Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Blinking Lights During the Day on Roads and Streets

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Blinking Lights During the Day on Roads and Streets

Old 08-11-20, 08:24 PM
  #126  
Litespud
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Chapel Hill NC
Posts: 1,683

Bikes: 2000 Litespeed Vortex Chorus 10, 1995 DeBernardi Cromor S/S

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 645 Post(s)
Liked 797 Times in 446 Posts
Originally Posted by Pop N Wood

Keep in mind the bicycle fatality rate in German is a fraction of what it is in the US.
Since the vast majority of cyclist- and pedestrian fatalities involve motor vehicles, this likely reflects the fact that, unlike the US, Germany has stringent driving test requirements, resulting in German drivers knowing how to, ya know, drive. Unlike the US. Also better cycling/walking infrastructure. Note that pedestrian deaths in Germany are also a fraction of those in the US. Is that those pesky pedestrians wearing flashing lights?
Litespud is offline  
Old 08-12-20, 07:42 AM
  #127  
wingless
Senior Member
 
wingless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 343

Bikes: 2011 Trek 1.2 + 2016 Trek 1.1 H2

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 16 Posts
My daytime operation uses blinking front and rear lights, with the rear set to one blink per second. For night operation I add a constant rear light to aid the driver in distance perspective.

My motor vehicle operation leads me to conclude that daytime blinking lights result in better visibility of the bicycle operator.
wingless is offline  
Old 08-12-20, 11:05 AM
  #128  
Pop N Wood
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,379

Bikes: 1982 Bianchi Sport SX, Rayleigh Tamland 1, Rans V-Rex recumbent, Fuji MTB, 80's Cannondale MTB with BBSHD ebike motor

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 667 Post(s)
Liked 529 Times in 355 Posts
Originally Posted by Litespud
Since the vast majority of cyclist- and pedestrian fatalities involve motor vehicles, this likely reflects the fact that, unlike the US, Germany has stringent driving test requirements, resulting in German drivers knowing how to, ya know, drive. Unlike the US. Also better cycling/walking infrastructure. Note that pedestrian deaths in Germany are also a fraction of those in the US. Is that those pesky pedestrians wearing flashing lights?
Certainly you already know the #1 killer of bicyclists in the US is SUV's and light trucks. You probably also know bicycle and pedestrian fatalities were going down in the US for years, but have been steadily increasing since the SUV craze took over in this country,

My guess is the higher roof lines of SUV's and light trucks make collisions with peds and bikes less survivable. But that is my conjecture.

So extrapolating to Germany, my guess is SUV's and in particular pickup trucks are a uniquely American phenomenon. Think maybe that has more to do with the varying fatality rate than flashing lights or more stringent driving test?

Honestly the only reason I brought up Germany was to show outlawing flashing lights won't lead to a massive slaughter of bicyclists.
Pop N Wood is offline  
Old 08-12-20, 11:59 AM
  #129  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,240
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4221 Post(s)
Liked 1,318 Times in 914 Posts
Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
Honestly the only reason I brought up Germany was to show outlawing flashing lights won't lead to a massive slaughter of bicyclists.
Absolutely no one said that it would.

Having no lights doesn't "lead to a massive slaughter of bicyclists".

Since Germans don't routinely use lights during the day, what you brought up seems to have no useful point.

​​​​​​
njkayaker is online now  
Old 08-12-20, 01:12 PM
  #130  
Pop N Wood
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,379

Bikes: 1982 Bianchi Sport SX, Rayleigh Tamland 1, Rans V-Rex recumbent, Fuji MTB, 80's Cannondale MTB with BBSHD ebike motor

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 667 Post(s)
Liked 529 Times in 355 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker
Since Germans don't routinely use lights during the day, what you brought up seems to have no useful point.​​​​​​
Guess you would need to go back and read the whole thread.
Pop N Wood is offline  
Old 08-12-20, 01:17 PM
  #131  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,240
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4221 Post(s)
Liked 1,318 Times in 914 Posts
Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
Guess you would need to go back and read the whole thread.
I did. Your comments about what the Germans do isn't useful.

Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
So extrapolating to Germany, my guess is SUV's and in particular pickup trucks are a uniquely American phenomenon. Think maybe that has more to do with the varying fatality rate than flashing lights or more stringent driving test?
If it has more to do with SUVs than flashing lights, it has more to do with SUVs than with steady lights.

So, from what you said here, there's no point in your mentioning the German law.

The Germans (and Americans) don't routinely use lights during the daytime at all.

That flashing lights are illegal in Germany doesn't really say anything about whether steady or flashing is better (they might just be restricting use of flashing lights to emergency use).

Last edited by njkayaker; 08-12-20 at 01:43 PM.
njkayaker is online now  
Old 08-13-20, 08:00 AM
  #132  
Pop N Wood
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,379

Bikes: 1982 Bianchi Sport SX, Rayleigh Tamland 1, Rans V-Rex recumbent, Fuji MTB, 80's Cannondale MTB with BBSHD ebike motor

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 667 Post(s)
Liked 529 Times in 355 Posts
A thread about whether blinking lights are safe or even a good idea. I bring up the fact Germany outlaws flashing lights on bikes and yet their safety record is enviably better than ours.

You honestly feel that isn't pertinent?

Yes, lots of things affect bicycle safety. I don't understand what you are going on about.
Pop N Wood is offline  
Old 08-13-20, 10:05 AM
  #133  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,240
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4221 Post(s)
Liked 1,318 Times in 914 Posts
Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
A thread about whether blinking lights are safe or even a good idea. I bring up the fact Germany outlaws flashing lights on bikes and yet their safety record is enviably better than ours.
You attributed their safety record to a lack of SUVs!

Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
You honestly feel that isn't pertinent?
You think it isn't pertinent!

Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
So extrapolating to Germany, my guess is SUV's and in particular pickup trucks are a uniquely American phenomenon. Think maybe that has more to do with the varying fatality rate than flashing lights or more stringent driving test?
If it's not lights, why mention lights? You aren't making any sense.

=========================

1- There's no indication that their safety record is due to not using flashing lights.
2- There's no indication that their safety record wouldn't be better if they used flashing lights.
3- The overall safety record (in Germany and the US) is mostly due to riders riding during the day without lights.

As it is, the relative safety record says nothing about whether people would be better of using flashing or steady lights.

Last edited by njkayaker; 08-13-20 at 10:13 AM.
njkayaker is online now  
Old 08-13-20, 10:52 AM
  #134  
Pop N Wood
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,379

Bikes: 1982 Bianchi Sport SX, Rayleigh Tamland 1, Rans V-Rex recumbent, Fuji MTB, 80's Cannondale MTB with BBSHD ebike motor

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 667 Post(s)
Liked 529 Times in 355 Posts
I don't know what to tell you but I think this conversation has run it's course.
Sorry we didn't connect.
Pop N Wood is offline  
Old 08-13-20, 11:03 AM
  #135  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,240
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4221 Post(s)
Liked 1,318 Times in 914 Posts
Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
I don't know what to tell you but I think this conversation has run it's course.
Sorry we didn't connect.
The problem is that you aren't making sense (that's on you).

Whatever the German law is does't mean people aren't better of using flashing lights. It doesn't say anything one way or another.
njkayaker is online now  
Likes For njkayaker:
Old 08-13-20, 01:11 PM
  #136  
livedarklions
Tragically Ignorant
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,094 Times in 5,053 Posts
Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
I don't know what to tell you but I think this conversation has run it's course.
Sorry we didn't connect.

I think the real issue is accident/fatality rate data anywhere, including the U.S. is going to be useless in this discussion because the number of people running flashing lights in daylight is next to nil.

Even if collision data was broken down that way, we likely wouldn't know whether any differences in numbers of people hit were reflecting anything other than there's a lot more riders without lights on the road.

Truth be told none of the data anyone has discussed here tells us anything about bicyclist safety. Even if laboratory tests demonstrate some minor differences in peripheral something or other, no one knows whether that translates to increased rider safety on the road to any significant degree, or if lack of ability to fix the position of the rider can cause more crashes. I just know that a lot of the logic on this thread and similar ones "proving" that strobes make people safer is so bad, I could drive a truck through it, and I have seen a number of people on roads and paths using these things in ways that are clearly idiotic. I realize that this is not supposed to be a thread about paths, but I had enough people post at me that they couldn't be bothered to switch off the strobe when they turned onto the path from the road that I think the subjects are pretty closely interrelated.
livedarklions is offline  
Likes For livedarklions:
Old 08-14-20, 08:39 AM
  #137  
Litespud
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Chapel Hill NC
Posts: 1,683

Bikes: 2000 Litespeed Vortex Chorus 10, 1995 DeBernardi Cromor S/S

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 645 Post(s)
Liked 797 Times in 446 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker
The problem is that you aren't making sense (that's on you).

Whatever the German law is does't mean people aren't better of using flashing lights. It doesn't say anything one way or another.
I'm not even sure that we haven't been misinterpreting the information provided in the original German link cited way back in the mists of time when this thread started. The link was to a rough and colloquial translation of the German legalese by an admitted non-lawyer, but the relevant quote was (Emphasis mine):

"Non-blinking front headlamp to illuminate the road of white or pale yellow color. A red rear taillight that stays lit when stationary and may blink (intensity 1 cd). In the USA, blinking lights are sold but they are not legal in Germany. [This said, we see all sorts of violations of this rule. And we know of no one who has been stopped for a violation of it.]"

I read this not that blinking lights per se are illegal, but they they're not legally adequate for use at night to illuminate the road (and I think we can all agree that flashers/blinkers and headlights fulfill different purposes - one to be seen with, and the other to see with). Since there is no legal requirement for any lighting during the day in Germany, according to the site, there's nothing in there that says that running a flasher/blinker during the day is actually illegal - just that you can't use one in lieu of a proper headlight. Not being a lawyer and not being fluent in German, let alone legal German, I don't know what German laws state specifically, but the original citation is ambiguous at best and shouldn't be the basis for any fact-based argument.
Litespud is offline  
Likes For Litespud:
Old 08-14-20, 10:05 AM
  #138  
mr_bill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,529
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2111 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times in 443 Posts
Sigh. There have been few studies that directly study DRL's on BICYCLES.


One only studied the conspicuity of "modern bicycle lights", TNO-DV 2008 C238.

”Knipperend gebruik van voorlampen verhoogt doorgaans hun opvallendheid.”
Which they translate as:
"In most cases flicker raises the conspicuity of front lights."
Which google translates as:
“Flashing use of headlamps usually increases their conspicuity.”
(A case where a machine did better at translating than a human.)

The only study that I'm aware of that attempted to study the efficacy of daytime running lights on bicycles remains Madsen et. al, Safety effects of permanent running lights for bicycles.

Note that they ONLY studied BLINKING daytime running lights. At the time of the study, REELIGHTs only blinked. (REELIGHT has since introduced non-blinking models powered by eddy currents or with battery buffers.)

"The incidence rate, including all recorded bicycle accidents with personal injury to the participating cyclist, is 19% lower for cyclists with permanent running lights mounted; indicating that the permanent bicycle running light significantly improves traffic safety for cyclists. The study shows that use of permanent bicycle running lights reduces the occurrence of multiparty accidents involving cyclists significantly."

Finally, in a cyclist safety training course run by the MBTA, instructors told participants that BLINKING DAYTIME LIGHTS makes it MUCH easier to see people on bikes.

Just a few personal observations:

In Amsterdam, few people use DRLs on their bicycles. While most have the required headlights and tailights mounted on bicycles, many many are nonfunctional. (OV-fiets lights are all functional, but nearly universally unused during the day.)

In Copenhagen on the other hand, bicycle DRLs are very prevalent, mostly older (and newer but cheaper) blinking REELIGHTs, and a few newer (but more expensive) steady REELIGHTs, plus some hub dynamo powered lights.

In Frankfurt, pretty much everyone on regular bicycles have the required hub dynamo powered and functioning StVZO lighting, but they use them at dawn/dusk/night. People on sports bikes generally have the permitted by law removable battery lights, and while they are more likely to be off during the day, I did see a few solid on or flashing during the day, depending on personal preferences of the rider or weather. (If the weather is nice, the lights might even have been left home.)

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 08-14-20 at 05:25 PM.
mr_bill is offline  
Likes For mr_bill:
Old 08-14-20, 10:05 AM
  #139  
noimagination
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 717
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 362 Post(s)
Liked 413 Times in 243 Posts
I live, and ride, and drive, in an area with quite a number of cyclists (NYC suburb). The number of bicycle riders has increased many-fold over the past 30 years.

When driving, I am scanning the traffic ahead, the road surface ahead, the traffic and other objects adjacent to/entering the road, the rear-view mirror. I am not staring at the oncoming road. In order of conspicuity while driving during the day:
1. Cyclists with flashing headlights.
2. Cyclists with steady headlights
3. Cyclists with blinking tail lights (can't remember seeing any cyclists using steady tail lights)
4. Cyclists without any lights
To me as a driver, the flashing day-time running lights make a cyclist more immediately noticeable than a steady light, and even more than no light at all. Based on that, I use a front flashing light while riding so that I'm more quickly noticeable to oncoming drivers and to drivers looking in my direction when entering the roadway. I agree that they are not required on MUPs, and I turn off my front light if I turn onto a MUP. (Although not a subject of the OP, I agree that flashing lights are useless to the rider at night (disorienting rather than illuminating) and can be blinding to oncoming traffic due to the larger contrast against a dark background to dark-adapted eyes.)

I have never been blinded or discomfited by any cycling light while driving or riding during the day time, except once or twice on MUPs when passing an oncoming cyclist at close proximity. There are lots of riders around, and I've seen lots of lights, but during the day I've never had a problem with lights on a bicycle. Admittedly, I don't stare fixedly at the oncoming light, any more than I stare fixedly at anything while driving. Once I've noticed the cyclist, I keep track of him as a normal part of my scan and in my peripheral vision, as I do any other object (moving or stationary).

I'm sorry, but, based on my experience, I have difficulty believing that a flashing front light during the day is blinding except at very close proximity. If you're not looking directly at it, and you shouldn't be, you should be scanning the road not looking fixedly at any object, then how can it blind you? If the oncoming rider is on the other side of the road, that is not close enough to be blinding. Perhaps a salmon might get close enough to be blinding for an instant, but I've never experienced that.

No one has ever told me that my light is blinding, but I have had a couple of people (not many) tell me that they noticed my light. In fact, the only time I had someone yell at me about my light was at night, a different light with no flashing mode, and I was walking my bike on the sidewalk (flat tire) approaching a car stopped at an intersection. Evidently they looked directly into my light from pretty close, and I admit that would be blinding.

Regarding the strobe effect and causing seizures: I would think this would be a danger if the driver/rider looked directly at the light and the frequency and intensity are high enough. I don't know how to tell if my flasher meets these criteria, though I do have it on a slow flashing mode, there is no "strobe" (flashing multiple times per second) mode on my light.

Sorry, I don't see a reason to stop using a flashing front day-time running light, and I do see a reason to continue to use it.
noimagination is offline  
Likes For noimagination:
Old 08-14-20, 10:51 AM
  #140  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,240
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4221 Post(s)
Liked 1,318 Times in 914 Posts
Originally Posted by Litespud
I'm not even sure that we haven't been misinterpreting the information provided in the original German link cited way back in the mists of time when this thread started. The link was to a rough and colloquial translation of the German legalese by an admitted non-lawyer, but the relevant quote was (Emphasis mine):

"Non-blinking front headlamp to illuminate the road of white or pale yellow color. A red rear taillight that stays lit when stationary and may blink (intensity 1 cd). In the USA, blinking lights are sold but they are not legal in Germany. [This said, we see all sorts of violations of this rule. And we know of no one who has been stopped for a violation of it.]"

I read this not that blinking lights per se are illegal, but they they're not legally adequate for use at night to illuminate the road (and I think we can all agree that flashers/blinkers and headlights fulfill different purposes - one to be seen with, and the other to see with). Since there is no legal requirement for any lighting during the day in Germany, according to the site, there's nothing in there that says that running a flasher/blinker during the day is actually illegal - just that you can't use one in lieu of a proper headlight. Not being a lawyer and not being fluent in German, let alone legal German, I don't know what German laws state specifically, but the original citation is ambiguous at best and shouldn't be the basis for any fact-based argument.
It's hard to find a good English reference for the bicycle light laws in Germany.

German Bicycle Laws

There's enough indication that one can't really buy flashing rear lights in Germany. That is some suggestion that they are illegal. The source you quoted suggests that they can flash if the bicycle is not moving.

It's the general understanding that they are (basically) illegal in Germany. And, if flashing rear lights aren't, I can't imagine that flashing front lights (irrespective of the purpose of illumination) would be legal. From my experience and observation riding in Germany, the Germans don't care about flashing rear red lights during the day.

In any case, that they are illegal in Germany doesn't mean it's because steady is better (as you appear to understand). Laws are compromises and have to work with other laws. So, absent a definitive source specifying the reason behind the German law, we can only guess what the reasons for the law are.
njkayaker is online now  
Old 08-16-20, 07:34 AM
  #141  
FREEBIRD1
Full Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 276
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked 208 Times in 106 Posts
The trails I ride on have many areas of overgrown trees which in some areas , especially on overcast days, make it almost impossible to see oncoming traffic. I appreciate the strobes of oncoming bikers, I can predict my path way faster, and can spot lone joggers with mine on. I've picked up the reflectors of trike riders I would have never seen until they were within 10 feet. To me, the safety factor outweighs the annoyance.
FREEBIRD1 is offline  
Old 08-17-20, 08:57 AM
  #142  
CoraSnyder
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 6
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
As a driver, I've never encountered bike lights that caused any problems. And I like bicyclists that use them as I often spot them from further away. I don't ride on paths and I don't understand why anyone would use lights on them during the day, but I haven't seen any issues with them on the road. I flash both front and rear during the day. The headlight stays on steady after dark. I ride mostly in rural areas and the one potential issue under those conditions are super bright rear flashers at night. But drivers have no problem with the low lumen rear flashers.
CoraSnyder is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.