Disc brakes in road racing
01-08-16, 11:13 PM
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01-09-16, 01:00 AM
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About a year ago I mentioned a cornering technique of slowing in the corner to then create a gap because everyone else had to slow or brake and then the rider could get a gap to sprint.
It was considered dangerous by most.
Wouldn't the result be the same disc riders mixed with rim riders if all the claims are correct ?
It was considered dangerous by most.
Wouldn't the result be the same disc riders mixed with rim riders if all the claims are correct ?
01-09-16, 09:39 AM
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01-09-16, 11:09 AM
#80
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About a year ago I mentioned a cornering technique of slowing in the corner to then create a gap because everyone else had to slow or brake and then the rider could get a gap to sprint.
It was considered dangerous by most.
Wouldn't the result be the same disc riders mixed with rim riders if all the claims are correct ?
It was considered dangerous by most.
Wouldn't the result be the same disc riders mixed with rim riders if all the claims are correct ?
disc brakes have better stopping power, but they also have better modulation. as mentioned, rim brakes have less modulation, hence the reason why I think people perceive them to be easy to lock up. I don't think it will contribute to the problem. I think disc brakes will help.
Last edited by spectastic; 01-09-16 at 11:21 AM.
01-09-16, 11:20 AM
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About a year ago I mentioned a cornering technique of slowing in the corner to then create a gap because everyone else had to slow or brake and then the rider could get a gap to sprint.
It was considered dangerous by most.
Wouldn't the result be the same disc riders mixed with rim riders if all the claims are correct ?
It was considered dangerous by most.
Wouldn't the result be the same disc riders mixed with rim riders if all the claims are correct ?
Increased modulation, particularly when wet, has nothing to do with what I *think* you are talking about.
01-09-16, 11:40 AM
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Will Joe, slow more than Mike?
If not - what is the problem with rim brakes?
If so - well, is that just racing?
If riders can be trusted to modulate their brakes so those behind them can stop, I wish they'd allow the braked fixies on the track, it would be much easier than getting another bike or removing the brake.
01-09-16, 11:41 AM
#83
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In this thread. The claim in this thread that rims, particularly in wet don't stop as well. So in a rainy wet day Joe with his discs is slowing to approach a corner with rim brake Mike behind.
Will Joe, slow more than Mike?
If not - what is the problem with rim brakes?
If so - well, if that just racing?
If riders can be trusted to modulate their brakes so those behind them can stop, I wish they'd allow the braked fixies on the track, it would be much easier than getting another bike or removing the brake.
Will Joe, slow more than Mike?
If not - what is the problem with rim brakes?
If so - well, if that just racing?
If riders can be trusted to modulate their brakes so those behind them can stop, I wish they'd allow the braked fixies on the track, it would be much easier than getting another bike or removing the brake.
01-09-16, 11:47 AM
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Tracks (StubHub/ADT center Carson) does not allow brakes on the track. Reason they state is this way noone will brake and cause someone without brakes behind to collide with them. They do not trust a rider to simply say they will not use their brakes. They are just not allowed.
In a race...If discs do/can stop better in wet, and there is a rain (wet rims where discs stop better). How will we keep those without discs from colliding into the bikes with stronger brakes?
If disc do not stop better in wet - moot point.
In a race...If discs do/can stop better in wet, and there is a rain (wet rims where discs stop better). How will we keep those without discs from colliding into the bikes with stronger brakes?
If disc do not stop better in wet - moot point.
01-09-16, 11:59 AM
#85
out walking the earth
no velodrome anywhere actually
does not allow brakes on the track. Reason they state is this way noone will brake and cause someone without brakes behind to collide with them. They do not trust a rider to simply say they will not use their brakes. They are just not allowed.
correct. have you ever ridden a track bike? they wouldn't be advantageous.
In a race...If discs do/can stop better in wet, and there is a rain (wet rims where discs stop better). How will we keep those without discs from colliding into the bikes with stronger brakes?
If disc do not stop better in wet - moot point.
they're still called races on a velodrome.
the crashing into one another is one of the concerns. in reality, given good brakes vs bad brakes, carbon vs. aluminum, cork vs rubber... you're already dealing with wide ranges of stopping problem.
NONETHELESS
a wide variety of braking abilities does not justify intentional brake checking as a strategy
more over you seem to be trolling, repeatedly resurrecting dead and contentious (sometimes closed) topics. I'd caution you to tread carefully.
does not allow brakes on the track. Reason they state is this way noone will brake and cause someone without brakes behind to collide with them. They do not trust a rider to simply say they will not use their brakes. They are just not allowed.
In a race...If discs do/can stop better in wet, and there is a rain (wet rims where discs stop better). How will we keep those without discs from colliding into the bikes with stronger brakes?
If disc do not stop better in wet - moot point.
the crashing into one another is one of the concerns. in reality, given good brakes vs bad brakes, carbon vs. aluminum, cork vs rubber... you're already dealing with wide ranges of stopping problem.
NONETHELESS
a wide variety of braking abilities does not justify intentional brake checking as a strategy
more over you seem to be trolling, repeatedly resurrecting dead and contentious (sometimes closed) topics. I'd caution you to tread carefully.
Last edited by gsteinb; 01-09-16 at 12:18 PM.
01-09-16, 01:03 PM
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I find it quite humorous when Road Bicyclists talk about speed, cornering, and braking.
Road Bicyclist really knows nothing about cornering and braking at speed. Road Bikes are relatively slow, and they are not really meant to corner at rail, I mean how could you rail when tires are only 23, 25, or 28mm???
You can't really "late brake" with bicycles like you can with motorcycles. What we consider "late braking" for bicycles, is early braking for motorcycles. For motorcycles, real late braking is used only for passing, and it makes you slower (lap wise), because you tend to overshoot the turn and get out of position from the ideal line, so you come on the gas later.
Road Bicyclist really knows nothing about cornering and braking at speed. Road Bikes are relatively slow, and they are not really meant to corner at rail, I mean how could you rail when tires are only 23, 25, or 28mm???
You can't really "late brake" with bicycles like you can with motorcycles. What we consider "late braking" for bicycles, is early braking for motorcycles. For motorcycles, real late braking is used only for passing, and it makes you slower (lap wise), because you tend to overshoot the turn and get out of position from the ideal line, so you come on the gas later.
01-09-16, 01:06 PM
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01-09-16, 01:36 PM
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I find it quite humorous when Road Bicyclists talk about speed, cornering, and braking.
Road Bicyclist really knows nothing about cornering and braking at speed. Road Bikes are relatively slow, and they are not really meant to corner at rail, I mean how could you rail when tires are only 23, 25, or 28mm???
You can't really "late brake" with bicycles like you can with motorcycles. What we consider "late braking" for bicycles, is early braking for motorcycles. For motorcycles, real late braking is used only for passing, and it makes you slower (lap wise), because you tend to overshoot the turn and get out of position from the ideal line, so you come on the gas later.
Road Bicyclist really knows nothing about cornering and braking at speed. Road Bikes are relatively slow, and they are not really meant to corner at rail, I mean how could you rail when tires are only 23, 25, or 28mm???
You can't really "late brake" with bicycles like you can with motorcycles. What we consider "late braking" for bicycles, is early braking for motorcycles. For motorcycles, real late braking is used only for passing, and it makes you slower (lap wise), because you tend to overshoot the turn and get out of position from the ideal line, so you come on the gas later.
01-09-16, 01:56 PM
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01-09-16, 01:57 PM
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Man...wish I had caught this back on page 1.
Doesn't matter what anyone thinks - they are here and won't be going anywhere. This is EXACTLY like the transition in cross. I was able to point out how I called that it would all be commonplace in a few years back in the cyclocross magazine interview I did: In The Saddle With Rob Curtis, PSIMET Wheel-Builder - Cyclocross Magazine - Cyclocross News, Races, Bikes, Photos, Videos
Personally I have been charged with building up road disc race wheels for at least 1 team for this season. It's done guys.
In the end it won't change much really it's kind of no different than the slight change in tactics we experienced with integrated shift levers vs downtube shifters. The ability to shift more often and more subtly changed racing a small amount but we all adjusted. Braking with disc will be the same.
As for the brakes on the track...yeah...that would be every velodrome everywhere and thank god they do. Otherwise we'd have piles of hipster messengers grabbing handfuls of brakes when they slide up on someone going into turn 3 at Northbrook and the carnage would be stunning. Kind of the same concept as speeding up on an on-ramp. Helluva lot easier to make small movements when we are all at relatively the same speed in reference to each other.
Fact is there are stunning wrecks when people can't brake now and there will be stunning wrecks when people can brake better. Roadies be hitting the deck....always. People will point at disc int he short term but in the long term it won't make the tiniest difference.
Doesn't matter what anyone thinks - they are here and won't be going anywhere. This is EXACTLY like the transition in cross. I was able to point out how I called that it would all be commonplace in a few years back in the cyclocross magazine interview I did: In The Saddle With Rob Curtis, PSIMET Wheel-Builder - Cyclocross Magazine - Cyclocross News, Races, Bikes, Photos, Videos
Personally I have been charged with building up road disc race wheels for at least 1 team for this season. It's done guys.
In the end it won't change much really it's kind of no different than the slight change in tactics we experienced with integrated shift levers vs downtube shifters. The ability to shift more often and more subtly changed racing a small amount but we all adjusted. Braking with disc will be the same.
As for the brakes on the track...yeah...that would be every velodrome everywhere and thank god they do. Otherwise we'd have piles of hipster messengers grabbing handfuls of brakes when they slide up on someone going into turn 3 at Northbrook and the carnage would be stunning. Kind of the same concept as speeding up on an on-ramp. Helluva lot easier to make small movements when we are all at relatively the same speed in reference to each other.
Fact is there are stunning wrecks when people can't brake now and there will be stunning wrecks when people can brake better. Roadies be hitting the deck....always. People will point at disc int he short term but in the long term it won't make the tiniest difference.
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01-09-16, 02:04 PM
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I remember giving a brand new wheel setup and tire to a great crit dog kid one year down in a super tight crit in Champaign. He won the 1/2/3 race impressively and ended up getting an few invites to Pro NCC races that year on his way to racing pro the following season. He handed the wheels back to me after the race telling me how much he loved how he could stick everything and felt like he put 10-20 feet on those following him at every corner just because of the speed he was carrying. I looked at the tires and the hot patch was completely gone. In 1 race. he spent the majority of that race on the sidewalls.
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01-09-16, 02:10 PM
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No it's not. Crit bikes on hella stiff wheels and tubulars can rail corners at speeds that would make most so queasy they'd prefer to sit down. Being not aware of that fact calls directly into question with others whether or not you've ever actually been there so his question is valid.
I remember giving a brand new wheel setup and tire to a great crit dog kid one year down in a super tight crit in Champaign. He won the 1/2/3 race impressively and ended up getting an few invites to Pro NCC races that year on his way to racing pro the following season. He handed the wheels back to me after the race telling me how much he loved how he could stick everything and felt like he put 10-20 feet on those following him at every corner just because of the speed he was carrying. I looked at the tires and the hot patch was completely gone. In 1 race. he spent the majority of that race on the sidewalls.
I remember giving a brand new wheel setup and tire to a great crit dog kid one year down in a super tight crit in Champaign. He won the 1/2/3 race impressively and ended up getting an few invites to Pro NCC races that year on his way to racing pro the following season. He handed the wheels back to me after the race telling me how much he loved how he could stick everything and felt like he put 10-20 feet on those following him at every corner just because of the speed he was carrying. I looked at the tires and the hot patch was completely gone. In 1 race. he spent the majority of that race on the sidewalls.
fast and "railing" is relative. just because you can corner faster than a snail does not mean it's fast compared to other stuff. I was just saying road bicycles don't really rail. Even if the rider uses all the patch on the sidewalls, he is still relatively upright.
01-09-16, 02:15 PM
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Looks like I will go "farther behind" all your guy's reverse logic.
Look if you want to think Road Bicycles rail and are fast, you are free to do so.
To me, Road Bicycles don't rail! and they are not that fast (no matter how "fast" you are "cornering" or how fast you think you are going)
BOOOOOOOOOM! First place.
Look if you want to think Road Bicycles rail and are fast, you are free to do so.
To me, Road Bicycles don't rail! and they are not that fast (no matter how "fast" you are "cornering" or how fast you think you are going)
BOOOOOOOOOM! First place.
01-09-16, 02:23 PM
#95
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About a year ago I mentioned a cornering technique of slowing in the corner to then create a gap because everyone else had to slow or brake and then the rider could get a gap to sprint.
It was considered dangerous by most.
Wouldn't the result be the same disc riders mixed with rim riders if all the claims are correct ?
It was considered dangerous by most.
Wouldn't the result be the same disc riders mixed with rim riders if all the claims are correct ?
keep that up in a race and someones going to put you into the weeds before you take down half the field
01-09-16, 02:30 PM
#96
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Depending on the road, about 45 -55degrees. Thats good for tires about an inch wide
sportbike is about 65 degrees but who the f cares about motorcycles in this discussion
sportbike is about 65 degrees but who the f cares about motorcycles in this discussion
01-09-16, 02:48 PM
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01-09-16, 04:03 PM
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This argument is not mine. It is one of the reasons there is concern about mixing braking types. I'd rather they just not have road races through mud and then there wouldn't be much of an issue.
01-09-16, 04:10 PM
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correct. have you ever ridden a track bike? they wouldn't be advantageous.
the crashing into one another is one of the concerns. in reality, given good brakes vs bad brakes, carbon vs. aluminum, cork vs rubber... you're already dealing with wide ranges of stopping problem.
the crashing into one another is one of the concerns. in reality, given good brakes vs bad brakes, carbon vs. aluminum, cork vs rubber... you're already dealing with wide ranges of stopping problem.
I think there is more agreement here than you think. The equipment should be so competitors can compete equally. I do not think racing needs the latest equipment, or the best or the lightest and certainly nothing experimental that could introduce new dangers. For those reasons and the support ones, I don't like discs being entered into racing.
I apologize for that.
01-09-16, 05:25 PM
#100
commu*ist spy
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No it's not. Crit bikes on hella stiff wheels and tubulars can rail corners at speeds that would make most so queasy they'd prefer to sit down. Being not aware of that fact calls directly into question with others whether or not you've ever actually been there so his question is valid.
I remember giving a brand new wheel setup and tire to a great crit dog kid one year down in a super tight crit in Champaign. He won the 1/2/3 race impressively and ended up getting an few invites to Pro NCC races that year on his way to racing pro the following season. He handed the wheels back to me after the race telling me how much he loved how he could stick everything and felt like he put 10-20 feet on those following him at every corner just because of the speed he was carrying. I looked at the tires and the hot patch was completely gone. In 1 race. he spent the majority of that race on the sidewalls.
I remember giving a brand new wheel setup and tire to a great crit dog kid one year down in a super tight crit in Champaign. He won the 1/2/3 race impressively and ended up getting an few invites to Pro NCC races that year on his way to racing pro the following season. He handed the wheels back to me after the race telling me how much he loved how he could stick everything and felt like he put 10-20 feet on those following him at every corner just because of the speed he was carrying. I looked at the tires and the hot patch was completely gone. In 1 race. he spent the majority of that race on the sidewalls.
Last edited by spectastic; 01-09-16 at 05:28 PM.
