Ttoc6

Re: time.

This is probably the main reason I do most of my training indoors. I had a 75 minute workout today and was meeting a friend for dinner. I got home at 5 (car into parking spot) and was off the trainer by 6:20, out of the shower and dressed to go by 6:30 to meet my friend at 7 with a half hour drive. There is absolutely no way that happens to me if I try to ride outside after work. Hell, it takes me that long to find a repair kit and get all the base layers and coats I need even head outside this time of year.

re: position.
I'm not a well accomplished time trialist, but I do most of my training on road bike with some of my easier spins on the tt bike. Then dedicated tt workouts on the tt bike of course. I find it doesn't take me more than 5 minutes to get back into the position I need once I start riding outside. So I guess I'd rather ride the road bike where I can hit the (marginally) higher power numbers and reap that additional benefit.

jacksonhandy

I have eTap. Do it. It feels like dual clutch for a bike.

Heathpack 

But from the perspective of the TTing, you're not reaping additional benefit. Its not about physically being able to get into position, its about the power you can produce in that position. Obviously you might want to strategically give up power in TT position because your position is so good that the aero gains outweigh the power loss when you consider speed as the goal.

However, if you could keep the great aero position and increase power in that position, you'd be faster than if you left watts on the table because you don't adapt enough to your TT position.

Of course you may have other priorities- you might care more about your power on the road bike because you race it more, or you might just enjoy the road bike more and prefer riding it, or whatever. But if you're doing TT workouts to improve TTing and doing those on a road bike because you can produce more power on the road bike, IMO you're looking at it wrong. Working on dragging the power up in aero on the TT bike is actually the thing you want to be doing.

So many times I am trying to make some power target on the TT bike and I know it would be 100% doable it I just sat up. But I'm not gonna sit up when actually racing (generally speaking) so IMO a near miss of my power target while maintaining an aero position is more of a win than sitting up and making the number.

Too many solo rides on the TT bike thinking about this stuff, maybe.

jsk

Well, I would agree you need time in position on the TT bike to acclimate to it and be able to increase power in that position. I normally make it a point to ride the TT bike once or twice a week for some outdoor interval sessions to work on this (although this winter has not cooperated and I've been stuck indoors more than I'd like)

I just don't agree that means all training should be targeting that. For me, trainer work is purely about fitness. It's about stressing specific energy systems to produce a stress response. So a less-miserable position that better allows me to hit my numbers makes more sense.

I understand it would be different for you since you only do TT's (I think). But for most of the people in the 33, TT is just one part of the overall picture.

wktmeow

Oh man, TT position on the trainer is just torture for me. It feels so much harder than being out on the road. Maybe the extra speed is just that distracting...

I'm in the camp of not worrying about position on the trainer. You're not really using your core the same way anyway since the bike is stationary, so I have to wonder how transferable it is.

Heathpack 

I didn’t say all training should target TT position. In fact, I said you might value improving power on the road bike over improving it on the TT bike, if you race more on the road bike.

I could be confused but in the post I was replying to, @Ttoc6 refers to time trialing and “TT workouts” and then doing them on the road bike so that he can produce more power. When I personally label something a TT workout, that means that workout is intended to prepare me for a time trial. Maybe @Ttoc6 just means “long threshold interval” as opposed to actual TT prep.

But if we’re talking about a workout intended primarily to improve your performance in a TT, IMO it really is better to stay in position (however miserable) and work towards developing power in position no matter how tempting it is to sit up or do the work on a road bike instead. There’s always modifiers of course: maybe you live in a climate where you spend so much time on the trainer in winter that you’ve gotta do what it takes to make it palatable, or maybe you’re only racing TTs as part of stage races and you’ll only race 3 TTs all year so it’s not worth the work, or maybe you just don’t care that much about your TT results.

So I’m not saying there’s only one “right” way to do a TT workout for every person who races a bike at every point in their season. All I’m saying is that if you’re specifically working on TT power, you’re probably better off making less power in TT position than more power in road position. Which I’ll bet is not something we’re in disagreement on.

akdmx

Back to the smart trainers -- one thing I'll point out about the direct drive units that isn't commonly discussed is that the cassette spacing may vary slightly from your wheel meaning you could need to barrel adjust each time you swap out or have some degree of clicking going on. I've been too lazy to find spacers so far.

Ttoc6

Ah, think I miscommunicated some info. If you're doing a "TT workout" 100% do it on the fast bike in position. Hell, put a pointy helmet on too. What I meant to say is the body adaptations from pushing 300W are different from pushing 280W, no matter the perception of effort! And if I can't push that higher power number on the tt bike because of position, I'm robbing myself of those added adaptations.

Time and place for everything.

Re:clicking
I do 99% of smart trainer workouts in erg mode. You just have to find a gear that doesn't click. I never adjust anything unless I'm doing a zwift race where I'm actually shifting. Erg mode has no care of which gear you're in. bigger gear emulates road better, but it is louder. Smaller gear is quieter and wears the chain less, so that's what I use.

Heathpack 

I know that's what you meant to say.

I just think you're not right on this. Putting out 280 watts on the TT bike instead of 300 watts on the road bike is not robbing yourself of anything. In fact, if your aim is to improve TT performance, I'd argue that by riding the road bike you're robbing yourself of the opportunity to work on producing that power on the TT bike.

Not the point of this thread, so no point in belaboring this any further. I'm not even sure what caught my attention enough to look at this thread.

spectastic

so i got me a 1st gen kickr. it works pretty well. i like it. my friend is letting me use his sufferfest, but I'd like to see if there's software out there that lets me build workouts that i can run, and listen to a podcast at the same time. sufferfest, zwift, they all have preset workouts, but there's really no reason why we can't make our own. is there a software out there that can connect to erg mode on my kickr, and do the following?

desirable functions:
pick starting points within workouts
be able to set power and duration of intervals
be able to change overall intensity of workout, (eg. if intensity is set to 1.2, the entire workout power is done at 120% from default)
it would be nice if it's free as well.

Ttoc6

Trainerroad lets you build a workout and adjust overall intensity. You can skip ahead to where ever you want inside of a workout. It costs 100$ a year, and they're adding some pretty neat features right now to extend it to the outside world. I can send you a referral if you want for a free month.

You can build workouts in zwift, but can't jump ahead or adjust intensity. Also still 10$ a month.

Perf pro is a one time pay and build software. I don't use this, but have heard good things.

Supposedly Golden cheetah has a workout building tool in it for erg mode. But golden cheetah is a rats nest to get around as it is. Throw in smart trainers.. good luck.

Many garmins and wahoo head units let you control the kickr natively. Some can also import workouts from training peaks etc. I use this for warmups and a lot of recovery rides. (ie, set to 200W and leave it be).

jacksonhandy

On the desktop version in Zwift, you can use the little arrows on the left to adjust intensity, but only down a max of 10%, I haven’t gone up.

Also, I think hitting tab allows you to skip an interval.

FWIW, I switched to TrainerRoad and I like it more, at least the plans and structures that they have. It seems more focused on training and improving and less the “social” parts of riding with other people on the inter webs.