Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Time trial using IGH

Old 09-26-19, 07:44 PM
  #1  
rudypyatt
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 233

Bikes: Windsor TimeLine; Linus Gaston 3; Sears Free Spirit

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Time trial using IGH

I recently read about the Raliegh/Sturmey-Archer team of the pre-war years. They used various S-A hub gears to set their records, including some pretty good average speeds (as high as 27 mph over a 25 mile course, I believe. But I will post a link to the article by Peter Kohler).

Thatís pretty impressive for a three speed hub. Are hub gears allowed in modern time trials?

ipernity: Raleigh/Sturmey-Archer Team 1936-40 by Peter Kohler
rudypyatt is offline  
Old 09-27-19, 10:25 AM
  #2  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,752

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 796 Post(s)
Liked 493 Times in 337 Posts
They're not as efficient, even to the detriment of better aero.

Then, it would be a custom build into any kind of wheel a modern TT rider would want to run. You couldn't run disc, you'd have to run an 808 or something like that.

With all the things adding up against it, there's reasons other than rules that people don't use them for that purpose.
burnthesheep is offline  
Likes For burnthesheep:
Old 09-27-19, 11:43 AM
  #3  
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Posts: 3,137

Bikes: Ridley Excal, CAAD10, CAAD12, Felt DA, Dolan

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 183 Post(s)
Liked 27 Times in 23 Posts
If it's a flat TT there have also been some very fast times in the past Fixed which doesn't give up much to 3 speed for gearing and can be very efficient/aero. US 40K national record (still held by John Frey) on a 52x13 being one example.

I know it was a fast course but it's amazing that the oldest record in the USA Cycling book is in the discipline that should be most impacted by technology.

Last edited by Voodoo76; 09-27-19 at 11:47 AM.
Voodoo76 is offline  
Likes For Voodoo76:
Old 09-27-19, 12:13 PM
  #4  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,752

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 796 Post(s)
Liked 493 Times in 337 Posts
The key here isn't # of speeds, it's the internal gear hub.

Nothing says you can't go single speed in a TT if you want to. If it's pan flat, you could have an aero and efficiency advantage if you can manage the gear.

People still probably do single speed and maybe have single speed classes for TT races.

Cross often has a single speed race class.
burnthesheep is offline  
Old 09-27-19, 07:45 PM
  #5  
Ttoc6
Cat 2
 
Ttoc6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: UT
Posts: 1,569

Bikes: Tarmac, Why Cycles R+, Evil The Calling

Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 605 Post(s)
Liked 189 Times in 86 Posts
I race ss cross for the fun of it. Makes me focus on efficiency in the corners. Less braking etc. Check out the UK time trialling forums. They have a whole group dedicated to fixed gear road and track tts.

Last edited by Ttoc6; 09-28-19 at 11:46 PM.
Ttoc6 is offline  
Old 12-12-19, 11:36 AM
  #6  
caloso
Senior Member
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 38,921

Bikes: Ridley Excalibur, Gazelle Champion Mondial, On-One Pompino, Specialized Rock Hopper

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2199 Post(s)
Liked 835 Times in 439 Posts
A couple of years ago I did the TT portion of an omnium on a FG. Totally flat (canal path) with a couple of humps to get up on the levee. Worked really well, the only issue was worrying about pedal strike on the tight turn around on the out-and-back.
caloso is offline  
Old 12-14-19, 05:29 PM
  #7  
63rickert
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,551
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 759 Post(s)
Liked 150 Times in 114 Posts
Run in medium gear, direct drive, a Sturmey is 100% efficient. How much power is lost to heat in high or low gear is not resolved, different authorities have different answers. In any case running with close ratio hubs is going to be much better than running the typical AW. The vintage hubs you are thinking of would be all or mostly hand machined gears rather than the later powder metallurgy cast gears. You are always running in perfect chainline and there are no pulleys.

Some practical considerations. I am no Sturmey expert but I believe these hubs (AR, AC, AF, FC) will all be 114mm over locknut. 4-1/2". The older ones might be even narrower, won't be wider. There's a limit to how many washers you want on the axle and an absolute limit before you have to come up with a longer axle. Which you will have to make.Most of the ones you will find will have threaded drivers which makes it easy, use a standard fixed cog. Old AR hubs might have the real old spline pattern, not sure. Almost everything you will find will be 40 hole, so use 20 spokes one cross or two cross and a rim strong enough to hold up. That would be lots of modern aero rims.

Which brings us to another point. The old times you are looking at are all aero-nothing. Even the clothes are not that tight and in some cases are quite loose. The roads just might be smooth for a few 25 mile courses. None of the longer courses will be on good pavement. Most climbs, even small ones, will not be that well graded. Everyone is using position and pedal style derived from need for survival on rough roads. That style could in some cases be aero, witness Greg Lemond or Fausto Coppi. But it was not something they much thought about and you can see it. Most of these rides will be on tubulars but there will be no light tubulars except track tubulars and those would only be used on short and unusually smooth courses. Rims were as light as now but of course they were flat. And everyone will be on 40 spokes rear 32 front.

Unless one of these lovely old hubs just falls into your hands I'd suggest having a go at fixed gear before starting the search for an old hub. Also limit the search to hubs in top condition, low miles. You aren't finding parts except by sheer luck and the English racked up big miles and were hardly noted for good maintenance.

One of the standard tropes for old English TTs, limited of course to the top riders, was to do early season TTs on the winter bike. WIth full mudguards and clinchers. Those clinchers were slow. Standard gear, "medium gear" of 48x18 fixed. Don't switch to the geared bike until you beat the hour for 25 miles in that 72" fixed. Yes, you can go fast without all the latest.
63rickert is offline  
Old 12-14-19, 05:56 PM
  #8  
Trakhak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 1,990
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 499 Post(s)
Liked 142 Times in 96 Posts
One mostly forgotten factor contributing to the amazing average speeds attained in the '50s by the British time trialing elite: most time trails were conducted in those days on open courses, i.e., with automobile traffic running parallel to the riders and buffeting them along at higher speeds than they would otherwise have attained.
Trakhak is offline  
Old 02-01-20, 04:57 PM
  #9  
Doge
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 9,955

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 151 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3144 Post(s)
Liked 147 Times in 107 Posts
Originally Posted by 63rickert View Post
Run in medium gear, direct drive, a Sturmey is 100% efficient. How much power is lost to heat in high or low gear is not resolved, different authorities have different answers.
100% efficient and heat loss do not go together. My 1st TT was on a SA 3 speed hub.

They have gear friction, they have oil friction. They have some slack in freewheeling.
Doge is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.