Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Advocating for cameras on bikes.

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Advocating for cameras on bikes.

Old 05-06-19, 03:38 PM
  #276  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 11,596

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5547 Post(s)
Liked 178 Times in 119 Posts
So ... what earbuds have the highest safety ratings?
Maelochs is offline  
Old 05-07-19, 04:51 PM
  #277  
sirkaos
Senior Member
 
sirkaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Santa Clarita, CA
Posts: 133

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Roubaix Expert, Surley Karate Monkey 29er hard tail

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts

Snap shot of a truck that missed us by 12 inches. Note towing mirrors are out. Also note extra room next to the solid double yellow. Speed of the truck was estimated around 50-55. Our speed was about 28-30 mph. This video/snap shot was taken at a long straight section of a road called San Fransquito Canyon. We all had tail lights, clear skies, light traffic, dry road conditions. There was no excuse for how little room this driver gave us.

I presented the video along with this snap shot to the CA Highway Patrol. They usually don't greet cyclists with open arms, but I was surprised at the support I received. He said all he could do was to communicate with the owner of the vehicle. That was enough for us. I bet the driver was surprised as he** when he got that call. Maybe he will give the 3 feet of room that the law dictates.

For me, this one episode more than justified the few extra grams of a rear facing/tail light assembly adds. Cost? This is like debating the cost of getting a brighter and more visible headlight. No debate what so ever.

Last edited by sirkaos; 05-07-19 at 04:54 PM.
sirkaos is offline  
Likes For sirkaos:
Old 05-07-19, 05:14 PM
  #278  
JW Fas
Cop Magnet
 
JW Fas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 102
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by sirkaos View Post

Snap shot of a truck that missed us by 12 inches. Note towing mirrors are out. Also note extra room next to the solid double yellow. Speed of the truck was estimated around 50-55. Our speed was about 28-30 mph. This video/snap shot was taken at a long straight section of a road called San Fransquito Canyon. We all had tail lights, clear skies, light traffic, dry road conditions. There was no excuse for how little room this driver gave us.

I presented the video along with this snap shot to the CA Highway Patrol. They usually don't greet cyclists with open arms, but I was surprised at the support I received. He said all he could do was to communicate with the owner of the vehicle. That was enough for us. I bet the driver was surprised as he** when he got that call. Maybe he will give the 3 feet of room that the law dictates.

For me, this one episode more than justified the few extra grams of a rear facing/tail light assembly adds. Cost? This is like debating the cost of getting a brighter and more visible headlight. No debate what so ever.
I also recommend cataloging negligent or aggressive drivers on the Close Call Database and Rate Driver. That way there is a record of their behavior for posterity.

https://closecalldatabase.com/

https://rate-driver.com/
JW Fas is offline  
Likes For JW Fas:
Old 05-11-19, 08:46 AM
  #279  
Loose Chain
Senior Member
 
Loose Chain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 2,071

Bikes: 84 Pinarello Trevisio, 86 Guerciotti SLX, 96 Specialized Stumpjumper, 2010 Surly Cross Check, 88 Centurion Prestige, 73 Raleigh Sports, GT Force, Bridgestone MB4

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 278 Post(s)
Liked 62 Times in 49 Posts
Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Allow me to disillusion you: Cameras absolutely affect behavior -- provided they're visible. That's been proven many times and in many situations.
I agree, it is just that most people do not know what the dash cameras are, or that there are cameras on your helmet etc. They are clueless.
Loose Chain is offline  
Old 05-11-19, 10:04 AM
  #280  
KraneXL
 
KraneXL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: La-la Land, CA
Posts: 3,623

Bikes: Cannondale Quick SL1 Bike - 2014

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3402 Post(s)
Liked 228 Times in 177 Posts
Originally Posted by Loose Chain View Post
I agree, it is just that most people do not know what the dash cameras are, or that there are cameras on your helmet etc. They are clueless.
Pretty conspicuous, wouldn't you say?


KraneXL is offline  
Old 05-11-19, 10:44 AM
  #281  
Shimagnolo
Senior Member
 
Shimagnolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 8,827
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1734 Post(s)
Liked 232 Times in 161 Posts
The cameras I use on my cycling and motorcycle helmets are small black cylinders.
The one on the cycling helmet is on top, and half the people I meet think it is a headlight.
The one on the motorcycle helmet mounts on the righthand side, next to my jaw, and in all probability, no one sees it.
I wouldn't be caught dead with a clunky, box-like GoPro sticking off my helmet.
They are functionally good cameras, but the form-factor suck rocks for helmet use.
Shimagnolo is offline  
Likes For Shimagnolo:
Old 05-11-19, 10:49 AM
  #282  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 11,596

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5547 Post(s)
Liked 178 Times in 119 Posts
If the driver was paying attention to the cyclist, the camera wouldn't make a difference, and if the driver wasn't, the camera wouldn't be noticed.

Been said, and ignored, by people who value winning an internet debate over making sense.

Frankly, if I werre passing a cyclist while driving, I might not notice the camera, because I wouldn't be watching the rider's head---i'd be watching the rider's body mass, the other cars around and behind, oncoming traffic, and road debris on the road edge ahead (because I know how much that matters, which most drivers who don't ride don't understand.) Unless the cyclist came up across from me while we were both stopped at an intersection I likely wouldn't notice the camera .... and I guarantee you Nobody notices a rear-view camera.

But, to restate the obvious point people are obviously denying ... if the driver sees the rider, the driver will generally not hit the rider. If the driver does not see the rider, the driver will not see the camera.

Most collisions are from the side, so the helmet-cam is worthless anyway. Most of the rest are from the rear, so the helmet-cam is worthless anyway.

But I certainly do not care what other riders wear on their heads, or under their seats, or on their bars or stems, or anywhere else.

And I always get a good chuckle from people who have to take, "Here is not a bad idea" and transform it into "This is the Only Way to Live" as soon as one or two people don't agree. Glad I meet those folks on the internet, where I can scroll down or shut the page.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 05-11-19, 11:06 AM
  #283  
Shimagnolo
Senior Member
 
Shimagnolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zang's Spur, CO
Posts: 8,827
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1734 Post(s)
Liked 232 Times in 161 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Unless the cyclist came up across from me while we were both stopped at an intersection I likely wouldn't notice the camera .... and I guarantee you Nobody notices a rear-view camera.
I had parked my motorcycle at a convenience store once, and got into a conversation with a guy driving a pickup, who was also a biker. When he asked about my rear camera, I was floored. We were 30' away from my bike, and the camera he noticed was a 1" x 3" black cylinder under my tail-rack. The guy must have eyes like a peregrine falcon.
Shimagnolo is offline  
Old 05-11-19, 11:12 AM
  #284  
wphamilton
Senior Member
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 14,805

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2676 Post(s)
Liked 121 Times in 84 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
If I were you, I think I'd want to find something better to do than "wait for the day" you get to say "I told you so". I know I'm taking the chance that I won't catch an incident "on tape", ...
That "told you so" seldom works anyway. One person would think that stopping road center, in the intersection turning paths, where you already know it's a dangerous intersection, and then having an inattentive driver almost run over you would prove that you stopped in a dangerous place while another will think it proves how effective his camera was because he caught the driver being inattentive. Priorities and perspective.

I sometimes kind of want one for when something interesting happens on a ride, and I've even messed around with BT pairing one phone as video for the other (to double the use as a rear view display). But it's always too much hassle for the utility, so the advocacy has failed to convince. If someone actually hit me, and I was riding 100% legally at the time, I might wish that I had it recorded. But without a good body of precedent where the video was the difference in court or with insurance liability, it's hard to project any probabilities into that.
wphamilton is offline  
Old 05-11-19, 01:50 PM
  #285  
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 28,016

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked 247 Times in 155 Posts
Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Pretty conspicuous, wouldn't you say?
So is this and about equally hideous.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 05-11-19, 04:24 PM
  #286  
logical
______
 
logical's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 133
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
If the driver was paying attention to the cyclist, the camera wouldn't make a difference, and if the driver wasn't, the camera wouldn't be noticed.


But, to restate the obvious point people are obviously denying ... if the driver sees the rider, the driver will generally not hit the rider. If the driver does not see the rider, the driver will not see the camera.

Most collisions are from the side, so the helmet-cam is worthless anyway. Most of the rest are from the rear, so the helmet-cam is worthless anyway.
You assume hitting the cyclist with the car is the only bad thing that can happen. If a person sees the cyclist with a camera he may think twice about doing other things like a passenger throwing something or a close pass by the driver. Cameras most certainly do alter people's behavior. The cameras are for the things that don't generally happen.

Also as stated types of cameras can catch all angles.
logical is offline  
Old 05-11-19, 04:44 PM
  #287  
Loose Chain
Senior Member
 
Loose Chain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 2,071

Bikes: 84 Pinarello Trevisio, 86 Guerciotti SLX, 96 Specialized Stumpjumper, 2010 Surly Cross Check, 88 Centurion Prestige, 73 Raleigh Sports, GT Force, Bridgestone MB4

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 278 Post(s)
Liked 62 Times in 49 Posts
Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Pretty conspicuous, wouldn't you say?


Your GoPro is not the typical looping helmet/dash/personal camera. And, you would be amazed.
Loose Chain is offline  
Old 05-11-19, 05:10 PM
  #288  
Lemond1985
Sophomore Member
 
Lemond1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,935
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1142 Post(s)
Liked 450 Times in 303 Posts
Boy, the look on that guy's face is SCARY. He looks quite accusatory, like he ought to be saying:



"So you like running red lights?"
Lemond1985 is offline  
Old 05-12-19, 04:01 AM
  #289  
KraneXL
 
KraneXL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: La-la Land, CA
Posts: 3,623

Bikes: Cannondale Quick SL1 Bike - 2014

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3402 Post(s)
Liked 228 Times in 177 Posts
Originally Posted by Loose Chain View Post
Your GoPro is not the typical looping helmet/dash/personal camera. And, you would be amazed.
It doesn't have to be. The advantage comes from it being visible. That alone is enough to affect negative behavior. We're not creating any new science here. This has already been determined long ago.
KraneXL is offline  
Old 05-13-19, 09:28 AM
  #290  
livedarklions
Cyclesomatic
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 5,669

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Motobecane Fantom CX; Giant OCR A1

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2932 Post(s)
Liked 1,349 Times in 813 Posts
Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
It doesn't have to be. The advantage comes from it being visible. That alone is enough to affect negative behavior. We're not creating any new science here. This has already been determined long ago.
Really? There's a scientific study showing that wearing a helmet cam positively affects drivers' behaviour? By all means, put up a link to it.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 05-16-19, 10:51 AM
  #291  
JW Fas
Cop Magnet
 
JW Fas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 102
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 15 Posts
Edit: Since this forum bleeps out R3ddit, go to r/CyclistsWithCameras.
/r/CyclistsWithCameras/comments/bp01zl/us_my_hit_and_run_driver_got_caught_cameras_ftw/

There were eyewitnesses. None stopped to help or provide testimony, and as stated before there is no legal obligation to do so. There may have been CCTV footage from a nearby building, but aside from it not being a guarantee the owner of said security cameras doesn't have to hand over the video unless subpoenaed (also assumes they keep the footage for a while).

Last edited by JW Fas; 05-16-19 at 10:56 AM.
JW Fas is offline  
Old 05-24-19, 04:18 PM
  #292  
Chris0516
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Washington Grove, Maryland
Posts: 1,466

Bikes: 2003 (24)20-Speed Specialized Allez'

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Allow me to disillusion you: Cameras absolutely affect behavior -- provided they're visible. That's been proven many times and in many situations.
That is why I don't make my camera visible. So a driver won't know that, they were 'Caught on Camera'.​​​​
Chris0516 is offline  
Old 05-25-19, 07:51 AM
  #293  
JW Fas
Cop Magnet
 
JW Fas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 102
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 15 Posts
https://whotv.com/2019/05/24/caught-...ear-indianola/

Multiple eyewitnesses, but none helped or gave testimony (once again, no legal obligation to do so). It was a country road, so there was pretty much a 0% chance of CCTV footage capturing the incident. The cyclist's footage alone led to the driver being tracked down which, had a camera not been running, likely wouldn't have led to this positive result. Trying to read and memorize a license plate with that speed differential is difficult.
JW Fas is offline  
Old 05-25-19, 10:15 AM
  #294  
KraneXL
 
KraneXL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: La-la Land, CA
Posts: 3,623

Bikes: Cannondale Quick SL1 Bike - 2014

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3402 Post(s)
Liked 228 Times in 177 Posts
Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
https://whotv.com/2019/05/24/caught-...ear-indianola/

Multiple eyewitnesses, but none helped or gave testimony (once again, no legal obligation to do so). It was a country road, so there was pretty much a 0% chance of CCTV footage capturing the incident. The cyclist's footage alone led to the driver being tracked down which, had a camera not been running, likely wouldn't have led to this positive result. Trying to read and memorize a license plate with that speed differential is difficult.
Mr. Carpenter is a little too forgiving. The boy and his friend need to learn a lesson in that they could have caused the cyclist serious harm or death had he lost control. Intentionally running someone off the road is a felony.

At minimum those boys should have been given a couple hundred hours of community service. You can't purposely put someone's life in danger like that and then just get off just by saying you're sorry. They need public embarrassment so that people know why they are and what they did.
KraneXL is offline  
Old 05-28-19, 11:08 AM
  #295  
no motor?
Senior Member
 
no motor?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 6,178

Bikes: Specialized Hardrock

Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1112 Post(s)
Liked 142 Times in 109 Posts
Originally Posted by Loose Chain View Post
I agree, it is just that most people do not know what the dash cameras are, or that there are cameras on your helmet etc. They are clueless.
There used a big yellow sign saying state law requires stopping for pedestrians crosswalk by my old office. I used to point my phone at people who didn't have any intention of stopping for me when I was in that marked crosswalk and it was great to see the sudden change in their behavior when they realized I could be taking their picture while they violated that law just beyond that sign. Not pointing the phone at them didn't have that effect, neither did pointing at the sign. The camera was the only thing that had any effect.
no motor? is offline  
Likes For no motor?:
Old 05-28-19, 03:46 PM
  #296  
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 11,596

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 139 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5547 Post(s)
Liked 178 Times in 119 Posts
Originally Posted by no motor? View Post
There used a big yellow sign saying state law requires stopping for pedestrians crosswalk by my old office. I used to point my phone at people who didn't have any intention of stopping for me when I was in that marked crosswalk and it was great to see the sudden change in their behavior when they realized I could be taking their picture while they violated that law just beyond that sign. Not pointing the phone at them didn't have that effect, neither did pointing at the sign. The camera was the only thing that had any effect.
again, a situation in no way related to riding on a bike with cars coming up from different angles and possibly not even looking close enough to see if you are wearing a helmet, let alone if there is a camera on it.

If you ride one-handed with your phone in your free hand and visibly aim it at every car around you, that might have some effect ... probably the effect of distracting you from safely riding.

In certain situations cameras have effects on behavior ... but there is no evidence that riding a bike is such a situation. The guy who was hit by a cop and caught it all on camera ... had a camera.
Maelochs is offline  
Old 05-28-19, 04:57 PM
  #297  
no motor?
Senior Member
 
no motor?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 6,178

Bikes: Specialized Hardrock

Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1112 Post(s)
Liked 142 Times in 109 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
again, a situation in no way related to riding on a bike with cars coming up from different angles and possibly not even looking close enough to see if you are wearing a helmet, let alone if there is a camera on it.

If you ride one-handed with your phone in your free hand and visibly aim it at every car around you, that might have some effect ... probably the effect of distracting you from safely riding.

In certain situations cameras have effects on behavior ... but there is no evidence that riding a bike is such a situation. The guy who was hit by a cop and caught it all on camera ... had a camera.
Sorry I missed those crucial details and merely attempted to show that drivers will change their behavior if they feel their actions are being recorded. I now realize this has nothing to do with US drivers on public roads when bicycles are involved.
no motor? is offline  
Old 05-28-19, 05:22 PM
  #298  
KraneXL
 
KraneXL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: La-la Land, CA
Posts: 3,623

Bikes: Cannondale Quick SL1 Bike - 2014

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3402 Post(s)
Liked 228 Times in 177 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
again, a situation in no way related to riding on a bike with cars coming up from different angles and possibly not even looking close enough to see if you are wearing a helmet, let alone if there is a camera on it.

If you ride one-handed with your phone in your free hand and visibly aim it at every car around you, that might have some effect ... probably the effect of distracting you from safely riding.

In certain situations cameras have effects on behavior ... but there is no evidence that riding a bike is such a situation. The guy who was hit by a cop and caught it all on camera ... had a camera.
That some really bizarro world logic you have going there. Simply stated, cameras do affect people's behavior. There is ample research and observation to make that perfectly clear to anyone open to reason and logic. A situation analysis is both unnecessary and irrelevant here.
KraneXL is offline  
Likes For KraneXL:
Old 05-29-19, 09:46 AM
  #299  
livedarklions
Cyclesomatic
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 5,669

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Motobecane Fantom CX; Giant OCR A1

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2932 Post(s)
Liked 1,349 Times in 813 Posts
Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
That some really bizarro world logic you have going there. Simply stated, cameras do affect people's behavior. There is ample research and observation to make that perfectly clear to anyone open to reason and logic. A situation analysis is both unnecessary and irrelevant here.
This would be the point where you actually link to the research and observation you're claiming exists. For all we know, you might be talking about ISIS videos, but I don't think that's the effect we're looking for.

You're claiming that there is "ample research" showing that the presence of cameras makes people act more in conformity with rules, right? Now, you've added the claim that the situation of those cameras is "irrelevant"? Really? Should I start a list of people who have deliberately videoed themselves doing horrible things to other people?

"Bald assertion" does not equal "logic and reason" no matter how many times you make that claim. You obviously confuse those things in a lot of threads on a lot of subjects.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 05-29-19, 09:58 AM
  #300  
livedarklions
Cyclesomatic
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 5,669

Bikes: Trek FX 3; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Motobecane Fantom CX; Giant OCR A1

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2932 Post(s)
Liked 1,349 Times in 813 Posts
Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
https://whotv.com/2019/05/24/caught-...ear-indianola/

Multiple eyewitnesses, but none helped or gave testimony (once again, no legal obligation to do so). It was a country road, so there was pretty much a 0% chance of CCTV footage capturing the incident. The cyclist's footage alone led to the driver being tracked down which, had a camera not been running, likely wouldn't have led to this positive result. Trying to read and memorize a license plate with that speed differential is difficult.

How do you know there were multiple witnesses or that none helped or gave testimony? He appears to have kept on riding, so I don't know what "give help" would mean in this context anyway, but more to the point, I can't tell from that video how many people would have actually perceived what happened. The oncoming cars would not see clearly the side of the car where the idiot is hanging out or the closeness of the swerve, and the vehicle immediately behind in the same lane is pretty far back and the driver maybe not that focused that far ahead or even able to appreciate the extent of the swerve if they were. I certainly can't tell from the video whether the witnesses, if any, actually came forward and talked to the police.

I agree that he likely wouldn't have been tracked down without the video but you really don't know that's because people were willfully ignoring the situation.
livedarklions is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.