caloso

Yeah, me too. But it probably has more to do with the fact that those guys who stick with it into the masters keep training, and they've got more experience so they're not wasting as many watts as the strong but clueless young 5's.

Ttoc6

Hey man, i just don't play for that team. (also wasn't sure what the forum censors were).

Re: announcers.. Once you know a sport really well, announcers just get on your nerves. I can't stand to listen to most soccer commentators since I grew up playing the game and have reffed at a pretty high level. They're (even the guys commentating at the top level) just flat out wrong a lot.

Re: speed. The Clif bar team podcasts that have been done with the Trainer Road crew describe it as a ticket to enter. Punch your ticket at some level to get in. Everything above that level is about winning. Pete morris (on the podcasts) likes to say he punches his ticket when his threshold is around 400W. Anything after that is enough to help him handle surges better or make the moves that can help the team win/race.

Ygduf

in this sport everyone faces setbacks. It's not if, but when, and when they happen it's about how you respond to them.

Gary's gnawing his cast off with his teeth so he can ride a trainer that he hates. I rode a week after clavicle surgery with my thumb hooked in my jersey, etc... anyone who's achieved any measure of success in bike racing has overcome something to get there or stay there.

It seems like young guys who breeze through the 3s, get their 2 and find out it wasn't competing that they liked, but winning. If all someone cares about is winning and not the competition, it's going to be pretty hard to stay fulfilled.

TheKillerPenguin

Gunga, gunga galunga.

furiousferret

When I punctured my lung, the doctors made it clear I was very susceptible to another puncture, and if that happened I had a 25% to have a heart attack. I decided the best course was to forget about cycling and walked away but paid for it (gained a ton of weight, etc). I could have very easily rode the trainer for 6 months, but more than likely I would have rode outdoors on the bike too early. I'd see people's results on Strava, read the 33, watch racing, get antsy and totally ignore the risks.

Of course, I haven't achieved any success in this sport so I guess this doesn't apply. Nonetheless my point is sometimes its better to walk away.

Radish_legs

I've decided personal growth and experience mean a whole lot more to me than winning. That's why I'm upgrading. And who knows I may never win again, but that's okay.

tobukog

I would guess the opposite. The average Cat 4/5 riders are probably SLOWER than those from 5 years ago. I'm guessing that membership peaked right about 5 years ago. Fewer riders mean a smaller talent pool, and fewer riders and races result in slower races, smaller challenges, and subsequent less growth. In addition, I'd guess that there's also the continuing demographic shift among the ridership -- more masters fewer younger racers -- that contribute to the decline of racers in the 19-34 year old category. That's not to say that there aren't strong cat 4/5 or vibrant local racing scenes, but I'd posit overall the racing has gotten slower. I'd even say it has for even the upper categories in the domestic scene.

Radish_legs

Fewer riders doesn't necessarily mean slower. If the riders who aren't coming are the more casual guys who don't train as much, then it's just losing dudes who are pack fodder on a good day.

I don't know how the scene has changed in the past few years. It seems like our weekday crits are doing fine, and perhaps even growing. But the weekend "big" races seem to be suffering and declining.

Wylde06

100% agree

Hellgate

23 is a good century pace...

gsteinb

ntnyln

This. I desperately want to win but like everyone who competes, but if that was what gave me fulfillment, I would have been out so long ago. I've learned that for me it's all about the process of finding how far I can push myself and how I can continue to find ways to get better in the face of age/life/genetics etc. Today's participation reward mentality makes it harder for younger kids to maintain interest when there is only one winner and the smallest thing can mean the difference between 1st and 30th.

topflightpro

There may be some truth to this. There was a recent discussion on the local listserv about the hey days of the local Saturday hammer ride. The consensus was the ride peaked about 6 years ago.

tobukog

Of course, these are all just generalizations. Some of the hardest races I can remember (at least in my mind -- who knows about power since I didn't have a meter back then) have been Nor Cal Velopromo road races in crappy conditions with 10 riders on the start line. "let's just take it easy truces" usually last for about oh, 5 minutes and after that it just turns into a mano y mano slug fest with no where to hide.

Psimet2001 

Friedman. Joel.
Starts with nothing. Stops by and I get him into the sport. This would be younger brother of Mike "Meatball" Friedman - US Olympian on the track at Beijing, Racer on TIAA Cref, Slipstream Chipotle, Garmin Chipotle, Garmin, Jelly Belly, Kelly Benefits, Optum, etc. Somewhere I documented on this forum - meeting him and getting him into the sport.

He was the first real true "natural" I had even seen up close. When on his first outdoor ride with the team and the first time he had ever ridden more than 20 miles in his life he lasts to the end (80 miles) with the 2 cat 1's and has dropped everyone else (about 30 guys - mostly 3's).

His first race he raced every lap looking at me for an indicator of what he should do. When he finally went he won by 30 seconds over the field. A gap he put on them in the last 2 turns of an industrial park crit. After the race Brad Huff called him to ask how everything went and to congratulate him.

He won and won and won. Everything. All day any day.

Upgraded to a 3 for Downers Grove when it was still US Crit Championships. Won by attacking on the back hill on the last lap. Rode/jumped so hard there was nothing but carnage behind him. Watch the video:
Went to a 2 before the end of the season. 1 year in racing. Had to have a conversation with him that winter about him getting serious and actually trying as up to that point he had just been "riding along". His brother told him not to. Said it was no kind of life and that he was actually jealous of him because he had a job, house, and girlfriend. ......the same guy who was roommates with Zabriskie, raced Paris, Roubaix, and Milan San Remo (placing in the top 20 1 year I believe), and most of the other classics.

Joel trains a bit. Has mixed results in the 2's. Isn't really winning much anymore. Is in the right place but is getting in wrecks. Taking the fun out of it.

We hook him up with uber Zen coach and masters national road champ, multi-time state champ, etc 50 yr old badass Wayne Simon. Wayne takes him and trains him. Makes him work. Best form of his life and in the first race of the year is able to toy with everyone. Is in the final sprint train in the last turn and things go south quick. Hits the deck and does about $400 damage to the bike his brother had just given him - the last team issue Garmin bike he had received. Forgot to bring his protein for after the race after having been warned multiple times by coach. Head isn't in the game. Is "fired". Walks away.

"it was super fun as a 3. I kind of wish I just could have stayed there."

Waits multiple years. I finally talk him into downgrading to a 3. He does and comes out to race 1 time. No training. Still racing the 1/2/3 but has fun rolling and hangs on and has some fun, but was warned that if he started winning he would be upgraded again to a

Natural with genetics but not the head. Walks away. Could have been a pro. Was easily a 2. stopped having fun when he stopped wining everything.

furiousferret

1:20 That pissed me off. Nasty crash but too bad gotta to the finish line. Something serious could have been wrong with one of those guys and 1 or 2 extra hands is crucial but whatever.

Psimet2001 

Yeah I don't know who the guy was. I don't even think I was at the race at the moment. I was racing that day as well....in the masters 4/5 where the guy that won was an ex-cat2 that they made be a cat 5 when he came back to the sport so our race was on his stop on the way to being a 2 again. Probably one of my highest placings.

See being a lifelong cat4 I get to really look at the issue. The problem with our system is that it is structured as though everyone is a beginner and has to acquire skills and work their way up. The reality isn't so. There are people who come to the sport as athletes that will be 2's but they have just never raced before. As you move through the ranks the disparity between the highs and the lows in the category narrows. It then gives it the impression of being more consistent as you move up...because it should be.

The fact is - you were all cat 4's or 's at some point and you blew up fields and left damage in your wake. There is ALWAYS someone doing that in the 4's and 5's. When one upgrades the next one shows up or comes along. Those of us who really would be there for life and just want to compete with the normal humans in the 4's can easily get discouraged and leave. Yes i have been in many 4's crits that were 24-25 mph average speed crits. I have done that on days where the masters were running 22-23. It wasn't the "4's" that were driving it. It was the handful of guys on their way through...just like every race every time.

rubiksoval

I know the guy that took the video. What's he supposed to do, really? I mean, those crashes are a dime a dozen at that race (and most national championships). That was essentially at the neutral service tent, anyway. Plenty of people there.

Don't really want random people jumping on the course in the middle of the last lap anyway. At least I don't.

merlinextraligh

this gets to whats's different these days. The people who win Cat 5 races aren't markedly faster than they were 20 years ago. But the overall level of people coming out to do Cat 5 races is much higher. When they started Citizen's/Cat 5 years ago, a recreational cyclist could come out, try racing and not just get totally blown away.

These days, to even hang in most 5 Cat crits, you've got to be reasonably well trained.

i think we'e got a problem with providing an entry point to the sport. And I think that emphasis on training, as opposed to learning to ride a bike, is causing two seperate problems; 1) creating riders that are way faster than their bike handling skills, and 2) dicouraging recreational cyclists to even try racing.

Psimet's solution might be a partial answer to this.


And, Get off my lawn.

ancker

This is a better way of saying what I was trying to say earlier. People have this notion that Cat 5's are citizens trying it out for the first time (because that's what it was like when they were new). Most are not and have spent all winter training and doing Zwift races. Neither build pack skills, cornering speed, or teach racecraft, but it creates stronger riders. Instead of recognizing that speeds and difficulty of today's Cat 5 races has indeed gone up, the response is always "nope, speed and skills in the 5s still sucks." The overall winning speed hasn't gone up, because the guys that are winning are still the types of racers that were winning back then. But start time to lapped or start time to pulled is probably a lot shorter than it used to be.

rubiksoval

I never had a notion that cat 5s were citizen races. In fact, I was under the distinct impression when I began (and I still hold this belief), that you should be a fairly experienced (and good) group rider before attempting a race. My go-to advice for anyone thinking about racing is to go do the fastest group rides you can do, primarily for the group dynamics and safety issues.

I honestly don't think I know a single bike racer who just thought "hey, a race sounds fun, why I don't go jump in one." In fact, I've heard more than a couple of weekend warrior types state they thought they'd be dropped from the gun when it was suggested they give racing a try because they rode so well. Probably not the norm, but certainly different from the idea that a bike race is for anyone idea.

Radish_legs

I certainly agree with this. I may have taken this to heart more than most (over-prep compared to underprep). You do the hammer ride twice a week with cat 3 and 4 racers, you're going to be way more prepared for that first crit.

Psimet2001 

Unfortunately this is the case. I really wish, as a promoter and general lover of racing, that I could easily walk up to anyone and say, "HEY - give it a shot!"

You'd be amazed at how many times I have been in a meeting with a local government talking about race logistics only to have the Public works guy or even the police chief say that thy were thinking of trying it as they have been getting into shape....only for people on our side to scare them off with all of the things to consider. 5k's don't do that. We will never be running but sometimes I think we need to be more like them.

Radish_legs

The average cyclist (not the average racer) would be dropped in the first lap of the crits I do. No doubt about it. In all the 4/5 crits i have done this year, I was on the podium 3 times, and my FTP is near 300w. That's 3 out of many, many.

TheKillerPenguin

It's because we take ourselves too seriously.