Abe_Froman

So...

I did one cyclocross race in 2017. First race of any sort actually, and LOTS of fun

I held my own, in my estimation (especially accounting for I'm 38, going against a bunch of guys in their 20s lol ), finishing 99th out of 125, even with a 90sec loss to a mechanical on the first lap.

Anywho...I'm sort of hooked now, and want to really get on my fitness/speed/overall cycling ability, but really for cyclocross performance.

So the plan right now is to continue commuting straight through winter ~80-100 miles per week. I tend to go harder than just an easy spin; definitely push myself, but not to where I'm huffing puffing the whole way and a sweaty mess when I get in.

I've started adding in ~3 30min HIIT sessions per week on my trainer in addition to my commuting mileage.

I guess my question is...is this enough to make a difference performance wise? Is this too much...possible burnout?

I'm a bit new to dedicated training, if you can't tell.

redlude97

Do you own a HRM? Use it to determine your lactate threshold HR. Cyclocross is mainly sitting right at that point for the majority of the race. Base your training off that. HIIT will not continue to add fitness however

Abe_Froman

I don't currently have a HR monitor. But, you're saying interval training will NOT add fitness?

redlude97

Continuing with the same HIIT training will eventually cause you to plateau

Abe_Froman

Hrmm. Maybe I'm missing something. That principal applies to all athletic training, yes? I mean obviously the idea is I would continually go harder/faster/longer/etc as fitness improves to keep challenging my body.

redlude97

Training requires periodization with a goal of a peak per season with emphasis on specific types of fitness. Gaining fitness should happen in cycles.

Jakedatc

I would add running some short steep hill repeats to work on hard run ups. You can add some mount/dismount drills to that. Ie run up the hill.. mount.. ride back down the hill. dismount. run up the hill. (on dirt or grass if possible) Mountain biking will also improve your off road technique and get you more comfortable at speed on rough ground. Almost everyone decent in the 4/5 will be fairly strong but not everyone is smooth and confident.

Abe_Froman

I watched the Cat 4 race before my Cat 4/5...it was comical how many pileups there were on an off camber double switchback going down a steep grade. Every couple minutes there were 4-5 people on top of each other against the downhill fence lol

I'm honestly shocked I got through the section unscathed

12strings

As a first year cyclocross racer this past season, but with about 1.5 yrs of sporadic hiit experience...i would think 3 hiit sessions a week is a lot for one not already at high fitness, and could lead to burnout, eapcially if you don't have a rest week after about 3 weeks of that.

I saw good results and gains with 2 sessions per week, or only 1 if I had another hard ride that week. Recovery is very important.

As for plateau...I didn't experience it, but I also only would keep at it for 3-4 weeks, then ease off, lose a bit of fitness and go again...but each time I would make new gains.

Also, for those of us going only by feel, no power or heart meters...I would say that an "all out effort" at the beginning of a season will not be the same as an " all out effort" a month later...it will be more powerful...So it DOES progress, not stagnate as it would if you just did, say, 600 watt efforts over and over again.

Doge

Too much. Burnout is more a mental thing, so no comment. Fitness is gained during recovery and sleep. Do not stress yourself when you are supposed to be rebuilding. You need to fully recover after. Take that time and sleep more. Be sure you have the recovery nutrition too <> "fuel". You might want to add weight training for strength. It is an efficient way to go. Then chill a bit on the commute and allow full recovery. You may gain a bit of lean mass.

Abe_Froman

OK, next question. I've been trying to give myself 1 day a week completely off the bike. Would just taking it easy on the 15 mile roundtrip commute qualify as an off/active recovery/whatever, or would it still delay recovery?

Excuse the ignorance. I've always been in fairly decent shape, and take health/nutrition seriously...but not to the point of worrying about 'recovery.'

superdex

you want to train for a successful CX season now, I'd say just ride a bunch from now until May, then work in structured workouts for threshold (over/unders) and lthr --like sweet spot training, and skills work. Seriously -- if you're pumping a bunch of HIIT now, you're going to hate yourself in April.

If you want to throw in a wild card, do some crits in the Spring. Nothing like gasping for air, legs screaming and heart exploding as you sprint out of every corner just to hang on to the group....

Joe Friel's Training Bible is aptly named

Abe_Froman

Thanks! Just reserved a copy of it at the library

Though sadly, I think my days of considering crits are behind me. I decided on cyclocross last year because it seemed a bit safer. Going 30mph into a big pileup on asphalt in a cat5 crit doesn't sound like my cup of tea, at my age, with a daughter and sole income earner right now...

12strings

Recovery time is based on the stress to the body, which is affected alot by how fit you are to start with. Lots of stress, ie, I intense effort for a longer period, needs longer recovery.

For example, for me, I could do 15-20 pushups every day and not need to take any rest days. I could probably do that indefinitely. However, If I did 100 pushups in a row, even if I did 4 sets of 25, I would need a few days off to recover.

Really serious weight lifters will work a muscle group only once or twice a week to allow good recovery. But that's when they are working that group to exhaustion.

Abe_Froman

Got it. OK, I'm just gonna wing it then lol. I did a 55 minute HIIT session on Sunday at just about max effort. Felt pretty strong still on Mondays commute...so I'm not going to sweat worrying about burnout/no recovery/etc, other than making sure I take a day off (at least..) a week, and slowing down on commutes if I'm not fully fresh that day. For now...

Maybe a bad move...but what do I know

Doge

Of course - it depends.

I don't want to get too deep into Internet coaching. You might consider an on-line coach.
15 min is not a lot, you can do more. A coach would take your total time and give you some ratios of training. The point was not too intense and then hammer it to work the next day. Without looking it up (you can) there is a pyramid ratio found to be most effective.
I'm new to cross, not new to cycling training, so my assumptions are they are similar. Cross, like crits are 30-60 min events - usually, so the ratios of HI training of any type to endurance/base is less than a road racer. You didn't tell us your total time/week you have for training. But the HI stuff should be a fraction of the longer base stuff.



Roughly...
Nutrition is how you eat - normally.
Fuel - how you eat for the event (training or competition).
Recovery - how you eat to maximize benefit of your training. Depending on how intense, supplements are often used from protein powder to vitamins.
For example, a high intensity routine that tears down muscle (weights), typically gets higher protein post workout.
Some trainers prescribe immediate high carb, then protein later.

Abe_Froman

Thanks.

Well I've been on the bike ~8-11 hrs a week for what I would call base/endurance training (over the summer a couple hrs of that was fast-ish group rides..not sure if that is training or just endurance..). That is falling to ~7.5 hrs now with the weather (just commuting time now).

I've got time to add in say, up to 3hrs of interval training, though my plan right now is to do 3 30 minute sessions a week, and go from there.

radripperaj

the Time Crunched Cyclist book sounds perfect for what you are wanting to do. It has several different training plans including ones specifically for cx or commuters. and it requres as little as 6 hours a week total riding time and that can include your commute. I did it and in two years I went from finishing mid to back of the pack in cat 5 to going to cat 3 and I won the SC state championship in cat3 this year. All I used was the cx training plan in that book. Im not saying that can happen for anyone but it will give you some improvement for sure.

Doge

That is a good total time. 3hrs/8hrs of HI any-kind of training is by every training schedule I've seen too much.
The suggestions to buy the book are good ones.

redlude97

It is hard to do but if you plan correctly you can use your commute for training. I did it last season. fasted slow pace in the mornings to train fat adaption, hard intervals in the evening, 2-3x/week. Ride extremely easy inbetween for rest days. Ride long on weekends. May not be optimal but it can still result in gains.

Abe_Froman

Yup, I was doing something similar over the summer/fall.

In the winter though, in the dark, 15F with ski goggles and 2 balaclavas...I'm just trying to keep getting the miles in

Jakedatc

I found today that the WBR 3 lap Hilly race on Zwift is a pretty good 40min CX simulator except no turns and downhills to breathe owwww

my race last weekend was another unsanctioned one and it had a few dicey downhills that tested peoples bike handling and nerve. Got even more spicy for my GF's race once a few inches of snow came down to make it slippery.

Also showed what a bit bit of skill and a whole boat load of power can do.. my friends first real race(just a few practice races).. finished 16th/75.. being a pro triathlete with watts for days helps apparently.

chas58

Abe,

I agree with ya, HIIT is critical. It is a good way to bump up your performance and power, and to help you recover when you go over your lactate threshold. I tend to be right at my threshold for all of a race, while going over it when I’m doing a hill climb or a run up. Then I want to recover as quickly as possible so I can keep riding at threshold.

As for winter training – I’m kind of lucky – we just built an indoor velodrome in Detroit. I can sit and ride at threshold for an hour and/or do lots of HIIT training (which is mostly what we do for track training). I know I’ve done a good HIIT when I feel like throwing up… LOL. My garmin said I needed 45 hours of recovery after last night. Usually it just tells me 12 hours.

As for recovery, I’ve been using strava’s freshness and fitness. Its interesting to monitor my fitness, and how workouts impact my fatigue and my form. Certainly before a race I want that fatigue number to be below my fitness number (giving me a positive form). That Strava functionality requires premium.

Taking it easy on a commute is classified as a “recovery ride.” Ultimately it depends on how you feel. Sometimes I use an e-bike for commuting as my recovery ride (keeping my heart rate in a comfortable strong endurance zone). When commuting, I like to do my intervals in the morning when I am fresh and feeling stronger.

My fast group rides (~cat 3) are almost like mini races. Endurance is when I keep my heart rate in an endurance zone. Race training is when I am poping it over my threshold heart rate (or maybe just keeping it right at threshold).