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Retro roadies- old frames with STI's or Ergos

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Retro roadies- old frames with STI's or Ergos

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Old 05-20-18, 10:31 PM
  #6876  
ski4bob
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Originally Posted by Camillio24 View Post
Love to see everyones classic bikes with modern set-ups!
This is my ride.
1995 (Mino)Denti, Dedacciai Zero-Tre tubing, Shimano 105 (5600) group.
I love this bike, very pretty!
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Old 05-27-18, 07:08 PM
  #6877  
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@ski4bob that looks great! The coordination of the additional pinks is very nice. Your wife must be quite tall--that frame is only 1" smaller than the one I ride, and I'm 6'5"!
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Old 05-29-18, 06:19 PM
  #6878  
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
@ski4bob that looks great! The coordination of the additional pinks is very nice. Your wife must be quite tall--that frame is only 1" smaller than the one I ride, and I'm 6'5"!
Yep, she is 5'11" with long legs. My frames are all 25" also, as I'm the same height as you.
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Old 05-29-18, 10:18 PM
  #6879  
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Originally Posted by ski4bob View Post
Yep, she is 5'11" with long legs. My frames are all 25" also, as I'm the same height as you.
Interesting coincidence.... my wife is 5-foot-10 and I'm 6-foot-4. She's much prettier than me, though.
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Old 05-30-18, 08:29 AM
  #6880  
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I had a question that didn't get much traction elsewhere, presumably because no one cares about old ergos/stis but the folks in this thread...

I have a Campagnolo Mirage FD and shifter (2x9), I would be surprised if it was newer than 2002.

I have a Campagnolo Veloce FD and shifter (2x10), new, last year.

Can I mix and match these shifters and front mechs? Will they work well all mixed up?

I know Campagnolo has a few different iterations of ergo systems (QS, Escape, Powershift, Ultrashift, etc.) but I'm not too familiar with the differences.
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Old 05-30-18, 06:57 PM
  #6881  
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Originally Posted by athrowawaynic View Post
I had a question that didn't get much traction elsewhere, presumably because no one cares about old ergos/stis but the folks in this thread...

I have a Campagnolo Mirage FD and shifter (2x9), I would be surprised if it was newer than 2002.

I have a Campagnolo Veloce FD and shifter (2x10), new, last year.

Can I mix and match these shifters and front mechs? Will they work well all mixed up?

I know Campagnolo has a few different iterations of ergo systems (QS, Escape, Powershift, Ultrashift, etc.) but I'm not too familiar with the differences.
Hi,

Compatibility is a function of the actuation ratio. Take a read through this and you should be on your way to an answer: Art's Cyclery Blog » Science Behind the Magic | Drivetrain Compatibility.

John
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Old 05-30-18, 11:46 PM
  #6882  
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Originally Posted by athrowawaynic View Post
I had a question that didn't get much traction elsewhere, presumably because no one cares about old ergos/stis but the folks in this thread...

I have a Campagnolo Mirage FD and shifter (2x9), I would be surprised if it was newer than 2002.

I have a Campagnolo Veloce FD and shifter (2x10), new, last year.

Can I mix and match these shifters and front mechs? Will they work well all mixed up?

I know Campagnolo has a few different iterations of ergo systems (QS, Escape, Powershift, Ultrashift, etc.) but I'm not too familiar with the differences.
The Mirage shifters are round tops, not the earlier pointy tops (8-speed), correct? If so, then the newer RD should work just fine with it. Old pull ratio RDs (of the Ergo shifter era) had their B-tension screws up near the hanger, like everyone else. New pull ratio RDs have their B-tension screws right by the upper pulley wheel. Old pull ratios work with 8s Ergos and a few 9s Ergos that still had the pointy hood shape (Record, at the very least). New pull ratios work with the round top shifters (9s, 10s), even the new era of 10/11s Ergos. John's Art's Cyclery article link is GOLD. Bookmark it!
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Old 05-31-18, 05:19 AM
  #6883  
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Originally Posted by flying_rhino View Post
Compatibility is a function of the actuation ratio. Take a read through this and you should be on your way to an answer: Art's Cyclery Blog » Science Behind the Magic Drivetrain Compatibility.
Thanks, I saw the article. But that has to do with the rear mech, correct? I'm only concerned with the front mech.

Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
The Mirage shifters are round tops, not the earlier pointy tops (8-speed), correct? If so, then the newer RD should work just fine with it. Old pull ratio RDs (of the Ergo shifter era) had their B-tension screws up near the hanger, like everyone else. New pull ratio RDs have their B-tension screws right by the upper pulley wheel. Old pull ratios work with 8s Ergos and a few 9s Ergos that still had the pointy hood shape (Record, at the very least). New pull ratios work with the round top shifters (9s, 10s), even the new era of 10/11s Ergos. John's Art's Cyclery article link is GOLD. Bookmark it!
Thanks. Mine are 9sp, but as I just said, I'm just wondering about cable pull for the front mech, not the rear. (Basically, if the front derailleurs are interchangeable, I can leave them--one is braze-on, the other is clamp/band.)
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Old 05-31-18, 05:43 AM
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Can you just try the left shifter when it's not hooked up to anything and see how many clicks it has? If it has more than 3 or so, at least some of the clicks should line up with our two rings and the others act as trim, no?
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Old 05-31-18, 07:13 AM
  #6885  
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Can you just try the left shifter when it's not hooked up to anything and see how many clicks it has? If it has more than 3 or so, at least some of the clicks should line up with our two rings and the others act as trim, no?
My concern is that the leverage is either too great or not great enough, and that might result either in 1. incorrect tension to be able to shift, or 2. a broken something other other.

As others have said, it's probably fine.

Anyway... I'm going to set up and try it, then report back, to add to the BF knowledge base.
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Old 06-01-18, 01:51 AM
  #6886  
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Originally Posted by athrowawaynic View Post
Thanks, I saw the article. But that has to do with the rear mech, correct? I'm only concerned with the front mech.



Thanks. Mine are 9sp, but as I just said, I'm just wondering about cable pull for the front mech, not the rear. (Basically, if the front derailleurs are interchangeable, I can leave them--one is braze-on, the other is clamp/band.)
Braze vs. clamp-on won't make a difference. It it says QS on it, for Quick Shift, then you'll have to find shifters that also say QS on them. Otherwise, Campagnolo is interchangeable with Campagnolo when it comes to FDs.
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Old 06-01-18, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Can you just try the left shifter when it's not hooked up to anything and see how many clicks it has? If it has more than 3 or so, at least some of the clicks should line up with our two rings and the others act as trim, no?
The clicks don't line up with anything. There are 11 or 12 of them, IIRC. They are just stopping points as you continue to pull or release cable, much like Suntour's Power shifters and their micro-ratcheting. Or, like any friction down tube shifter-- 0° , 90° , and 180° do not correspond to chainring positions on a triple crankset--one just shifts until the job gets done. The Ergos just have infinite trim via notches, and it's super easy to set up a double.Triples aren't hard either. Adjust cable tension at the down tube shifter boss to help have the clicks line up the chain properly in each gear. This is the old world / organic part of Campagnolo that lives on. Shimano indexes double and triple chainrings, Campy doesn't or hasn't until very recently.

Don't overthink it. Set your limit screws, hook up cables, and go. You'll fiddle with it, as anyone does, to dial it in perfectly, if needed. Campy front shifting, especially with doubles, is really nice.
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Old 06-01-18, 05:53 AM
  #6888  
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
The clicks don't line up with anything. There are 11 or 12 of them, IIRC. They are just stopping points as you continue to pull or release cable, much like Suntour's Power shifters and their micro-ratcheting. Or, like any friction down tube shifter-- 0° , 90° , and 180° do not correspond to chainring positions on a triple crankset--one just shifts until the job gets done. The Ergos just have infinite trim via notches, and it's super easy to set up a double.Triples aren't hard either. Adjust cable tension at the down tube shifter boss to help have the clicks line up the chain properly in each gear. This is the old world / organic part of Campagnolo that lives on. Shimano indexes double and triple chainrings, Campy doesn't or hasn't until very recently.

Don't overthink it. Set your limit screws, hook up cables, and go. You'll fiddle with it, as anyone does, to dial it in perfectly, if needed. Campy front shifting, especially with doubles, is really nice.
The new ones do index, and, to me, not indexing at the right place would be the only problem with matching these two (since amount of throw didn't change). That's why I wanted him to check to make sure that they are ergopower or whatever they called it that were almost rachetting. I know by the late 00's they were down to 5-6 clicks on the lower end stuff and a couple of years later it was just 2-3 clicks.
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Old 06-01-18, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
Braze vs. clamp-on won't make a difference. It it says QS on it, for Quick Shift, then you'll have to find shifters that also say QS on them. Otherwise, Campagnolo is interchangeable with Campagnolo when it comes to FDs.
Thanks.

Where the brazeon vs. clamp matters is that I was originally going to move the Veloce group from Atala to Bianchi and the Mirage group from Bianchi to Atala.

But I can't port the front derailleurs (without adapter or some reworking) because the Bianchi FD mount is brazeon while the Atala has no mount.
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Old 06-01-18, 10:59 PM
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It behooves a component company to make sure that whether their FDs go on a braze-on mount or need a band clamp, that both FDs will be in the same (or darn near same) location--or at the very least, the same lateral offset from the center of the seat tube--and suffer no performance or ease-of-setting-up loss. Again, there is no voodoo or mystic Italian knowledge needed to "get these right." For a braze-on FD to work on a bare seat tube, you'll need an adapter, of which there are many. Colors, styles, diameters, you name it. I've done this adapter stuff many times and have not had any problem with anything related to performance or setting up.

I am aware of Campagnolo's eventual de-contenting of their Ergo shifters--I failed to mention it because it is too much effort to lay out the numerous variations of Ergos throughout their history in a single post. If any Ergo shifter has a biiiiiig vertical slit on the inside of the hood (the small thumb shift lever will be at the top of it), that means it's a "full feature" (my term) shifter and you can dump the entire cassette in one throw (via the right shifter) or go from, say, the big ring on a triple to the smallest ring (via the left shifter, running through all the clicks).

If you want to continue this thread of thought, inquiry, and/or exploration, I implore you to start a new thread or do a Google search as there are likely threads and posts and articles detailing these things. Many will respond to a thread here. And please post pictures--they say so much, and take out a ton of guess work and extra written exchanges.

So, since this is a picture thread, I will get us back on that track with the most recent setup of my Prologue. 100mm quill stem this time (down from the 115mm Modolo quill and no-name conversion stem), with the Profile Design bars. It gets the gloss stem to match the gloss seat post, and now allows for non-funny-feeling/steering out of the saddle efforts as a set of bars cantilevered way out ahead of the headtube and front axle just feels wonky. Also, a 7900-era FD has been mounted (Shimano explicitly says to use a 7900 FD with a 7900 shifters due to pull ratios and geometry. They are not kidding, as previous efforts with older Dura-Ace FDs were a lesson in frustration and semi-reliable front shifting). The FD is a braze-on, and I am using an adapter. It works perfectly. I set my limit screws, then pulled the cable tight over the clamp, clamped it with a 5mm allen key, and it was set up. Zero fiddling. Simply wonderful!


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Old 06-04-18, 09:43 PM
  #6891  
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Originally Posted by athrowawaynic View Post
Thanks.

Where the brazeon vs. clamp matters is that I was originally going to move the Veloce group from Atala to Bianchi and the Mirage group from Bianchi to Atala.

But I can't port the front derailleurs (without adapter or some reworking) because the Bianchi FD mount is brazeon while the Atala has no mount.
I'm using an old 9s Mirage front (pre 2006) with a recent 10s Veloce shifter and it works perfectly.
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Old 06-05-18, 03:35 PM
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I can't believe I missed a Campy mix-and-match discussion -- one of my favorite topics. Speaking of which, let me share the latest revision of my 650B Grand Jublié, now with extra Gugificazione and über-rare Campagnolo x Gevenalle shifters (need a name for that, Gevegnolo?), still with a respaced 10-speed Shimano cassette on an 11-speed 105 rear hub.



I posted a few pics of this in another thread recently, but now it's rideable. In fact, I rode it to work today. I tried yesterday, but the front brake was squealing uncontrollably. For some reason I couldn't get the left brake pad to toe in. So I ran it by the Atelier last night where, after verifying that the cantilever studs were, in fact, straight and properly aligned, gugie de-straightened it for me a bit so that I could get the toe-in going. Today, excellent braking and totally silent.

I really need to take some detail pictures of these shifters, because they're awesome.
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Old 06-05-18, 10:15 PM
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Here we go, pictures of the shifters....









I should probably mention that you can't do this with the off-the-shelf Gevenalle levers. They're compatible with a lot of shifters, but not the Campy bar ends (which is what I've got here). You'll notice in the last picture that the connecting widget has the old company name, Retroshift. I was able to acquire an old prototype. Because of the large radius of the left shifter the cable exit hole had to be drilled at a different angle to make this work.
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Old 06-06-18, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
I should probably mention that you can't do this with the off-the-shelf Gevenalle levers. They're compatible with a lot of shifters, but not the Campy bar ends (which is what I've got here). You'll notice in the last picture that the connecting widget has the old company name, Retroshift. I was able to acquire an old prototype. Because of the large radius of the left shifter the cable exit hole had to be drilled at a different angle to make this work.
that is one of the first things i saw- the exit angles looked different even though both housing stops are positioned vertically.
interesting. Thanks for the exolanation!
great use of ingenuity and creativity.
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Old 06-07-18, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Ronsonic View Post
I'm using an old 9s Mirage front (pre 2006) with a recent 10s Veloce shifter and it works perfectly.
Yup. I have it working. Veloce (Powershift 10sp) left/front shifter works with Mirage 9sp front mech (not sure which generation, but it has the lettering pantographed vs. printed).
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Old 06-14-18, 06:23 AM
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Aha OK so this looks like the thread for me. I've got 5 steel frames running 10 speed Campag that I'll post as soon as I clear my 10 post intro, hello all, see you soon, I'll be back.
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Old 06-14-18, 07:45 AM
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NIce one, @Andy_K!
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Old 06-17-18, 02:35 AM
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So I've finished my 10 post probation, I came across the site while trying to solve a decal puzzle for my Bottecchia, see main C&V forum on this if you can help-thanks!...and while waiting for the 10 post thing before I can post pics, I've speed read through most of this thread, and wow I've had a change a few T-shirts because of all the drooling that's gone on. Some amazing bikes.

I love old frames steel frames with modern running gear, and thanks to eBay and having no will power when it comes to resisting a retro bargain, I've got a few frames I've built up over the last 9 years, hope you like them.

First up my Denti Road Tech 5, Columbus SL Gilco/teardrop tubing, running 20 speed Campagnolo Record Ultra-shift, semi-compact 52-36 Chorus with 32 hole Chorus hubs on Mavic Open Pro's. My first proper road bike it made me fall in love with road bikes. Its well used, I've done over 20,000 miles on this bike since I got it in 2009, such a comfortable all day bike, here's how it looks now.

I love the quite plain colour, but the bike has some lovely typical Italian flourishes

Denti's ladybird logo

And I think these are called fast back seat stays?
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Old 06-17-18, 02:42 AM
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Next up my Simoncini. Got the frame and fork together off ebay, though the fork is not original. Columbus SLX frame, I decided to build this up with a mix or carbon/black and silver. Again 20 speed Campagnolo Ultra-shift, 53/39 and with the yellow Shamals this thing really flies. Love the colours on this too.


Its got 'sprint' etched into the bottom bracket so maybe has extra stiffness added there for sprinting maybe?
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Old 06-17-18, 02:49 AM
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After the Simoncini with hints of silver, I went full shiny on the next one, a lovely old Brian Rourke. Tubing unknown as previous owner added a sparkling blue metallic finish done by Bob Jackson, but maybe 631, in the sun it looks amazing. Again built up with 20 speed Campag Ultra-shift, 53/39, 175 cranks, big toe overlap and mostly Chorus. A road rocket of a bike. I lovely the sexy straight front forks and seen here with Sunday best Shamal tubulars with Vittoria Open Pave tyres.

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