Exercise and sleep
03-07-18, 01:03 AM
#26
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I read a few posts on BF after a nice bike ride and fall to sleep almost immediately lol..
03-07-18, 10:55 AM
#27
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I've had sleep problems my entire life. Usual OTC sleep aids with Diphenhydramine might work for a day or two but then they actually keep me awake and/or sap my energy the next day. A year ago I started using some with Doxylamine and that actually works good, but I have to take like three of them. But I have to sleep so I take it.
I got some prescribed 25g Promethazine for nausea. I took one of those and I was out like a light. I started using half of one at bedtime and was sleeping for 8 hours straight with no hangover effect. Best stuff ever. I looked it up and the Sominex that is sold in the UK uses Promethazine. In the USA Sominex uses Diphenhydramine. It's too bad I can't get Promethazine over the counter here.
I got some prescribed 25g Promethazine for nausea. I took one of those and I was out like a light. I started using half of one at bedtime and was sleeping for 8 hours straight with no hangover effect. Best stuff ever. I looked it up and the Sominex that is sold in the UK uses Promethazine. In the USA Sominex uses Diphenhydramine. It's too bad I can't get Promethazine over the counter here.
Taking an anticholinergic for the equivalent of three years or more was associated with a 54% higher dementia risk than taking the same dose for three months or less.
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03-08-18, 05:51 AM
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My go to solution to settle me down and get a great 6 hours of sleep oh so MANY years ago when I was shouldered with lots of daily life pressures was a little pill called Midol. Did wonders for this guy that's not mentioned on the box. 
03-08-18, 08:32 AM
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FWIW, I had a bunch of issues that I found out that were directly related to my sleep patterns. My doctor did a sleep test not once, but twice over the last 10 years. One of these was done before I starting riding my bike and the other was done about 4 years ago while I had cranked up the mileage.
It was found that I had severe sleep apnea. This made total sense since my BP was up and I was waking up many times during the night. They found I was stopping breathing more than 30 times a hour. This constant up and down with my heart never let it sufficiently rest and hence I was always tired mid afternoon and could use a nap.
This resulted in a CPAP. First try sucked and I did not use it. After the second test, I made myself do it and now after 3+ years of 100% useage I sleep really well. My average is almost 8 hours a night. My incidents have went from over 30 to now just one per hour. Note, the average person stops breathing about 3 times an hour so I am better than that.
The other issue with this is that after riding the bike these years, the amount of air pressure that is required to keep my airway open was cut in half from that first test to what I am at now. So, the biking helped greatly.
Now, I do also suffer a bit of the old male syndrome of having to get up etc. My urologist said if it goes to more than 2 a night he will look at it more seriously. I usually get up once and many nights, like last night I make it thru the night.
The HBP is another issue that I have and that has not gone away even with cycling and the cpap. I am under meds for that, but it is under control. I was hoping to get off the meds with increased cycling, but that has not happened. I think that problem is more being driven by my weight but it is incredibly difficult to drop weight even riding 100+ miles a week with low T. Yes, I have that too. Typical old age male syndrome.
So, if you are not sleeping well even after a big workout and you are 45+, you should definitely look into a sleep study. I think in the long run, my sleep studies have saved my life. My father also had severe apnea and never did anything about it and was constantly falling asleep during the day. If you snore, you have some degree of apnea.
Waking up a lot during the night "could" be a sign that your brain is not getting enough oxygen and it calls down to the heart to start pumping more blood and that is when you wake up. So, it is two fold.
As I said for me, I sleep really well now. I have gotten used to the machine and it is now (sadly) a part of my life but I have learned to live with it. The alternative is not waking up from one of my episodes.
Message is, pay attention to your symptoms, they usually mean something. Falling asleep is one thing, staying asleep is another and getting up 3 or more times a night to use the bathroom is yet another. It sucks getting old, but the key is learning to live with all the changes which are all symptoms of getting older. If you are really tired mid afternoon and could fall asleep like after lunch, this is another indicator you might have a sleeping disorder.
john
It was found that I had severe sleep apnea. This made total sense since my BP was up and I was waking up many times during the night. They found I was stopping breathing more than 30 times a hour. This constant up and down with my heart never let it sufficiently rest and hence I was always tired mid afternoon and could use a nap.
This resulted in a CPAP. First try sucked and I did not use it. After the second test, I made myself do it and now after 3+ years of 100% useage I sleep really well. My average is almost 8 hours a night. My incidents have went from over 30 to now just one per hour. Note, the average person stops breathing about 3 times an hour so I am better than that.
The other issue with this is that after riding the bike these years, the amount of air pressure that is required to keep my airway open was cut in half from that first test to what I am at now. So, the biking helped greatly.
Now, I do also suffer a bit of the old male syndrome of having to get up etc. My urologist said if it goes to more than 2 a night he will look at it more seriously. I usually get up once and many nights, like last night I make it thru the night.
The HBP is another issue that I have and that has not gone away even with cycling and the cpap. I am under meds for that, but it is under control. I was hoping to get off the meds with increased cycling, but that has not happened. I think that problem is more being driven by my weight but it is incredibly difficult to drop weight even riding 100+ miles a week with low T. Yes, I have that too. Typical old age male syndrome.
So, if you are not sleeping well even after a big workout and you are 45+, you should definitely look into a sleep study. I think in the long run, my sleep studies have saved my life. My father also had severe apnea and never did anything about it and was constantly falling asleep during the day. If you snore, you have some degree of apnea.
Waking up a lot during the night "could" be a sign that your brain is not getting enough oxygen and it calls down to the heart to start pumping more blood and that is when you wake up. So, it is two fold.
As I said for me, I sleep really well now. I have gotten used to the machine and it is now (sadly) a part of my life but I have learned to live with it. The alternative is not waking up from one of my episodes.
Message is, pay attention to your symptoms, they usually mean something. Falling asleep is one thing, staying asleep is another and getting up 3 or more times a night to use the bathroom is yet another. It sucks getting old, but the key is learning to live with all the changes which are all symptoms of getting older. If you are really tired mid afternoon and could fall asleep like after lunch, this is another indicator you might have a sleeping disorder.
john
03-08-18, 10:01 AM
#30
Senior Member
True, all a good heads-up pointing to several issues that 20-30 mile rides, two or more times a week are not going to completely resolve. But, little things can help like, finishing off a hot shower with a cool down, ride early so that alcohol consumption afterwards if any and not more than e.g., ~20 ounces of cool craft bear on tap is done early, followed by a healthy dinner -- I'd say, at least by late afternoon-- watching the weight, spending two hours on the web before bed catching up on the bike forums and not sleeping on your back may help in getting a good nights sleep.
03-08-18, 10:56 AM
#31
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No electronic devices in the bedroom. A book or crossword puzzle. Keep the bedroom as dark, cool, and quiet as reasonably possible.
03-08-18, 11:51 AM
#32
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Please be very careful with those. I'll try to summarize my usual 3,000 word diatribe against using these types of medications too often. But I've personally witnessed the devastating effects on my own family so I have a personal stake in this information.
These are all powerful anti-cholinergics. While this type of drug can serve a legitimate medical function it should be used only under medical supervision and never as sleep aids. These can hasten the onset of dementia and worsen the effects. The transition from responding normally to over-reacting to a single dose can occur unexpectedly. The older we get, the more dangerous the potential reactions.
...
Frankly I'd rather lose some sleep than risk taking anti-cholinergics. Occasionally I'll take melatonin, and find I need less of it as I've gotten older.
These are all powerful anti-cholinergics. While this type of drug can serve a legitimate medical function it should be used only under medical supervision and never as sleep aids. These can hasten the onset of dementia and worsen the effects. The transition from responding normally to over-reacting to a single dose can occur unexpectedly. The older we get, the more dangerous the potential reactions.
...
Frankly I'd rather lose some sleep than risk taking anti-cholinergics. Occasionally I'll take melatonin, and find I need less of it as I've gotten older.
03-08-18, 12:59 PM
#33
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Years ago there was a version of Midol that contained a multi-function chemical similar to ephedrine that could suppress the appetite, increase blood pressure, affect the dopamine level and other side effects.
Now there are several different formulations of Midol, each slightly different, none of which is any better suited to treating menstrual cramps than a simple dose of ibuprofen. One contains yet another old style and obsolete antihistamine with anticholinergic properties that should be avoided, if not outright banned. Another version of Midol contains diphenhydramine, which should also be avoided as a sleep aid.
Some of those old style antihistamines can interact with psychiatric prescriptions for antidepressants and other meds used to treat bipolar disorder, addiction, etc. These interactions may worsen the symptoms of depression or cause other problems.
Some old style antihistamines like diphenhydramine do serve a legitimate purpose in the first aid kit. I've used the oral and topical ointment versions to treat insect bites, stings and reactions to plants in family and friends who are hyper-sensitive. An emergency room doctor said the quick use of oral and topical diphenhydramine to treat wasp stings around the neck and upper body of my cousin's young son probably saved his life. One moment he was laughing about the shock of being stung so many times. A minute later he was reddening and swelling noticeably and having difficulty breathing and swallowing. I gave him two Benadryl capsules and applied some diphenhydramine ointment to the sting areas, and hustled him off to the ER, which was 30 minutes away.
So I do keep those in my first aid kit, including the one I take on my hybrid bike for group rides to treat the usual scrapes, etc., from minor crashes. A single dose of diphenhydramine for an emergency won't do any harm to the vast majority of people and the potential benefit outweighs the risk in those situations.
But I really wish the FDA would issue more public warnings about the widespread and poorly labeled use of diphenhydramine and other old style, obsolete antihistamines in so many OTC meds. People need to be better informed about what they're taking.
There are also lesser sins among OTC meds like Excedrin, with the same ingredients being repackaged to claim they're specifically great for migraines, etc., when in reality it's just the same dose of aspirin, acetaminophen and caffeine in every variety. But that's not quite as bad as sneaking in unnecessary doses of anticholinergics to unwary and under-informed consumers.
03-08-18, 02:46 PM
#34
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Prayer. Liturgy of the Hours is 2000 years old and based on the Jewish tradition of praying 7x/day.
Compline is night prayer before bed.
It brings me peace and for me is very effective. Regular practice adds a focused importance to the end of the day and has added an aspect to going to bed apart from just being tired and needing rest.
Universalis: Compline (Night Prayer)
-Tim-
Compline is night prayer before bed.
Protect us Lord as we stay awake and watch over us as we sleep, that awake we may keep watch with Christ and asleep rest in His peace.
Into your hands I commend my spirit...
And so forth. Into your hands I commend my spirit...
It brings me peace and for me is very effective. Regular practice adds a focused importance to the end of the day and has added an aspect to going to bed apart from just being tired and needing rest.
Universalis: Compline (Night Prayer)
-Tim-
Last edited by TimothyH; 03-08-18 at 02:50 PM.
03-11-18, 06:06 PM
#35
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After a training ride over 40 miles I usually have my glass of chocolate milk and fall asleep in my recliner. If I sleep more than an hour I have trouble falling asleep at night.
03-19-18, 07:19 PM
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Please be very careful with those. I'll try to summarize my usual 3,000 word diatribe against using these types of medications too often. But I've personally witnessed the devastating effects on my own family so I have a personal stake in this information.
These are all powerful anti-cholinergics. While this type of drug can serve a legitimate medical function it should be used only under medical supervision and never as sleep aids. These can hasten the onset of dementia and worsen the effects. The transition from responding normally to over-reacting to a single dose can occur unexpectedly. The older we get, the more dangerous the potential reactions.
For example, my mom ended up in the emergency room in 2012 after a single dose of a generic version of Nyquil. She had purchased this on her own at the local discount store, despite cautions from her geriatric general practitioner to take only the approved meds for allergies, congestion and coughing (mom's GP was fantastic and very well informed about potential side effects, better than some of mom's specialists). I usually scrutinized everything mom brought home from the store but I missed that one.
Those nighttime cough/cold/flu remedies are the worst kind of junk and should be labeled as poison rather than medicine. They contain at least three anti-cholinergics, all from the worst and lowest class of antihistamines and medications that should have been taken off the market years ago.
The combination created a potent hallucinatory effect on my mom. She never fully recovered. While she had days and sometimes weeks of relative clarity and independence, she began reacting more strongly and immediately to side effects from other medications. The worst was from a single dose of a medication prescribed by an ill-informed neurologist who, thankfully, is no longer with her health care system working with geriatric patients. The neurologist suggested the medication -- designed for patients with serious Parkinson's, which my mom did not have -- to control her minor but annoying essential tremor in one hand, which was inappropriate. She again hallucinated, this time for three days. The experience rapidly hastened her deterioration and should could no longer enjoy the independence she once had.
It was a frustrating experience for her and her visiting aides as well. Eventually we couldn't keep a visiting aide. I took over full time caregiver duties in early 2015. She's now in a nursing home full time. Doctors can find nothing organically wrong with her brain. She's had only a few minor TIAs -- mini-strokes -- not serious enough to account for the level of dementia. But I could recount for the specialists an incident-by-incident list of medications that precipitated her worsening dementia over the course of a decade.
And it began with careless use of OTC anti-cholinergics, including diphenhydramine, doxylamine succinate, chlorpheneramine, phenylephrine and others. And the prescription medication benztropine/benzatropine, often marketed as Cogentin.
To a lesser extent my grandmother had a similar experience. She insisted on routinely taking diphenhydramine and Unisom with doxylamine succinate as sleep aids. The effect on her was much more gradual. She simply slowed down very gradually, sleeping more, becoming less active, taking longer to finish the daily crossword puzzle, then not finishing it at all. She became unable to cope with routine bill paying, etc. I simply thought it was a routine process of aging.
She had surgery for a lower intestine biopsy at age 89 and never recovered. She hallucinated from the combination of anesthesia and morphine for pain and never fully recovered mentally or physically. She was unable to cooperate with basic physical therapy, was unfortunately neglected by nurses in an incompetent physical rehab center, and died a few months later in-home hospice.
While the effects were less severe than with my mom, I can't help wondering whether grandmother would have been better off using melatonin, valerian root or chamomile tea.
Frankly I'd rather lose some sleep than risk taking anti-cholinergics. Occasionally I'll take melatonin, and find I need less of it as I've gotten older.
These are all powerful anti-cholinergics. While this type of drug can serve a legitimate medical function it should be used only under medical supervision and never as sleep aids. These can hasten the onset of dementia and worsen the effects. The transition from responding normally to over-reacting to a single dose can occur unexpectedly. The older we get, the more dangerous the potential reactions.
For example, my mom ended up in the emergency room in 2012 after a single dose of a generic version of Nyquil. She had purchased this on her own at the local discount store, despite cautions from her geriatric general practitioner to take only the approved meds for allergies, congestion and coughing (mom's GP was fantastic and very well informed about potential side effects, better than some of mom's specialists). I usually scrutinized everything mom brought home from the store but I missed that one.
Those nighttime cough/cold/flu remedies are the worst kind of junk and should be labeled as poison rather than medicine. They contain at least three anti-cholinergics, all from the worst and lowest class of antihistamines and medications that should have been taken off the market years ago.
The combination created a potent hallucinatory effect on my mom. She never fully recovered. While she had days and sometimes weeks of relative clarity and independence, she began reacting more strongly and immediately to side effects from other medications. The worst was from a single dose of a medication prescribed by an ill-informed neurologist who, thankfully, is no longer with her health care system working with geriatric patients. The neurologist suggested the medication -- designed for patients with serious Parkinson's, which my mom did not have -- to control her minor but annoying essential tremor in one hand, which was inappropriate. She again hallucinated, this time for three days. The experience rapidly hastened her deterioration and should could no longer enjoy the independence she once had.
It was a frustrating experience for her and her visiting aides as well. Eventually we couldn't keep a visiting aide. I took over full time caregiver duties in early 2015. She's now in a nursing home full time. Doctors can find nothing organically wrong with her brain. She's had only a few minor TIAs -- mini-strokes -- not serious enough to account for the level of dementia. But I could recount for the specialists an incident-by-incident list of medications that precipitated her worsening dementia over the course of a decade.
And it began with careless use of OTC anti-cholinergics, including diphenhydramine, doxylamine succinate, chlorpheneramine, phenylephrine and others. And the prescription medication benztropine/benzatropine, often marketed as Cogentin.
To a lesser extent my grandmother had a similar experience. She insisted on routinely taking diphenhydramine and Unisom with doxylamine succinate as sleep aids. The effect on her was much more gradual. She simply slowed down very gradually, sleeping more, becoming less active, taking longer to finish the daily crossword puzzle, then not finishing it at all. She became unable to cope with routine bill paying, etc. I simply thought it was a routine process of aging.
She had surgery for a lower intestine biopsy at age 89 and never recovered. She hallucinated from the combination of anesthesia and morphine for pain and never fully recovered mentally or physically. She was unable to cooperate with basic physical therapy, was unfortunately neglected by nurses in an incompetent physical rehab center, and died a few months later in-home hospice.
While the effects were less severe than with my mom, I can't help wondering whether grandmother would have been better off using melatonin, valerian root or chamomile tea.
Frankly I'd rather lose some sleep than risk taking anti-cholinergics. Occasionally I'll take melatonin, and find I need less of it as I've gotten older.
i use diphenhydramine when congestion hits during a cold, well now what?
03-29-18, 07:55 AM
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i been out on my bike loads of times and nearly fell asleep . . . . time for a three wheeler, or something more drastic . . . . I'm feeling sleepy just reading this stuff. I can't blame the dog either. She's already flat out.
03-29-18, 12:18 PM
#38
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Antihistamines aren't effective remedies for cold and flu.
Decongestants can help. Only oral Sudafed and the generic pseudoephedrine work for me. Nasal spray decongestants are okay for occasional use.
03-30-18, 05:42 AM
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I was always a great sleeper. Any time, anywhere, any position. No more. Now, if I'm lucky I get 3 to 4 hours uninterrupted sleep. If I'm really lucky, I can go back to sleep for another 2 or 3 hours but that is the exception, not the rule. I tried ambien which worked well for a while but my body apparently acclimated and I was back down to about 5 hours a night and worse, I couldn't sleep a wink without it.
Exercising several hours before bed seems to help.
Exercising several hours before bed seems to help.
03-30-18, 05:45 AM
#40
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04-01-18, 06:47 PM
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Zyrtec and Claritin, or the generic versions, work better and more safely for allergies.
Antihistamines aren't effective remedies for cold and flu.
Decongestants can help. Only oral Sudafed and the generic pseudoephedrine work for me. Nasal spray decongestants are okay for occasional use.
Antihistamines aren't effective remedies for cold and flu.
Decongestants can help. Only oral Sudafed and the generic pseudoephedrine work for me. Nasal spray decongestants are okay for occasional use.
the idea of antihistamine was to reduce congestion at night to get sleep. other than that, they are of no use. are the decongestants better? are the ones you listed safe?
04-01-18, 11:18 PM
#42
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Sometimes allergies provoke swelling of the mucous membranes beyond what a safe antihistamine can help. Zyrtec, Claritin and generics are currently the safest antihistamines. If you still experience painful sinus congestion then pseudoephedrine or ephedrine may be the best over the counter remedies.
Keep in mind that both ephedrine and pseudoephedrine can aggravate other medical conditions, especially high blood pressure and thyroid disease (I have both). They're also stimulants, roughly comparable to a couple of cups of coffee. So use them with caution. I use those decongestants only when the pressure causes painful sinus headaches, dizziness, nausea, etc. I wake up with those symptoms every day but often just drinking a few cups of coffee or hot tea relieves some congestion.
Last edited by canklecat; 04-01-18 at 11:27 PM.
04-02-18, 04:37 AM
#43
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".....a few cups of coffee......", I'd be pulling off to the side of the road frequently with a few cups of coffee in me. 
Make mine a Nespresso Kazaar, 1 shot and good to go
04-02-18, 08:55 AM
#44
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Fortunately I was mostly riding the local MUP with porta-potty (aka,log cabin villages) along the route. The weather had turned chilly and windy so there weren't many folks around.
04-02-18, 09:38 AM
#45
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Several posters have talked of keeping the bedroom cool, dark and quiet. Those things help me a lot. A trick I have been doing for many years is buying packages of the cheap rubber workplace earplugs, then cutting them almost in half with scissors and using the slightly longer outer portion of the plug. I find this makes putting them in far easier, they stay in and I can lay that ear on the pillow without the plug contacting my ear drum. (I also prefer to do this in really noisy places because they sit so much more securely in my ear and are far easier to push back in if needed. Yes, ultimately a little less help with very high noise levels when compared to properly inserted full plugs, but the worst abuses my ears have seen have been from those full plugs falling out or being poorly inserted. (I used to work as an engineer in a yard making very large steel barges. Sometimes very loud.)
Recently I've tried another trick. Sleeping with my feet up on a small pillow. I started doing this for an injury where keeping my legs up helps healing, then started noticing I was sleeping better feeling better after. It doesn't work all night. After a while the pillow has moved off to some far corner of the bed, but still it appears to help a lot. I am suspecting that as a cyclist, it is helping drainage and recovery in my legs and my whole body is saying "thank you". (And even the days I don't ride, I spend almost the entire day with my feet down, 2,3,4 feet below my heart. With no pillow, they are still below.)
Ben
Recently I've tried another trick. Sleeping with my feet up on a small pillow. I started doing this for an injury where keeping my legs up helps healing, then started noticing I was sleeping better feeling better after. It doesn't work all night. After a while the pillow has moved off to some far corner of the bed, but still it appears to help a lot. I am suspecting that as a cyclist, it is helping drainage and recovery in my legs and my whole body is saying "thank you". (And even the days I don't ride, I spend almost the entire day with my feet down, 2,3,4 feet below my heart. With no pillow, they are still below.)
Ben
04-02-18, 02:26 PM
#46
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Has anyone tried this...https://www.amazon.com/NoctuRest-Sup.../dp/B01N5SSJ31
05-09-18, 03:33 PM
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Congestion may be a side effect of allergies -- a histamine reaction -- so an antihistamine alone may help. Give it a try for a few days first.
Sometimes allergies provoke swelling of the mucous membranes beyond what a safe antihistamine can help. Zyrtec, Claritin and generics are currently the safest antihistamines. If you still experience painful sinus congestion then pseudoephedrine or ephedrine may be the best over the counter remedies.
Keep in mind that both ephedrine and pseudoephedrine can aggravate other medical conditions, especially high blood pressure and thyroid disease (I have both). They're also stimulants, roughly comparable to a couple of cups of coffee. So use them with caution. I use those decongestants only when the pressure causes painful sinus headaches, dizziness, nausea, etc. I wake up with those symptoms every day but often just drinking a few cups of coffee or hot tea relieves some congestion.
Sometimes allergies provoke swelling of the mucous membranes beyond what a safe antihistamine can help. Zyrtec, Claritin and generics are currently the safest antihistamines. If you still experience painful sinus congestion then pseudoephedrine or ephedrine may be the best over the counter remedies.
Keep in mind that both ephedrine and pseudoephedrine can aggravate other medical conditions, especially high blood pressure and thyroid disease (I have both). They're also stimulants, roughly comparable to a couple of cups of coffee. So use them with caution. I use those decongestants only when the pressure causes painful sinus headaches, dizziness, nausea, etc. I wake up with those symptoms every day but often just drinking a few cups of coffee or hot tea relieves some congestion.
05-14-18, 08:22 AM
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I require at least 7.5 hours a sleep, preferably 8 in order to function at 100%. I’m up at 03:00 in the morning and usually not home from work until 18:00 to 19:00 so my days are long. I hardly ever an issue with falling to sleep however on nights I do I find taking half a dose of Unisom puts me into a deep dreamlike sleep.
05-22-18, 02:26 PM
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For me the exercise-sleep disruption link is indirect: if the exercise gets me hungry and I eat late, it can disrupt my sleep. Occasionally, it's an electrolyte imbalance that makes me restless (I think). Other than that, no relationship that I can see. It may be worth looking into.
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