bragi

Your solution is a bit suspect, but your analysis of the real problem is spot-on. The elephant in the room, something that no one is willing to discuss anymore, is population. In the final analysis, humans are like any other organism: they will aggressively consume as many resources as the environment will allow. If you have more people, and most of them have the means to obtain cars, buy really big dwellings and lots of clothes, and slaughter and eat a HUGE number of animals, guess what they're going to do?

Personally, I only eat meat a couple of times a month, and the same for eggs. I do what I can. Eventually, I can see myself avoiding these completely, for environmental and health reasons. If you try to take my yogurt and cheese away, though, I will kill you.

JusticeZero

Humans also have the quirk that they've discovered how to have their cake and eat it too, letting their mating instinct run happy and not having any of the children that would result from it. As a result, most industrialized nations are worried about a population collapse, and an inverted population pyramid of mostly elderly people and very few kids and young adults to support them. The population increases we've been seeing is currently due to increasing lifespans, not rampant breeding.

Roody

Concern about overpopulation is so 20th century!

Cosmoline

My goal is to implement a local-only meat rule, but around here that limits me to fish and whatever I can shoot. I need a bigger freezer to pull it off, as well. And a vacuum packer.

Hobartlemagne 

This probably is difficult in Alaska, but I find local meat at a nearby halal meat market. They buy from very close
local farms, and its the only place I've bought lamb that was slaughtered just the day before.

Roody

Are you sure you need a vacuum packer? When I was a kid (ahem...45 years ago...) vacuum packers didn't exist. But my grandparents bought a side of beef every year from my uncle and froze it. They wrapped it in white "freezer paper" and it kept very well for the entire year.

I have two question for you:

1. What kind of game and fish do you get there?
2. Is it true that it's so cold in Alaska that the freezers have heating elements in them?

TheKingFiphtin

I'm pretty sure fish isn't a vegetable, and eating fish negates the whole "vegetarian" title. Pescatarian is the correct term, and it is a very healthy way to live. Beware of eating seafood, though. The oceans are dangerously overfished, and the health of the seas are failing quickly. Freshwater fish are great, and usually very easy to find at the market. Bravo on cutting out red meat!

As far as not getting enough protien in a vegetarian diet, its a bunch of bunk. I've been vegetarian for almost ten years, and one of the healthiest people my doctor has ever seen. After talking with nutritionists and doing research, I found out that protein deffeciency is incredibly rare. The two big things that vegetarians risk are iron defficiency for women (not an issue for most men), and zinc defficiency in men (not an issue for most women). Vegans need to watch how much calcium and b12 they get, but otherwise are very healthy.

I'll have to track it down, but I recently read a study on the benefits on certain diets. The healthiest diet was a mostly vegetarian diet with small amounts of animal protien (2-3oz a day) and very limited dairy consumption. Next up was pescatarian (fish as only source of animal protien), followed by ovo- vegetarian (no meat, fish, or dairy, but eggs are ok). Vegan was in the top five, and rated FAR better than the average american diet. A lot of people bash the whole vegetarian thing, but there is a lot of research on the topic, and it's a pretty healthy diet overall as long as you are not stupid about it. I've known vegetarians and vegans that were very unhealthy. All they ate was junk food. They weren't any less healthy than some other friends I had with similar habits, but did eat meat. The whole thing is like biking. If you want to do it right, it takes effort and research, but is very worthwhile. I'll post the study this info came from (and correct any errors I might have made) when I find it.

atman

eating a healthy vegan diet is quite feasible, with some care and attention to detail. Helps to live somewhere that's supportive of that kind of thing. Eating vegetarian, or vegan, or subsisting largely on barbecue and high fructose corn syrup, are all food choices that are easy to make if culturally supported and hard to manage if everyone you know is tending in the other direction.

When I go to picnics and communal dinners, for example, there will be vegan food there as a matter of course. If the most vegan thing you can find is lettuce and unflavored potato chips (been there), it's a lifestyle that's challenging to maintain.

For me (and I'm not into debating it, just stating a perspective) choosing not to use animal products is a lot like choosing to forgo cars. If you are completely committed, won't even let a honey glaze pass your lips or get a ride somewhere, more power to you, but if you use, say, 1/10th of the meat you used to, that's 90% of the job done and plenty to make a difference both healthwise and environmentally. In either case, less is better, especially given how unbalanced things are right now.

spinninwheels

I read a book about three months ago by Dr. Arnold Ehret called the Mucusless Diet. Fascinating read! It kind of parallels an alkaline diet, but I would say a little more radical.

I made some changes in my diet at that time, which basically entailed giving up fish (again), cutting back on most grains, and eating copious amounts of fruit. I was vegetarian for about 5 years before I reinstated fish back in my diet in 2000. But a few months ago, I decided that fish had to go.

As stated here, there are plenty of healthy vegans, vegetarians, pescetarians and omnivores. Everything in moderation, including moderation, right?

I think one of the fastest and healthiest ways for America to improve their diet, would be to get rid of pop and white sugars. Unfortunately for the latter, that would involve a lot of processed foods. But in my opinion, that would be advantageous as well.

cutman

Right on. Since I started living with my vegetarian girlfriend, I've eaten less and less meat. And as a result, I've found I enjoy it more when I eat it only once in a while.

I'm not too crazy about the environmental impact meat carries. I've considered becoming a vegetarian, but instead I've adopted a different approach: I don't buy meat. Not at restaurants, not at the grocery store, not even the grass-fed beef at the farmer's market. This way I can partake of meat occasionally -- if I'm visiting my mother and she's making meatballs, or there's turkey sandwiches at a meeting at work -- but not drive up the demand for it because it's already been purchased.

Now that's what I call having your meat and eating it too.

EthanYQX

Vegetarianism for health makes little sense to me, since humans are designed to eat meat...

As long as you stay away from the fatty cuts of meat, you'll be arguably healthier than you could on a vegetarian diet without supplements.

Roody

This is the kind of statement that causes endless arguments. Humans aren't designed to eat a certain diet. Without getting into the issues of evolution and adaptation, I think it's pretty clear that early humans lived in many different habitats and were healthy and successful on many different diets. Java man probably ate mostly fruits and vegetables. Inuits ate mostly fish and whale blubber (fatty meats). Aztecs ate corn, chocolate and peppers. And so on. There was no one diet shared by all humans at any point in our existence.

Cosmoline

We have all kinds of f&g. Moose, both bears, caribou & reindeer, blacktail deer, some elk, tons of small game, fur bearers, etc etc. It's Alaska! As far as fish, we have BAR NONE the greatest on the planet and I live 20 feet from a major distribution center and packing house. The cheapest way to go is a meat boat out of Seward or Homer in around early July when the silver and lingcod season overlaps with the Halibut season. This was the take of halibut on a run I did in 2006:



The vacuum packer is mostly for fish. It improves the taste of home-frozen fish GREATLY. With beef it's not such a big deal but it will stop meat in general from getting that nasty freezer burn. The alternative is to smoke and I do a fair amount of that, but again it's most effecient if you can pack and freeze the excess and keep it for later.

We have good veges up here, including some famous world record size ones. Spuds are excellent, and many of the heartier dark green veges. What we lack entirely is FRUIT, apart from some wild berries. The supplies we get in are $$ and tend to be pretty well abused. So no real fruitarian options.

Roody

cosmoline,

Those halibut look pretty good, but I'm not sure about the green thing in the wheelbarrow with them. It sounds like local eating in Alaska would be difficult if you insisted on the standard American diet. But you could do well on a standard Alaskan diet. Smoked fish, grilled fish, baked fish, steamed fish, dried fish.... Throw in some bearclaws, moosetracks and Baked Alaska, and it wouldn't be too bad!

jcwitte

I guess I had the wrong idea of what a vegetarian diet consists of.

I am trying to watch the video "Meet your Meat" that is available on youtube, but my internet connection keeps cutting it off. I know that the makers of that video do have an agenda they are pushing. They are, of course, going to show clips that help them get their point across most effectively. The small portions of that video that I have seen makes me want to visit an actual large operation farm in order to get first hand knowledge of what conditions the animals truly are raised in. A friend of a friend of mine grew up on a pig farm, I might have to check it out next time I go home.

Roody

They're no longer called hog farms or chicken farms or whatever. They're now called CAFOs for confined (or concentrated) animal feeding operations.

Really.

crhilton

I don't see why you need to stop eating meat altogether. I'm shocked that the average person eats 8oz of meat a day, that's just far too much.
If it's all beef that's almost 700 calories... And a more reasonable 320 if it's all chicken. I think the recommended amount is 4oz a day for a 2000 calorie diet?

Anyway, an earlier poster mentioned free range meats. And maybe decrease intake with some legumes and other protein sources. But wow, give up meat. That's like giving up chocolate.

jcwitte

Well, I never really had much of a taste for meat anyway. I think organic free range meats along with cutting back might be another responsible option. Perhaps I'll still have meat on holidays like Thanksgiving, Christmas, and Easter and then I'll just be sure to buy the organic, environmentally friendly, and humanely raised meats and poultry. Although this last November, I was at a farmer's market in DC and the price of such a turkey made my jaw drop, so I may just stick with my original plan.

sprintcarblue

Growing up on a rural farming community, I am always kind of shocked at the assumptions that are often made from people. Just some first hand information on what happens (at least in rural minnesota/south dakota)

1. Beef cattle are almost always exclusively pasture/silage fed. They get treated pretty well for the most part. The crops used to fed these animals (this goes for all of these animals) are the same ways used to harvest corn and soybeans which goes from everything to kelloggs to the feeder at the chicken farm. Farmers keep portions of their crop to feed animals and then sell the rest, usually.

2. Pigs, Chickens (meat and eggs), and Turkeys are always in confinements. Pigs more so as of in the last ten years. I really really honestly don't feel that chickens and turkeys care about where they are as long as they have food. Some places in extreme cases they are held in cages (egg production this is true, too), but most of the time it's a giant shed that they run freely in.

Pigs are treated like complete crap. I actually feel bad for pigs in large confinements. The are given little room, and the workers are often very rough. I have known many people who work in these facilities and they suck, and they are very straining on the worker and animal. It is possible to find more "free range" pigs in areas. My family usually gets this stuff, we never really buy pork.

The same goes for Dairy Cattle. There are a few non corporate farmers in the area that have free range cattle, and they are usually treated pretty well. Workers tend to be high school kids, and professional farm hands. They work like clock work, they come in at a certain time to be milk, are milked, and then leave back out the the pasture.

On the otherhand, in the last 10 years, along with the hog confinements corporate dairy farmers have come along and put a large strain on the smaller farmers. Not only that, but they often hire illegal immigrants (good or bad, most high schoolers are too lazy to work real jobs anyways) and the animals are confined to small conditions, and are walked the the milking carousel and then back to their tiny pens and the cows will never see the light of day.

Anyways, I do not think the problem is such a simple and specific problem. Being vegetarian is not going to save the world. The crops being produced will be produced which goes into everything from bread bread to soy milk, to cereal etc. It is good to be aware of what is happening, good or bad, and make an educated decision based off of non-extremist exaggerations (peta and the such)

gosmsgo

I want to clear up a couple of things for you city folk who believe anything fed to you.

#1. Animals that are not on antibiotics are often sick and often die. Anyone concerned about animal welfare would appreciate the use of antibiotics in animal feed. The amish around these parts refuse to use any antibiotics and their animals often get sick and die from almost anything. Half of their calves get scours and walk around in pain. These are cattle running around in the pasture and not in a feed lot.

#2. Cattle only spend a few weeks of their lives in a feedlot. They spend the first 1.5 years of their life on grass. Every time I read an article like that they make it sound as if cattle are raised in these feed lots.

#3. The "cattle have stomachs designed to eat grass and not grain" was just completely ignorant of the workings of a ruminant system.

Its a bunch of bull**** written by a person who never wondered outside of NYC but seems to think they know a thing or two about agriculture.

My wife is a veterinarian and I have a BS degree in animal science. If anyone has any actual questions about livestock production and they have an open enough mind to ponder that they might have something to learn give me a holler.

Do not learn about agriculture from the New York Times or a bumper sticker.

gosmsgo

Where is a dairy farm where the cows never go outside. I'm very curious to learn about that.

sprintcarblue

There are two that I know of in South Dakota, Hillside Dairy I think one of them is called. It is a large company that came from California. I know a lot of local dairy farmers and local people were upset because it makes the 5 square miles smell like terrible things and they are pretty shady about overall treatment. Believe it or not, a lot of smaller farmers and their dairy cattle have pretty good relationships. Unfortunately I cannot find any website information about it.

*Perhaps like you said they bring in cattle from their breeding places, but I know for a fact they don't have any pastures in the surrounding area near the facilities.

spinninwheels

Though I may agree with some of your points (not all), I find this one humourous.

There are many problems, on many levels, that face humanity and our environment. The point that was trying to be made, that may have been lost, is the amount of energy, land and water that is takes to raise livestock, compared to produce, intended to go directly to feeding people.

Though being vegetarian alone wouldn't save the world, it would be in our best interests. Especially when dealing with finite resources and dwindling supplies of fresh water.

I'm not advocating vegetarianism is for everyone. But I do think the North American diet is extremely unhealthy, and people have to take responsibility for what they eat, moral or ethical issues aside. I really don't think the body was intended to ingest so much processed food, as well as excessive amounts of protein.

sprintcarblue

I find this one humourous.

I can be a funny guy! It was being somewhat sarcastic. But I feel people do put too much emphasis on vegetarianism as far as "saving the world". Do it because you don't like the taste, because you feel you don't need it for health reasons or whatever other *educated, non world saving* reason.


There are many problems, on many levels, that face humanity and our environment. The point that was trying to be made, that may have been lost, is the amount of energy, land and water that is takes to raise livestock, compared to produce, intended to go directly to feeding people.

Here is the problem. People honestly must assume livestock is taken care of like a family dog getting special processed food and faucet water daily. Cattle feed most of the year through the natural vegetation and drink from man made stockponds, rivers and streams. They have thousands and thousands of acres of non inhabited grassland. These resources are not being used by people, nor are people even trying to harvest these resources. (besides a local town or two) They sometimes get grain in the winter but is the farmers corn or silage straight out of the field, anyways, it is nothing special. I don't see how much of anything is being wasted. (have you even been to eastern wyoming?!) You also have to realize that before cattle there were thousands of buffalo, antelope and various other creatures that lived off of the land in the same way (beef) cattle do now. We are creating any of the problems, not the animals.



I'm not advocating vegetarianism is for everyone. But I do think the North American diet is extremely unhealthy, and people have to take responsibility for what they eat, moral or ethical issues aside. I really don't think the body was intended to ingest so much processed food, as well as excessive amounts of protein.

I don't disagree with you here. Nothing is more disgusting than all of the processed and chemically treated food that is put out. If I could live off of fresh market meat, I definitely would as a lot of other people would I am sure. The extra price you pay would still be a legitimate cost if you bought proper portions of meat.

Lamplight

I have learned a lot from this thread; very interesting. I have considered trying a no-meat diet, but that would leave me eating nothing but wheat and dairy products all the time, because I rarely eat fruits or vegetables. I don't eat nearly as much meat as most people I know, and I rarely eat meat that isn't turkey, chicken, or eggs. I like fish but can't eat it because of a strange allergic reaction. But what I eat most are things like bread, cheese, cereal, peanut butter, etc. It can't be very good for me but I just don't like many other kinds of food. I can stand corn or green beans occasionally, but if I eat them very often I get tired of it very quickly, and I really don't like any fruit much at all. Ironically, I also hate steak, roast, pork chops, fried chicken, etc. Basically any meat that is still close to its original form makes me gag if I try to eat it.