mkadam68

I know what a palmares is. Just curious if anyone has one they'd like to show off and thoughts about it.

My son and I will be developing his, but I'm curious about layouts, details, formatting, etc...

Google only had a link to a discussion about what to include for UCI ProTour riders, but not applicable to our needs.

Creatre

Mine is pretty simple:

2/9/13 – Greenville Spring Training Series [50 Miles](Cat 3) – 16th
2/10/13 – Greenville Spring Training Series [50 Miles](Cat 3) – 5th
2/16/13 – Greenville Spring Training Series [45 Miles](Cat 3) – 5th

etc.

I keep multiple versions. One with full details, race distance, full field numbers, etc. Another with full details in addition to how each race affected my point count (and %) per category. And then the basic version like above that I show people. I bold the best results (big races, big fields, etc).

carpediemracing 

You want to tailor it to your audience, of course.

For example the year I went to Belgium (for 3 weeks) my teammate and I both realized just how hard those Elite level races were. The first race, 200+ starters, I hit 73 kph on the first (5 km, flat, and half cobbled) lap yet I got pulled because I was so far out of contention. When I got to the 1 km finishing straight I couldn't see the field. We couldn't finish one lap of those races - I finally managed to do one lap with a group in my last race. My teammate worked for a major bike company. When he saw a race resume with a slew of 15ths and 17ths and such from those exact races he was super impressed. The winners were being signed by the big pro teams and this was at the height of the EPO era, prior to any hematocrit checks etc. The other folks at the company were like "why is he telling us about 15th? what about the wins?". The rider didn't get the sponsorship. He had to be incredibly strong but his resume didn't illustrate that.

If you're looking for community service type stuff then that's a different story. Our team has an elite sub-team and they are heavily involved with volunteer efforts connected to the sponsor. They do fund raiser rides as ride ambassadors (encouragement, minor mechanical fixes, etc), they promote the sport in their team colors (corporate functions and rides), etc. For a sponsor that is looking for more than just results that would make a difference. The corporate sponsor actually has a budget for improving the quality of life in the area, with the idea that they can attract and retain good employees. They sponsor little things and big things, 5ks to marathons, various fund raising rides, etc. A slew of pictures and blog posts (or whatever) about the help the rider has given to particular charities etc would be really nice for such a sponsor.

I have no experience with this but based on what I've seen around the above stuff would make sense.

mattm

I thought "palmares" we're for pros, and schlubs like us just had race resumes.

Ygduf

Upgrade your paperwork today! Write how the pros write, at a reasonable cost!

mkadam68

Yeah, familiar with the basic one, as we've done one of those just for personal records and on the assumption he might need one later. But what do you mean, "full details"? Do you spell it out with a short sentence/paragraph or a bulleted item? Or just list the details? In a traditional employment resume, we usually have some sort of sentence/paragraph of explanation under some of the items.

Yeah, this would be a racing resume to send to potential teams. I hadn't thought of his Belgium results, though including those is an excellent idea. On a side note, SDC, how do you refer to these kermessen? None of them seemed to have an official name/title. I took to just calling them Omloop Hansbeke Junioren, for example.

mkadam68

I like to think my son isn't some "schlub" like me And hoping he'll have much more success in bike racing than I could ever dream of.

carpediemracing 

I would put down the name and the place/field. For those races I'd also note any better known racers, US national or travel team riders (if they were around), etc, to give a relative view of the race. European races need explanation.

Still, though, it's impossible to put some places into context without some kind of story. A guy that worked for me was on the US National team, I think he won collegiate nationals (RR) one year, he won L'Abitabi (sp?) twice. He had some nondescript placing in one particular national RR, collegiate or Elite I don't know. He had made a huge move, spent most of the race alone, and got caught. His placing doesn't reflect the gamble he took or the effort he made.

I think that w/kg, time trial placings, other solo type efforts, etc, would be significant. It shows the raw foundation the rider has. Everything else can be taught but genetic talent is what it is. For example all my placings etc would be fine but then you look and see that I time trial at the incredibly fast speed of 23.5 mph and you realize that, oh, this guy's a dud.

mkadam68

Would never have thought of putting vital stats on it. Good idea.

ovoleg

you're a schlub, now let me have your TT bike pls

mattm

Ah I forgot your kid was going/has gone places - I thought he was a cat 4 or something. =]

Best of luck to him!

mkadam68

Well, just between you & me (no one else looks at BikeForums, right?), he is a schlub. Mom & I still have to yell at him to clean his room.

(Currently cat-3, with unknown points toward 2 and some impressive Pro/1-3 race results.He's chomping at the bit to get off junior gears!)

Doge

That's hard in a younger rider. It does change with age and growth. I don't know when it stops, but I've heard around 21. I asked a race director when he thought my kid would peak - and he said 30.

carpediemracing 

I think that by the time a rider is about 15-16 you'll have a broad idea of what they will be able to do. I've watched two very good riders progress from 12 year olds that had a hard time hanging with a group ride to 14-15 year olds that were absolutely leg crushing. One won Tour L'Abitibi twice (and quit cycling due to doping). Another raced pro in Europe for 7 years then domestically for another 4 years or so.

When I was 17 I raced against an incredibly strong 16 year old. He womped me in the Junior race and I saw him basically pulling a Cat 1-2 field for his older teammates for a good 45 out of the 50 mile race. He later turned pro and raced successfully on the domestic US circuit.

At the same time when I was 15 I could do okay in sprints against locals (i.e. Cat 3-4 teammates in the same club) but I got absolutely slaughtered in TTs and anything to do with climbing.

I understand that, yes, kids mature for a long time. I reached my peak speeds sprinting when I was about 25 years old, I was probably the best physical condition when I was 25-28 years old, and I was probably in the best all-round condition in the 30-32 year old range, but I always lived within parameters that were well defined by the time I was 17 or 18. I just didn't know it at the time, but looking back at my racing history, it's pretty clear that my potential (and non-potential) had shown themselves long before I peaked in my strength and abilities.

Locally there's a pro that just got 3rd in the U23 National TT. He averaged 490w for the 33 minute effort. Although he may not have had that exact power a couple years ago he was strong enough, as a 19 year old, to attack pretty much from the *** of a 50 mile P12 race and solo something like 46 laps of it. When he was 15 a common theme was other Juniors parents complaining about how he ought to just do the 123 races because he blew apart every Junior race he did.

Another local hotshot placed something like 7th at Junior Nationals before getting 3rd at the Elite Nationals (RR). He won one race, while in moderately good form, by breaking away from the race solo. Graeme Miller and Jeff Rutter were in the race, two highly respected pros. A number of "lessor" pros were there and of course a bunch of Cat 1-2-3s. The hotshot's tactic? "I went 28 mph on the slow laps. When the gap came down a bit I'd do 31 mph for a lap or two, listen for the gap, and whenever it stabilized I'd slow down to 28 mph." This is a rider that did his races on box section wheels, wore a goofy helmet that sat way too high on his head, etc etc etc. He skipped all the tall aero wheels. He rode with his legs. His dad was a Cat 1, his grandad a pro trackie.

Another (maybe former? he might have moved) local strong rider got 7th? in Junior Worlds one year. He raced pro a bit (Europe), quit, got married, walked away from the racing scene. His wife found his scrapbook of clippings. She encouraged him to give it a shot if he wanted. He trained and ended up landing a spot on Cervelo Test Team for a year, at something like 30 years of age.

Talent is talent. A rider is born with it or not.

Doge

I agree by age 16 you have a pretty good idea. But VO2max and stuff like that keeps going up with proper training. It sure goes up from 12-16. Tour Labitibi is for 17 and 18 year olds and then you have a better idea. But consider that the only Junior World Champion RR winner to be an adult RR champion was Lemond.
Most those that won the junior worlds RR - we have not really heard from as pros. (The Junior TT champions we know today.)

So there are big changes that happen after that age 17/18. Significant enough that winning the biggest RR in the world at 17/18 has not meant you will be a decent pro at 23.
If it is not in the engine, it is in ability to learn to win races. And in the end, the winning races matters most - to most.

carpediemracing 

I agree that there's still progress after 17/18. Or, for some Juniors, the "lack of development", i.e. they hit puberty early. However the overall picture is there when they're 17/18 or at some similar age.

My skeptical outlook for a long time was that the Juniors that won or improved greatly either doped or started to dope. For example the aforementioned twice-L'Abitibi winner quit the sport in disgust (I'm biased since I know him) because one of the riders he absolutely trounced won Worlds the following year - Ullrich. Going from back of the field to being the best was a bit odd. There are some other riders that had similar "epiphanies". The elite rider I mentioned saw too much stuff himself, and as a math/science geek he had other alternatives (I think the fact that he was outspoken about the doping didn't help because no team wanted to sign him). Ditto the guy that raced in Europe. He was a bit more discrete. He now has a successful business but back in the day he said to me that to make it in Europe you had to dope, and he told me he really, really, really wanted to make it in Europe. Nonetheless he was absolutely flying when he was (I think) too young to be doing any heavy, characteristic-changing stuff. I think one Junior Worlds winner died of a stroke early on (I started following him because I grew up where he was born), maybe two. Etc.

One rider that won Fitchburg the year I did it (I got eliminated in the RR in his race) won Junior Worlds that year. I think his coach was the one that had to quit because he was allegedly doping Juniors.

However all those guys were absolutely incredible relative to the local racers (of all ages) once they hit about 15-16 years old. I think this is the case regardless of potential. When powermeters were relatively new someone did a study on relative power outputs, FTP-wise, and found that a Cat 5 was closer to a Cat 1 than a Cat 1 to a pro.

I don't follow the current Junior stuff so I can't speak for what's realistically beyond the post-high-test era, the supercharged 90s and early 2000s.

Doge

If you are saying you can predict pretty well at age 16 - I agree - pretty well. If you are saying they are done developing, I don't think so. I'm not as skeptical about drugs in the future for cycling as you are, but as my son points to college rather than a pro contract for his next step we don't worry too much about it. Its fun now.

My kid just turned 16 in July and I do expect a few years more development. Height / weight growth, increase in W/kg and VO2. He may in fact go down next to his peers. Primarily because most men are not physically fully developed until 18/19. I'm 6'2" he is under 5'9", I expect a change.

I think its hard to predict a what a 16 year old cyclist will be as an adult is because of the other variables mainly around youth racing is not the same as adult racing. Race endurance, gears, are all variable that change in older racing and someone that might win on flats spinning 170+ RPM at age 16, may find themselves getting dropped by that former pack fill on a long climb adult race. Besides cardio and power they have to learn how not to break. So many get sick, over do it and cannot pace themselves. That is part of growing up and some kids do it better than others. A few 17 year olds - USA Adrian Costa comes to mind can be labeled World Class now. But then as he is putting in twice the training hours and miles of some of the best 16 year olds, it again is hard to predict what they might do if/when they put that much time in (and we won't allow it yet). There is not enough race data to judge well yet.

We took VO2 snapshots at age 11. We are taking them again at age 16 and will the next couple years. The difference between 11 and 16 was significant.
I take power snapshots every year or so. I see big changes there too. So for my son, at least the plateau has not started yet. I realize it may, but I tend to think it will be closer to age 18/19 if girls cars or maybe some other money making opportunity doesn't get in the way.

Doge

So I'm trying to find a power chart that shows w/kg of cat 1/pro etc. and have seen and posted a couple different ones that have different numbers. A chart produced in the 2000s would, in my opinion, be pretty accurate in the Cat 2, Cat 1 area, but maybe a pit supercharged in the pro area. Know of any hormone free produced charts?

Ygduf

why spin 170 when you can spin 270

Doge

Because you put out more power at 170 than 270.

Ygduf

I would include that on the palmares.

carpediemracing 

I didn't think of that in the chart thing. I know that Coggan has posted here and he pointed out there are later charts which are better than the earlier ones. No reason given but I figure that's got to be part of it.

basqueonacaad

I submit my palmares instead of resumes for day jobs....yet to get a call back.

Doge

Having seen a few since reading this thread, I like the organization of this one. It puts Majors separately in chronological order. I think you could put the resume type stuff at the bottom with the Summary.

MAJOR RACE WINS

• 1ST National Road Race 1968
• 1ST Star Trophy / Premier Calender 1969 / 1970

STAR TROPHY / PREMIER CALENDAR WINS

• Deeside Grand Prix 1966
• Frank Tidmarsh GP 1966
• Tour Of The Peak 1966
• Leyland GP 1967 / 1969
• Harworth & District GP 1967
• Worcester St Johns GP 1967 / 1969
• Tour Of The Furness 1970

OTHER SIGNIFICANT WINS

• 1ST Boardwalk GP - Atlantic City - USA
• 1ST Houston GP - Houston, Texas - USA
• 1ST Stage 1 - Tour Of Ireland ( Yellow Jersey Wearer )

OTHER SIGNIFICANT PLACINGS

• 6TH Apple Lap - New York - USA
• 5TH Overall - Tour Of Ireland 1966
• 3RD Overall - Tour Of Ireland 1967
• 3RD National Road Race 1969
• 3RD National Road Race 1970
• 3RD Manx International
• 3RD World Vets Road Race Championships
• 3RD European Vets Road Race Championships

ENGLAND REPRESENTION

• 7 Milk Race ( 1965 - 1972 )
• 5 Manx International ( 1966 - 1972 )
• World Road Race Championships - Leicester ( 1970 )
• Chequers GP (1966)
• Tour Of Namar - Belgium (1967 )
• Tour De La'Avenir ( Amateur Tour De France ) (1967 )
• Scottish Milk Race ( 1969,71 )
• Starburets GP - Norway ( 1969 )
• Tour Of Algeria ( 1970 )
• Tour Of Annaba ( 1970 )
• Munich GP - Germany ( 1970 )
• Majorca 4 Day ( 1998 )
• Tour Of Scotland ( 1966,69,71 )

• A total of 23 Occasions were representing England / Great Britain.
• 22 Veteran National Championships.
• 354 Wins To Date.
• Short Listed For Mexico Olympic Games - 1968
• Short Listed For Munich Olympic Games - 1972

Pete Matthews - Specialist Wheel Builder - Palmarès

Doge

Here's another mini resume at top:

Born: June 23, 1965
Place of birth: Jamaica New York
Lives: Newbury Park, CA
Height: 6'0 (1.83m)
Weight: 185lb (84 kg)
Management Career
2001-2002
Prime Alliance Cycling Team, General Manager
2000-2001
AutoTrader.com Cycling Team, Director of Operations
1998-2000
Mercury Cycling Team, Rider/Assistant Manager
1995-1997
US Men's National and Olympic Team Road Coach
1994
US Junior National Team Coach
Cycling Career
2000 (Mercury)
1st Boulevard Road Race (CA)
1st Merced Criterium (CA)
1999 (Mercury)
1st stage 2 Dayton Cycling Classic (OH)
1st stage 4 Heart of it All Stage Race (OH)
1st Extreme Criterium (CA)
1998 (Mercury)
1st stage 3 Fitchburg Cycling Classic (MA)
1st stage 1 Tour of Willamette (OR)
1st stage 2 Three Days of Redding (CA)
1st Fort Morgan Criterium (CO)
1993 (Coors Light)
1st Hotter-n-Hell road race (TX)
1992 (Coors Light)
2nd overall La Vuelta de Bisbee (AZ)
1st Hotter-n-Hell criterium (TX)
1991 (Coors Light)
1st overall Killington Stage Race (VT)
1st Dole Citrus Classic (CA)
1st Tempe Grand Prix (AZ)
1st stage 3 Victoria Stage Race (Canada)
1st Proctor and Gamble Classic (IL)
1989 (7 Eleven)
1st stage 3 Killington Stage Race (VT)
1st stage 4 Coors Classic (CA,NV,CO)
1st stage 1 Tour of Texas (TX)
6th stage 5 Tour de France
1988 (7 Eleven)
1st overall, stage 1 & 2, Monterey Stage Race (Mexico)
1st stage 4 Tour of Americas (Florida/Venuzuala)
1st Bannock Criterium (CO)
1987 (Toshiba/La Vie Claire)
1st stage 6 Tour of Switzerland (Switzerland)
1st stage 8 Dauphine Libere (France)
1st overall & stage 1 Whisky Creek Stage Race (CA)
1st stage 2 LA Vuelta de Bisbee (AZ)
1st Mulholland Classic (CA)
1st overall & stage 3 A to Z Cycling Classic (OH)
1986 (Toshiba/La Vie Claire)
1st overall & stage 3 Washington Trust Cycling Classic (WA)
2nd stage 2 Tour de L'Avenir (France, Portugal)
3rd stage 4 Giro d'Italia (Italy)
1985 (Levi/Isuzu)
1st stage 2 Tour of Berlin (Germany)
2nd overall (1st U23) Milk Race (England)
1st overall & stage 3 Vulcan Tour (CA)
1st overall & stage 4 Whisky Creek Stage Race (CA)
1st overall & stage 2: La Vuelta de Bisbee (AZ)
1st stage 3 Tour of Texas (TX)
1984 (Levi/Raleigh)
1st overall & stage 2 Commonwealth Bank Cycling Classic (Australia)
1st TTT National Road Championships (NH)
3rd Olympic Games 100k Team Time Trial (USA)
1983 (Levi/Raleigh)
1st overall & stage 2 Vosleur Jugend Tour (Austria)
1st RR, TT & criterium Junior National Road Championships (CA)
1st points, 3km pursuit Junior National Track Championships (PA)
2nd 4km team pursuit Junior Worlds Championships (New Zealand)
1982 (SBBC/Centurian)
1st National Cyclo Cross Championships
1st RR, TT, Criterium Jr. National Road Championships (WI)
2nd 3km pursuit Jr. National Track Championships (WI)
1981 (North Hollywood Wheelmen)
1st criterium National Road Championships (NY,OH)
1st overall & stage 1 Super Week Juniors (WI)
1st UCSD Criterium (CA)