Help an old tourer understand something
#101
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Yeah, the bikepackers that I have met when I was car camping next to a popular single track route were carrying no more than four days of food or maybe five at most. And they were all wearing backpacks because their bikes could not carry enough volume or weight. And they all seemed to run out of water every day before they made their destination.
#102
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The rooster tail bikepacking bags that shoot up and out off the back of a bike make me chuckle because something like a Carradice bag is easier to pack, sits closer to the bike, sways less with a simple support, and holds more. Wizard Works Shazam, Carradice, even a Jammer or Zeitgeist.
These are 15l and 16.5l.
These are 15l and 16.5l.
#103
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Thanks, but I am aware of the Carradice brackets, such as the Bagman.
I have been surprised how many people want to use the long skinny bags like the bags that you cite, then complain that they do not like the way they sway back and forth. My Carradice bag never had any side to side sway that I could notice. The one in my photo was a smaller one, but I have used a bigger Carradice bag for touring.
Someone I met on a tour had a DIY bracket to stop the swaying of his long skinny saddle pack, I took a photo. This also kept it from rubbing on his tire.
I have been surprised how many people want to use the long skinny bags like the bags that you cite, then complain that they do not like the way they sway back and forth. My Carradice bag never had any side to side sway that I could notice. The one in my photo was a smaller one, but I have used a bigger Carradice bag for touring.
Someone I met on a tour had a DIY bracket to stop the swaying of his long skinny saddle pack, I took a photo. This also kept it from rubbing on his tire.
Last edited by JohnJ80; 01-09-24 at 06:04 PM.
#104
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In post 89 above, I had a photo of my Carradice Pendle.
Another DIY support I made below, also for the Pendle on my road bike which lacked loops on the Brooks saddle. I think I used 5/16 inch diameter aluminum rod for the support under the bag. This one is also on a stem with appropriate shim to fit on a seatpost.
My Nelson Long Flap sitting on top of a pair of Ortliebs, that was where I put most of our food on this trip.
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It's bike dependent as well. Bikepacking started as I recall as an off-road adventure, where a touring bike might have been the poorer choice compared to a mt bike with larger tires plus maybe suspension. Such bikes typically cannot easily have panniers attached, especially if using a full suspension, so the alternative is a different bag system. I find the bikepacking bag designs to be very creative and useful, albeit with somewhat less capacity for food, compared to panniers, thus a limit on trip duration potenially. There a now a lot of variations and methods to mount racks and bags and variations in the type of bikes used to offer up any solution.
However on trips that are longer than 5 days and where I have to actually cook something, you are entirely correct about the limitations of bikepacking bags. They really are poor carrying stuff efficiently. Every night is an exercise in trying to remember where some vital item for meal preparation is stored and every morning is a chore in trying to remember how all that stuff goes back in the bag.
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#107
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Meh, stuff comes and goes. Folks try new things and reconsider old ways. Today's bikepacking set-ups look much like the photos and drawings of cycletourists in the pre-Good Roads era.
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#108
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Some interesting posts here. I was questioning why someone would avoid rear panniers with the reasons like single track, aerodynamics, etc, when they load up the forks with bags (while technically not panniers) does this not negate the reason?
For example, with my logic, I would put a rear rack, ditch the frame bag , have water more readily handy and ride more comfortably.
It's just my opinion, but when I see something that does not compute, I try to understand
For example, with my logic, I would put a rear rack, ditch the frame bag , have water more readily handy and ride more comfortably.
It's just my opinion, but when I see something that does not compute, I try to understand
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Yeah, the bikepackers that I have met when I was car camping next to a popular single track route were carrying no more than four days of food or maybe five at most. And they were all wearing backpacks because their bikes could not carry enough volume or weight. And they all seemed to run out of water every day before they made their destination.
Last edited by str; 01-12-24 at 04:46 AM.
#110
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Some interesting posts here. I was questioning why someone would avoid rear panniers with the reasons like single track, aerodynamics, etc, when they load up the forks with bags (while technically not panniers) does this not negate the reason?
For example, with my logic, I would put a rear rack, ditch the frame bag , have water more readily handy and ride more comfortably.
It's just my opinion, but when I see something that does not compute, I try to understand
For example, with my logic, I would put a rear rack, ditch the frame bag , have water more readily handy and ride more comfortably.
It's just my opinion, but when I see something that does not compute, I try to understand
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#111
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Some interesting posts here. I was questioning why someone would avoid rear panniers with the reasons like single track, aerodynamics, etc, when they load up the forks with bags (while technically not panniers) does this not negate the reason?
For example, with my logic, I would put a rear rack, ditch the frame bag , have water more readily handy and ride more comfortably.
It's just my opinion, but when I see something that does not compute, I try to understand
For example, with my logic, I would put a rear rack, ditch the frame bag , have water more readily handy and ride more comfortably.
It's just my opinion, but when I see something that does not compute, I try to understand
If the bike has full suspension, a rear rack can be problematic. And if there is no rear suspension, too much weight behind the rear axle and up high on a rack can give the bike pretty poor handling.
If you look at some of the tour divide race bikes, you see that some are experimenting with extremely minimalist and very light rear racks and small panniers to accomplish what you are suggesting.
#112
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I will carry food for more than 4 days maybe crossing the Andes from Peru to Patagonia, when there is really no supply for a long time. Until then I love to taste a nicely made traditional meal and a bottle of wine, in little villages talking to locals. And if one is on a route where one has shops near buy, why carry food for longer? In that case I would prefer to buy fresh stuff.
When I go backpacking with mostly dehydrated light weight food, it still weighs almost two pounds (~~0.9kg) per day and that is with a calorie deficiency. So, good luck with that plan to cross the Andes if you are using bikepacking gear.
I have carried over two weeks of food on a bike in the interior of Iceland where you could not buy much of anything, it was a heavy load. And most of it was dehydrated.
#113
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Not exactly sure what you mean by “N.A. cycletouring” but I’d put the trailer phase closer to 30 years ago…mid 90s. Revelate Designs kicked off the current bikepacking bags craze around 2007.
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#114
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#115
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Some interesting posts here. I was questioning why someone would avoid rear panniers with the reasons like single track, aerodynamics, etc, when they load up the forks with bags (while technically not panniers) does this not negate the reason?
For example, with my logic, I would put a rear rack, ditch the frame bag , have water more readily handy and ride more comfortably.
It's just my opinion, but when I see something that does not compute, I try to understand
For example, with my logic, I would put a rear rack, ditch the frame bag , have water more readily handy and ride more comfortably.
It's just my opinion, but when I see something that does not compute, I try to understand
On other trips, I’ve used a set of micropanniers that are large enough to carry 4 days of freeze-dry meals but small enough to be way up and out of the way.
The pictures that you’ve provided illustrates the problems I have with bikepacking bags for on road use as well as road use. The load is too high which makes the handling of the bike awkward. I’ve gone over the bars many times due to the higher load. It’s not optimal.
I’ve also tried a bag mounted on the frame to avoid the fork leg bag. That has problems as well. In this case, the front wheel kept hitting the bag on big hits. I wasn’t really worried about the bag stopping the wheel but it is a bit disconcerting when it happens.
If my travels are mainly on pavement or are on dirt roads, rail trails, or tow paths, this is my preferred set up. I’d much rather use panniers for their ease of use and organization on really long trips. They are easier to pack and easier to move. This particular picture was taken on the bridge across the Potomac at Harper’s Ferry. Getting the bike up and down the spiral stairs is damned difficult. I did take the bike up the stairs fully loaded.
I went back down the stairs in two trips with bags in hand. Much easier. I couldn’t imagine how to do that with bikepacking bags.
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#116
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https://www.renehersecycles.com/aero...orld-bicycles/
Cycling About did some sniffing around on this topic as well.
https://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-d...sting-results/
#117
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Sums up the major flaw with bikepacking bags. And the weight has been moved even higher. They also are being used on bikes that aren’t really designed to carry higher loads than the rider alone.
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#118
aka Timi
All in all though, it’s quite a lot of food to carry. It gets lighter until it’s time to restock. That’s basically all I eat on month long trips. Boring, some would say, but cheap and nutritious. I don’t like restaurants.
Hopefully, this was at least one answer to your question 😊
Last edited by imi; 01-12-24 at 12:03 PM.
#119
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I have not used a bike packing type saddlebag, but I have used the larger Carradice saddle bags, specifically the Nelson Long Flap. And even with a lot of weight in that bag, the weight was supported by the attachment to the saddle and another attachment to the bike at the seatpost to prevent sway. That did not impair handling at all.
In my comment, I was commenting on that "tail wagging the dog" feeling you sometimes will get with a flexible bike frame if the weight on the rack is far back and up high.
But, I did note in a previous post in this thread that I have heard people complain about side to side sway with bikepacking saddlebags, perhaps that was what you were referring to?
#120
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That was your response to me saying: And if there is no rear suspension, too much weight behind the rear axle and up high on a rack can give the bike pretty poor handling.
I have not used a bike packing type saddlebag, but I have used the larger Carradice saddle bags, specifically the Nelson Long Flap. And even with a lot of weight in that bag, the weight was supported by the attachment to the saddle and another attachment to the bike at the seatpost to prevent sway. That did not impair handling at all.
In my comment, I was commenting on that "tail wagging the dog" feeling you sometimes will get with a flexible bike frame if the weight on the rack is far back and up high.
But, I did note in a previous post in this thread that I have heard people complain about side to side sway with bikepacking saddlebags, perhaps that was what you were referring to?
I have not used a bike packing type saddlebag, but I have used the larger Carradice saddle bags, specifically the Nelson Long Flap. And even with a lot of weight in that bag, the weight was supported by the attachment to the saddle and another attachment to the bike at the seatpost to prevent sway. That did not impair handling at all.
In my comment, I was commenting on that "tail wagging the dog" feeling you sometimes will get with a flexible bike frame if the weight on the rack is far back and up high.
But, I did note in a previous post in this thread that I have heard people complain about side to side sway with bikepacking saddlebags, perhaps that was what you were referring to?
Sway has little to do with that and putting the bag on a rack on the seatpost wouldn’t solve the problem either. In fact, a bag like the Carradice would exacerbate the problem because it prevents moving back off the saddle which isn’t something that the narrower seat bag like those from Revelate do.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
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Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#121
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Oh, I understand. I do not have a dedicated mountain bike, do not have the experience that you have. The few trips where I have been doing mountain biking, I used my heavy touring bike. On that the frame is designed for either the solid fork that came with it or a 100mm suspension fork. And I have used that for a few trips with a suspension fork. But it is a heavy steel bike, long chainstays, the Rohloff hub and heavy rims likely help hold it down too. I have not had any rear wheel lift problems, but if a hill looked that nasty to me, I would be inclined to walk the bike down the hill instead of risk riding it. I have walked it down a few of the hills in Canyonlands.
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I apologize for not reading all the posts, just too many posts and not enough time in a day.
There are many ways to pack a bike, and it could depend on what kind of bike camping you'll be doing.
I sort of agree with you about concerns of having too much weight up front, it definitely will make the front brakes work a lot harder, and put more stress on the headset, plus make steering much more difficult with slow handling.
Supposedly the idea weight distribution is 40r 60f to 50/50 but some bikes do better with a different combination, so you have to experiment with your load placement to see what your bike likes.
My 2019 Masi Giramondo preferred a weight placement of 80r and 20f, but there was something wrong with that frame because it would shimmy like crazy, and that weight distribution reduced it but did not eliminate it. When the bike shop guy rode the bike loaded he determined there was something wrong with the frame and it was dangerous to ride loaded, so Haro replaced the frame and fork this last couple of months, I haven't had a chance to load it and ride it due to the cold weather. But Haro was extremely quick at replacing the frame and fork which leads me to believe they might have known something was wrong with the steel, and were replacing them without asking questions as people complained. Most buyers probably didn't buy the bikes to tour on, so they'll never know there was a problem with the frame, which I think was the case because the shaking got worse the longer I had the bike.
At least Haro was quick and nice about replacing the frame and fork, the only other time I ever had a warranty issue was on a bike made by Orbea, the scandium frame started to crack at the top of the head tube radiated downward about a 1/4 of inch from the headset, the bike was 8 months old when I noticed the crack, Orbea refused to replace the frame under warranty, their logic was the frame failed due to fatigue and the warranty didn't cover that! Even the bike shop guy was surprised that Haro responded the way they did, he said most bike makers will go out of their way not to make good on their warranties.
There are many ways to pack a bike, and it could depend on what kind of bike camping you'll be doing.
I sort of agree with you about concerns of having too much weight up front, it definitely will make the front brakes work a lot harder, and put more stress on the headset, plus make steering much more difficult with slow handling.
Supposedly the idea weight distribution is 40r 60f to 50/50 but some bikes do better with a different combination, so you have to experiment with your load placement to see what your bike likes.
My 2019 Masi Giramondo preferred a weight placement of 80r and 20f, but there was something wrong with that frame because it would shimmy like crazy, and that weight distribution reduced it but did not eliminate it. When the bike shop guy rode the bike loaded he determined there was something wrong with the frame and it was dangerous to ride loaded, so Haro replaced the frame and fork this last couple of months, I haven't had a chance to load it and ride it due to the cold weather. But Haro was extremely quick at replacing the frame and fork which leads me to believe they might have known something was wrong with the steel, and were replacing them without asking questions as people complained. Most buyers probably didn't buy the bikes to tour on, so they'll never know there was a problem with the frame, which I think was the case because the shaking got worse the longer I had the bike.
At least Haro was quick and nice about replacing the frame and fork, the only other time I ever had a warranty issue was on a bike made by Orbea, the scandium frame started to crack at the top of the head tube radiated downward about a 1/4 of inch from the headset, the bike was 8 months old when I noticed the crack, Orbea refused to replace the frame under warranty, their logic was the frame failed due to fatigue and the warranty didn't cover that! Even the bike shop guy was surprised that Haro responded the way they did, he said most bike makers will go out of their way not to make good on their warranties.
#123
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My 2019 Masi Giramondo preferred a weight placement of 80r and 20f, but there was something wrong with that frame because it would shimmy like crazy, and that weight distribution reduced it but did not eliminate it. When the bike shop guy rode the bike loaded he determined there was something wrong with the frame and it was dangerous to ride loaded, so Haro replaced the frame and fork this last couple of months, I haven't had a chance to load it and ride it due to the cold weather. But Haro was extremely quick at replacing the frame and fork which leads me to believe they might have known something was wrong with the steel, and were replacing them without asking questions as people complained. Most buyers probably didn't buy the bikes to tour on, so they'll never know there was a problem with the frame, which I think was the case because the shaking got worse the longer I had the bike.
At least Haro was quick and nice about replacing the frame and fork, the only other time I ever had a warranty issue was on a bike made by Orbea, the scandium frame started to crack at the top of the head tube radiated downward about a 1/4 of inch from the headset, the bike was 8 months old when I noticed the crack, Orbea refused to replace the frame under warranty, their logic was the frame failed due to fatigue and the warranty didn't cover that! Even the bike shop guy was surprised that Haro responded the way they did, he said most bike makers will go out of their way not to make good on their warranties.
My 2019 Masi Giramondo preferred a weight placement of 80r and 20f, but there was something wrong with that frame because it would shimmy like crazy, and that weight distribution reduced it but did not eliminate it. When the bike shop guy rode the bike loaded he determined there was something wrong with the frame and it was dangerous to ride loaded, so Haro replaced the frame and fork this last couple of months, I haven't had a chance to load it and ride it due to the cold weather. But Haro was extremely quick at replacing the frame and fork which leads me to believe they might have known something was wrong with the steel, and were replacing them without asking questions as people complained. Most buyers probably didn't buy the bikes to tour on, so they'll never know there was a problem with the frame, which I think was the case because the shaking got worse the longer I had the bike.
At least Haro was quick and nice about replacing the frame and fork, the only other time I ever had a warranty issue was on a bike made by Orbea, the scandium frame started to crack at the top of the head tube radiated downward about a 1/4 of inch from the headset, the bike was 8 months old when I noticed the crack, Orbea refused to replace the frame under warranty, their logic was the frame failed due to fatigue and the warranty didn't cover that! Even the bike shop guy was surprised that Haro responded the way they did, he said most bike makers will go out of their way not to make good on their warranties.
I had a first year of production Surly LHT that Surly refused to warranty. A frame builder explained to me in much more detail than I understood how the welder had their heat settings all wrong when they welded the bottom bracket shell. Made the bike handle like a wet noodle with a heavy load. The frame was so soft that if you pushed hard on a drive side pedal that the chain would rub on the front derailleur and a couple times it downshifted by itself because of that when I pedaled hard.
I eventually put the frame in a metal recycling bin. I did not want to pass that troublesome frame on to someone else.
#124
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You are very lucky you got a new frame.
I had a first year of production Surly LHT that Surly refused to warranty. A frame builder explained to me in much more detail than I understood how the welder had their heat settings all wrong when they welded the bottom bracket shell. Made the bike handle like a wet noodle with a heavy load. The frame was so soft that if you pushed hard on a drive side pedal that the chain would rub on the front derailleur and a couple times it downshifted by itself because of that when I pedaled hard.
I eventually put the frame in a metal recycling bin. I did not want to pass that troublesome frame on to someone else.
I had a first year of production Surly LHT that Surly refused to warranty. A frame builder explained to me in much more detail than I understood how the welder had their heat settings all wrong when they welded the bottom bracket shell. Made the bike handle like a wet noodle with a heavy load. The frame was so soft that if you pushed hard on a drive side pedal that the chain would rub on the front derailleur and a couple times it downshifted by itself because of that when I pedaled hard.
I eventually put the frame in a metal recycling bin. I did not want to pass that troublesome frame on to someone else.
As to the idea that using wrong heat settings during welding would turn a frame into a wet noodle---I hope you'll post that claim in the Framebuilders section. I'd love to see what our resident experts have to say. Seems implausible to me, but I'm not a frame builder.
#125
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And my steel rando bike and steel road bike are both much stiffer in the seat tube and bottom bracket area, those frames were not built to be stiff enough for touring yet that part of their frames are stiffer than the LHT that Surly refused to warranty. The frame was defective.