supton

Came to the slow realization that when I bike, only my quads take the abuse. Now, I was fitted to my bike a few years ago, so it can't possibly be a fit issue... Anyhow, I recently picked up another bike, used, and as such I'm playing fit-doctor on my own, for a little bit anyhow. I rode yesterday with the saddle about 1cm lower and 1cm more forward than today's ride. Result: yesterday my quads were burning after a mile, and I just couldn't go past 3/4 effort. Today, I felt good. Walking around my quads still burn a bit but I feel something in my rump.

The problem is, I feel something a bit off in the front of my knees. Not pain but something amiss, something different. Below the kneecap, but in the front. I didn't feel like I pedaled funny, no rocking. Could this be just discomfort from simply being in a different position, working different muscles? I'm thinking so, and that I should give it a few more rides. [Know you get those bubbles in your joints sometimes? I swear I had a bunch after this ride also.] Perhaps I'm just a pinch too high.

My old bike is a Trek Pilot 1.2, which has the handle bars above saddle height. My "new" bike is a Trek 1500 SLR, and the handlebars are lower than saddle. It's different, and it's what I wanted--I wanted a more aggressive bike, something to ride faster. So I don't think I can just measure my bike and translate the fit over.

So, the question is, if I am aiming to set the saddle higher and back-er deliberately so as to force myself to use different muscles than I normally use, might my knees also feel a bit used as a result?

philbob57

Search web on knee pain and saddle height. IIRC, what you describe is common if the seat height is too low. See, for example, Knee Pain Cycling - Causes and Solutions - I Love Bicycling, which was just the 1st thing in the list of hits.

supton

It's possible I just took it too hard today. I attacked a couple hills at flat out. It'd be interesting if it was too low on the new bike, as the saddle feels very high when I put a foot down at a stop, teetering on my toes.

Hardrock23

How to Fit a Bicycle

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/ (scroll down to blue links on right side column)

10 Wheels

The Saddle is TOO LOW.

Raise it up a tad or go up high and see if your knee hurts underneath.

Take one foot off when you stop and lean to that side.

79pmooney

I'm confused. Is the seat on your "new" bike lower and further forward than what you have been riding, or higher and further back?

Your knee condition sounds like the early symptoms of chrondomalcia patella. Not good. CP knees really don't like big changes of seat height (or in my case, crank length). 1 cm both forward and down for back and up is a huge difference. (Think of seat position as being on a circle some distance from the BB. Rotating it forward and raising it a touch or back and lowering a little keeps it on that circle and the distance from your hip joint to the BB doesn't change. But that is forward and up or back and down.

If you search for "chrondomalcia patellae" and look for my used name, you should see one or more posts I wrote years ago re: CP. I know it intimately. Not a fun game. In the mean time. get your "new" bike's seat as close to your old bike's as you can, at least with respect to distance from BB so if CP is a potential for you,m you don't trigger it. Then make your changes gradually by small mounts to where you want to be. (Trust me, the medical bills will outweigh the cost of several seatposts to get the setbacks you need rather quickly.)

Ben

79pmooney

It sounds like your two bikes have different bottom bracket heights. (Line them up side by side or measure down from the center of the bottom bracket axle to the floor.) If so, get used to it. These are two very different bikes. On a high bottom bracket bike, having to slide forward off the saddle or lean to the side at stops is just what that bike is. Adjusting you seat to make that dismount the same would be like walking with bent knees or crouched over because your shoes have thick soles and high heels.

Ben

supton

Yesterday I rode the bike with the saddle at one location; today I rose it 1cm and back 1cm. So today was more up and more back than the first ride. First ride had my quads hitting my gut, and I couldn't pedal past 80% output; today, other than it felt "tall" I could put out full effort.

Couldn't find my metric measure but both bottom brackets measure 11" off the ground. I measured up both seat tubes, to top of saddle; old bike was 26.5" and new bike was 27". Looks like I raised it up 1cm higher than I'm used to. I'm not sure where it lands on the "back" scale though. New bike is more aggressive, slightly lower handlebar, and they are an inch further away, so I'm lying lower on the bike (might explain the quad-gut problem).

Right now there is just a dull ache below right knee cap, so I'm guessing something got stressed, and not in a good way. So I'll drop new saddle down to same height as my old bike, and ride the old bike this weekend (if I get a chance). Little reluctant to move it back forward as I know that setting doesn't work (although it doesn't cause knee problems). Actually, looking into "chrondomalcia patellae" the usual fix seems to be... raising the seat. ?

Big change, hard ride, no acclimation = poor results? Maybe I just overdid it?

Edit: just checked. I've been using MTB shoes with the cleats set under the ball of my foot. I switched over to toe clips, and it appears the balls of my feet are still over pedal spindle. So I think that factor may still be a constant.

McBTC

Could be gearing... are you pushing a higher gear than usual? If so, maybe try lowering the gear and increase the spin rate to achieve your desired mph.

Machka 

1) Yes, it can be a fit issue. Your fit isn't a set-it-once-and-forget-it thing. It changes for all sorts of reasons.

2) Your knees might feel better.

3) Put your bicycle up on a trainer, find a good site with suggested measurements, get a friend, a tape measure, and a plumb bob, and start measuring and adjusting. Just make the changes incrementally and slightly ... like maybe 3mm at a time.

canklecat

Do you have a video camera? Especially one that can be mounted to the handlebar? If so, aim it toward your waist and record video while riding. Best way I've found to check for appropriate saddle height and either rocking or over-extension. Also, use it to record yourself passing, approaching and riding away. Great way to check your riding position, especially if a proper fit is too expensive or there's no one qualified in your area.

A few months ago I occasionally experienced some lower back pain while riding, very unusual for me. I have chronic upper back, neck and shoulder pain from a car wreck and C2 injury, but rarely any real lower back or hip pain after the usual morning dull ache -- some stretches, coffee and ibuprofen always take care of that. But a sudden sharp ache out of nowhere? Very odd.

Coincidentally that week I was recording my usual video while riding -- camera mounted to my helmet -- but after an hour and a half the battery was exhausted. Usually when that happens I switch the camera to the handlebar but that day my handlebar bag was in the way. So I swiveled the camera to the sides and back toward me for a few different views while passing a historic old baseball park.

Later when I reviewed the video I noticed my hips rocking too much. That accounted for the sudden bout of hip and lower back pain. I'd adjusted the seat post a bit too high after mounting a new tail light on the seat post. Easily fixed, pain gone.

More recently I noticed an occasional knee twinge -- also uncommon for me. Despite some earlier minor knee injuries I'd escaped any serious problems and hadn't experienced any significant knee pain in years.

At the same time I noticed I was favoring the nose of the saddle, rather than the more comfortable padded rear of the saddle. This followed several weeks of dedicated hill training (well, as much as we get in this part of Texas). My legs were getting stronger and I wasn't sitting as heavily in the saddle, so my body was unconsciously finding the most efficient position. I'd consciously scoot back on the saddle to minimize pressure on the sit bones, but inevitably I'd be forward on the nose again.

I set the video camera up around waist high off the bike and recorded myself passing, approaching and riding away. Sure 'nuff, the saddle was too far back. I moved it forward half an inch or so this past week. Much more efficient.

However I am feeling a bit of soreness in the quads and calves. Muscle pain, not tendon or ligament strain. Just getting accustomed to a new position, using the legs more, not sitting in the saddle as heavily. When I do ease up I'm sitting more naturally in the saddle.

Retro Grouch 

What have you got to lose? Raise your saddle up a little bit. If you decide that you don't like it, you can always put it back down.

supton

That's what I did, and I was asking, is it normal to feel something sore afterwards? Or is soreness an indicator of wrongness? Where it's localized in the knee it seems wrong; had it been say a sore muscle it might be "just give it time for the body to acclimate."

supton

Interesting. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I'm nearly ten years old since I was first fitted, and stronger, dunno about flexibility (could go either way).

That Steve Hogg guy (and others) seemed to be against using plumb bobs and various measurement rules. Not that they don't work but they don't always work, and the "rules" seem to have no backing behind them. I want to say Hogg goes more by eyeball than anything: more along the lines of, raise seat until pedaling form goes wonky, then drop it, then address other issues (leg asymmetry, reach, etc). [Lather rinse repeat, I think it takes a while to dial it in.]

I recall reading Hogg saying that he makes cleat adjustment right away, but I don't recall if he recommended going slow on saddle changes slow or not. I suspect he goes right for the kill, and probably leans towards "take it easy". No sense in riding wrong the wrong fit.

*

Last night I did some quick back to back rides between my bikes, and the first thing I wanted to do on my old bike was to launch myself off the back of it. I noticed that the last couple of years--it's as if I want to stretch out while riding.

supton

I did notice a lower cadence with the raised seat. I've always felt like I couldn't mash, I've always had to go high cadence to get any power--other riders have commented to me that I'm spinning faster than anyone else. I used to have a cadence readout (and verified a few times off gearing vs mph charts), and I've always naturally turned 90rpm under moderate exertion--faster if I want more power. Unless if I'm out of the saddle I'm 90+. Otherwise the quads gave up after seconds.

supton

That's a good idea; I'll have to see what I can do. Probably fastest to enlist someone to film me, too bad the wife isn't available until tomorrow (and it'll be raining).

Machka 

Just physics ... buy hey ...

Your body on the bicycle is a machine. Set a machine up correctly, and it functions well. Set it up incorrectly, and it wears out sooner.

Regarding fit changes, as I said all kinds of things can change your fit including:
age
flexibility
injuries
fitness level

... even your shoes.

And regarding cadence, you want a faster cadence. You want 90 rpm.

supton

Sure, but it seemed Hogg didn't put much faith in measurements--he seemed to go by eye. Just sayin'. Which is why I was going to try and tackle this on my own, at least at first.

I'll see if I can bump up the cadence--it's hard to guess what it is, and I've been reluctant to buy an expensive computer for it. All I know is, I felt like I had way more power in this new setting, but perhaps at a lower rpm. It felt good.

Machka 

No need to guess. You can count your cadence, you know.

supton

Oh yeah, that is true. I did get a cheapo computer with a clock on it, I should see if it counts seconds. Of course, I'm usually not capable of thinking while pedaling hard (I usually feel flat out on hills, keeping my HR down, air up, cadence is by feel during that).

skidder

Many reasons:

- BB height is different (already mentioned above)
- BB width too large or small
- Seat position (height, forward or backward, tilt)
- Maybe the seat tube angle is different and causing the problem
- seat-to-handlebar distance too long/short.
. . . and . . .
- Crank arm length. I mention this as I had this problem. I only found this out after borrowing someone else's bicycle for a ride and noticing my knees' rotation didn't feel 'strange' as I was riding, nor sore after riding (as best as I can describe it). The only difference I noticed on that the borrowed bike had shorter crank arms. I bought a crank with shorter arms and it worked! Great fit, no more knee issues. FWIW: I went from 175mm to 170mm crank.

supton

Old bike runs 170mm cranks, new bike is 172.5mm. Close enough I'd think. Bike has to be different on angles; center of saddle/seatpost tube intersection to handlebars is 25" on old bike, 26" on new bike. But that's what I wanted: a more aggressive bike, for more aggressive riding (gotta keep up on group rides).

Took my old bike out and raised the saddle 5mm, moved it back 5mm. Did a 26 mile loop that I like. MMR said 3k feet climbing last time, and 1,900 feet this time, so... Despite moving to 28mm tires (from 25) and adding fenders I did it in the same 16.1mph average. My knees did start aching towards the end so I'll be curious how they do today. My lower back started aching too; I think moving the saddle back and up means I want the handlebars to do likewise. It's supposed to be my easy riding bike, and I was comfortable on it before; but with this change I noticed more weight on my arms. I did notice more glute work on this ride, at a few spots I seemed to be able to turn off the quads and feel something in the rump doing work.

coominya

I fit my own, it's not rocket science and since every body is different, all our bones of different lengths etc, who's to say a simple fit criteria fits all? As for your knee discomfort, that's a sure sign something is amiss unless you have been pushing it hard. I found my saddle was slightly too far back when I had that and a few mm of adjustment cured it but that was my fix, yours could be something else hey.

79pmooney

The plumb bob isn't a rule. It is a reference line you can measure to so you can make incremental changes yo can duplicate. I take it a step further. I put a piece of tape half way back the length of the saddle and measure to there for both the distance back and seat height. That tape is relatively close to my hip joints and is not affected much by changing the saddle tilt. (Some "experts" may espouse setting the seat nose at the plumb bob to the BB or some other "magic" distance. I am sure there are riders and applications where it works but I haven't read those authors and don't plan to.)

Ben

Doug64

I was fortunate enough to share an afternoon time slot at a a couple of wellness conferences with a Physical Therapist who specialized in bike fitting. After my wife and I finished our bike maintenance presentation the PT would use my wife and her bike to demonstrate how to fit a bike. My wife has a fit issue of unequal leg lengths. The PT took my wife on as a patient and fitted all her bikes, plus shimmed one of her cleats. The bottom line is that we picked up the basics of fitting, and yes measurements are important.

Seat height is adjusted to a height so your leg forms an approximate 150 degree angle at the knee when you foot is at the 6 o'clock position. Seat position, fore and aft, is adjusted so that the bottom of the knee cap is directly over the pedal's spindle. Yes, a plumb bob is used. Reach is adjusted by stem length. As one of the other posters said, this is the starting point. All this assumes you have the correct size frame to start with.

Generally, if the pain is in the front part of the knee the seat may be too low, seat may be too far forward, or you are mashing too high of gears, and long cranks.

If the pain is at the back of the knee the saddle is usually too high.

172.5 mm cranks are not considered long. However, being able to put a foot on the ground from the saddle indicates that the saddle is too low.

Just some thoughts. There are some good basic bike fitting videos on the internet.