Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

The Water Cooler, Scuttlebutt, Chit Chat Thread

Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

The Water Cooler, Scuttlebutt, Chit Chat Thread

Old 01-04-20, 08:55 PM
  #4326  
Doge
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,049

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3192 Post(s)
Liked 185 Times in 135 Posts
Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
...
Would be super interesting to pay for some wind tunnel time at some point, just to try things out and get some data. A grand (or so I'm told) is a bit of coin to drop, but it's not like I haven't spent that much on cycling before.
Might do as well on some track rental time - say LA. It costs less, and you are actually riding a bike.
Doge is offline  
Old 01-04-20, 09:52 PM
  #4327  
carpediemracing 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Tariffville, CT
Posts: 15,178

Bikes: Tsunami Bikes

Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 299 Post(s)
Liked 34 Times in 20 Posts
Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
Would be super interesting to pay for some wind tunnel time at some point, just to try things out and get some data. A grand (or so I'm told) is a bit of coin to drop, but it's not like I haven't spent that much on cycling before.
Can you do a Chung method test? I'm perusing Google maps for a suitable bit of road, and waiting for warmer weather. But I'll be doing some tests on myself.

https://anonymous.coward.free.fr/watt...direct-cda.pdf

The test methodology, when done properly, seems quite accurate: Blather 'bout Bikes: Aero Field Testing using the "Chung Method" - How sensitive can it be?
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
carpediemracing is offline  
Likes For carpediemracing:
Old 01-04-20, 11:23 PM
  #4328  
Hermes
Version 3.0
 
Hermes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 12,120

Bikes: Too Many

Mentioned: 294 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 830 Post(s)
Liked 608 Times in 411 Posts
Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
Sometimes I think that I might have a good CdA in my standard road, track and TT positions. Like, some of these guys are monstrously strong from a raw wattage perspective, but I can compete with them in flat/high-speed mass start races and roll a break (or TTT) with some pretty tough guys at high speed.

To put that in perspective I'm only 145 lbs (at race weight) and decently strong, but some of these bigger guys have like 50+ watts on me z1-5. At ~12 years of competitive cycling, you'd think I'd have this figured out by now .

Would be super interesting to pay for some wind tunnel time at some point, just to try things out and get some data. A grand (or so I'm told) is a bit of coin to drop, but it's not like I haven't spent that much on cycling before.
You can do the San Diego wind tunnel, Velo Sports Center ERO aero testing or you and I can go to the SD velodrome and use my aero calculation spread sheet. All we need is accurate speed and power data over a couple of good laps per test and we can calculate CdA for the setup tested. ERO is slicker, more accurate and continuous and you learn a lot and of course the wind tunnel can do yaw angle, smoke and other cool stuff.
Hermes is offline  
Likes For Hermes:
Old 01-05-20, 09:46 AM
  #4329  
TheKillerPenguin
Nonsense
 
TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vagabond
Posts: 13,736

Bikes: Affirmative

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 808 Post(s)
Liked 252 Times in 112 Posts
Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
Can you do a Chung method test? I'm perusing Google maps for a suitable bit of road, and waiting for warmer weather. But I'll be doing some tests on myself.

https://anonymous.coward.free.fr/watt...direct-cda.pdf

The test methodology, when done properly, seems quite accurate: Blather 'bout Bikes: Aero Field Testing using the "Chung Method" - How sensitive can it be?
Have a teammate that swears by the Chung method, and he is in fact absurdly aero.
TheKillerPenguin is offline  
Likes For TheKillerPenguin:
Old 01-05-20, 10:06 AM
  #4330  
echappist
fuggitivo solitario
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 9,107
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 9 Posts
Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
You can do the San Diego wind tunnel, Velo Sports Center ERO aero testing or you and I can go to the SD velodrome and use my aero calculation spread sheet. All we need is accurate speed and power data over a couple of good laps per test and we can calculate CdA for the setup tested. ERO is slicker, more accurate and continuous and you learn a lot and of course the wind tunnel can do yaw angle, smoke and other cool stuff.
+1 to this

i'd love to be able to waltz down to a velodrome located 2 hours away, pay $600, and have my zero-yaw CdA determined

given that a good bike fit cost ~$300 these days, $600 doesn't seem all that ridiculous
echappist is offline  
Likes For echappist:
Old 01-05-20, 10:15 AM
  #4331  
Hermes
Version 3.0
 
Hermes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 12,120

Bikes: Too Many

Mentioned: 294 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 830 Post(s)
Liked 608 Times in 411 Posts
Originally Posted by echappist View Post
+1 to this

i'd love to be able to waltz down to a velodrome located 2 hours away, pay $600, and have my zero-yaw CdA determined

given that a good bike fit cost ~$300 these days, $600 doesn't seem all that ridiculous
ERO offers a lot of value. You start with a detailed Retuil fit in the studio and then get on the track to refine the studio fit and test equipment. The only problem with ERO is that they have very limited equipment availability. So the customer has to bring whatever he/she wants to test. So ERO may have a helmet or two and a couple of stems. When I did my testing, a couple of racing friends provided some equipment that I could try and I brought my own skin suits.

The other aspect of using ERO is that they have a huge data base of tests from international and pro teams. So they have a pretty good idea of what works and is fast. It is a matter of confirming it on individual riders.
Hermes is offline  
Old 01-08-20, 10:27 AM
  #4332  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,986
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1575 Post(s)
Liked 309 Times in 213 Posts
I have to enter a time card every week at work. It's kind of stupid, because I just put down 8 hours every day, but processes.

Anyway, if my manager does not approve my time card, the system emails Me about it. Not my manager. So, I then have to forward the email to him to ask him to approve the time card.
topflightpro is offline  
Old 01-08-20, 10:51 AM
  #4333  
Cypress 
Globo Gym lifetime member
 
Cypress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 5,199

Bikes: Fast ones

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 407 Post(s)
Liked 610 Times in 305 Posts
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I have to enter a time card every week at work. It's kind of stupid, because I just put down 8 hours every day, but processes.

Anyway, if my manager does not approve my time card, the system emails Me about it. Not my manager. So, I then have to forward the email to him to ask him to approve the time card.
I also have to do the time card thing. I have to list which projects I've been working on daily (up to 15 per day), even if it's a job we don't yet have a contract for or we've already invoiced (dead for accounting purposes). I usually just BS it. Accounting and everyone else knows I BS it and they are totally ok with it...but yet I still have to do it. A yearly salary would be a nice way to get rid of the paperwork, but I'd end up getting a pay cut in the long run.
__________________
Cypress is offline  
Old 01-10-20, 12:22 AM
  #4334  
hack
Senior Member
 
hack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Folsom, CA
Posts: 3,885
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 417 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I have to enter a time card every week at work. It's kind of stupid, because I just put down 8 hours every day, but processes.

Anyway, if my manager does not approve my time card, the system emails Me about it. Not my manager. So, I then have to forward the email to him to ask him to approve the time card.
Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
I also have to do the time card thing. I have to list which projects I've been working on daily (up to 15 per day), even if it's a job we don't yet have a contract for or we've already invoiced (dead for accounting purposes). I usually just BS it. Accounting and everyone else knows I BS it and they are totally ok with it...but yet I still have to do it. A yearly salary would be a nice way to get rid of the paperwork, but I'd end up getting a pay cut in the long run.
When I worked in private sector, I did weekly time sheets accounting for time down to the 0.1 hour. It was terrible.

I've since moved into public work and the timesheet process is a breeze, but obnoxious. I just enter 8 hours a day across a single billing code, yay. The pain is the system is about 20 years out of date and relies on too many eyes in the review process.
hack is offline  
Old 01-10-20, 06:33 AM
  #4335  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,986
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1575 Post(s)
Liked 309 Times in 213 Posts
I don't mind entering my time. In my last two jobs, I was on government contracts, so I had to account for time spent on any contract up to .1 hours, like hack. There were months when I had 30 different charge codes I was managing.

I just think it's odd that our system sends ME the notification when my manager has not yet approved my card. It doesn't send my manager, who is the responsible party here, the notice. Oracle has really made an overly complicated and not at all user friendly system.
topflightpro is offline  
Old 01-10-20, 07:09 AM
  #4336  
himespau 
Senior Member
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 11,570
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2163 Post(s)
Liked 707 Times in 414 Posts
I used to hate having to put things out to the decimal like that. Because it often took me more than 6 minutes to figure out all my time distributions. But was there a code for figuring out how to bill my time? Nope, that had to be done on my time.
himespau is offline  
Old 01-10-20, 08:55 AM
  #4337  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,949

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 896 Post(s)
Liked 614 Times in 410 Posts
The Chung stuff works GREAT for comparing A to B. Not for determining the absolute values of A and B.

So, you can determine that helmet A is better than B by a CdA of .005. But you can't say your CdA with helmet A is .230 and with B it is .235.

Even adding in known live sensor wind vectors I don't think it is good enough to determine an absolute. Close, but close counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

I'm going to kick tires locally among some triathletes with money to see if anyone wants to get together and do arena laps on the Chung method and swap helmets and swap equipment you're interested in buying someday.

I need to setup my Arduino Uno to a $25 pitot sensor and log the wind on test rides to get my Chung numbers even more reliable for equipment choices.

And buy a set of rollers to get good known CRR values to plug into the Chung models.
burnthesheep is offline  
Old 01-10-20, 09:08 AM
  #4338  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,986
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1575 Post(s)
Liked 309 Times in 213 Posts
Originally Posted by himespau View Post
I used to hate having to put things out to the decimal like that. Because it often took me more than 6 minutes to figure out all my time distributions. But was there a code for figuring out how to bill my time? Nope, that had to be done on my time.
We had that at my last job. I never used it though. I just included time card time under my overhead code.
topflightpro is offline  
Likes For topflightpro:
Old 01-10-20, 10:31 AM
  #4339  
Flatballer
No matches
 
Flatballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 11,424

Bikes: two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1171 Post(s)
Liked 140 Times in 90 Posts
The designers and engineers who work for me often have just one code per day, or even per week.

Meanwhile, I have 10 codes a day, down to the quarter hour (which I totally do by feel, often at the end of the week) in a terrible home brew time system. It's a mess.
Flatballer is offline  
Likes For Flatballer:
Old 01-10-20, 12:33 PM
  #4340  
cmh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,735
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked 107 Times in 62 Posts
I've been in these time card reporting situations on both sides. The information is very valuable to managers especially if clients need to be billed for appropriate amounts of time spent on work or just to understand what projects are consuming the most time. But managers are never able to understand the overhead required, or that the data they get is often a rough guess. (Edit: I should say 'managers are sometimes unable to ...' rather than never able'. Don't want to be unfair to managers...)

Last edited by cmh; 01-10-20 at 03:35 PM.
cmh is offline  
Old 01-10-20, 02:37 PM
  #4341  
caloso
Senior Member
 
caloso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 39,204

Bikes: Ridley Excalibur, Gazelle Champion Mondial, On-One Pompino, Specialized Rock Hopper

Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2310 Post(s)
Liked 1,088 Times in 574 Posts
Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
We had that at my last job. I never used it though. I just included time card time under my overhead code.
We have that. I never used it until I became a supervisor and had to spend actual time dealing with other people's timesheets.
caloso is offline  
Old 01-12-20, 06:52 PM
  #4342  
Enthalpic
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,482
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 173 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 14 Posts
Originally Posted by cmh View Post
I've been in these time card reporting situations on both sides. The information is very valuable to managers especially if clients need to be billed for appropriate amounts of time spent on work or just to understand what projects are consuming the most time. But managers are never able to understand the overhead required, or that the data they get is often a rough guess. (Edit: I should say 'managers are sometimes unable to ...' rather than never able'. Don't want to be unfair to managers...)
I got annoyed at a manager who was asking me to do time reports when I knew full well he wasn't even looking at them. So I just stopped submitting them. Took him almost a full year before he noticed, at which time he told the rest of the staff to stop doing them.
Enthalpic is offline  
Old 01-12-20, 09:27 PM
  #4343  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 14,370
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1486 Post(s)
Liked 948 Times in 578 Posts
Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
I got annoyed at a manager who was asking me to do time reports when I knew full well he wasn't even looking at them. So I just stopped submitting them. Took him almost a full year before he noticed, at which time he told the rest of the staff to stop doing them.
At the car dealer we were supposed to clock in and out daily, in and out for lunch, and in and out on every repair order for every job we did, which could be 20 jobs per day. I stopped doing it for 10 YEARS! I didn't use the clock for 10 years. Finally, they cracked down and I tried to do it.
big john is offline  
Likes For big john:
Old 01-13-20, 02:15 PM
  #4344  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,949

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 896 Post(s)
Liked 614 Times in 410 Posts
Strava doesn't matter.

But, freaking check for HRM or power data before flagging "done in car". That's just lazy. If a segment has your lightning bolt for real power AND you peg'd your HR at the 170's to 180's for it.........it's real.

But, conspiracy theory...........it's a local rival team's member. Duh dun dun.........mystery!
burnthesheep is offline  
Likes For burnthesheep:
Old 01-13-20, 03:07 PM
  #4345  
cmh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,735
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked 107 Times in 62 Posts
Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
I got annoyed at a manager who was asking me to do time reports when I knew full well he wasn't even looking at them. So I just stopped submitting them. Took him almost a full year before he noticed, at which time he told the rest of the staff to stop doing them.
We'll I guess the info wasn't valuable to your manager if he didn't notice for a year. That's just plain bad management. It was valuable in the organization I was in that required it. It was used to bill customers, as well as to estimate the time it would take to complete new projects. I definitely get the pain of everyone that needs to turn in time cards.
cmh is offline  
Old 01-13-20, 04:47 PM
  #4346  
Flatballer
No matches
 
Flatballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 11,424

Bikes: two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1171 Post(s)
Liked 140 Times in 90 Posts
Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Strava doesn't matter.

But, freaking check for HRM or power data before flagging "done in car". That's just lazy. If a segment has your lightning bolt for real power AND you peg'd your HR at the 170's to 180's for it.........it's real.

But, conspiracy theory...........it's a local rival team's member. Duh dun dun.........mystery!
I mean, that can all be faked (any Strava data can be relatively easily manipulated by anyone who cares to do it).

I assume you know the segment was legit, but you can't really know for sure unless you were there and have your own data.
Flatballer is offline  
Old 01-13-20, 05:50 PM
  #4347  
Enthalpic
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,482
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 173 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 14 Posts
Originally Posted by cmh View Post
We'll I guess the info wasn't valuable to your manager if he didn't notice for a year. That's just plain bad management. It was valuable in the organization I was in that required it. It was used to bill customers, as well as to estimate the time it would take to complete new projects. I definitely get the pain of everyone that needs to turn in time cards.
Yes, very poor management. In fairness, we rarely billed our clients as they were almost always internal, even the rare external clients weren't billed based on time (flat rate chemical analysis).
Enthalpic is offline  
Old 01-13-20, 06:40 PM
  #4348  
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 14,370
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1486 Post(s)
Liked 948 Times in 578 Posts
I was invited to join a Facebook group of riders who raced before 1980. They know I didn't race but I guess I'm guilty by association.
They have cool pictures like this one from Wembley in 1980.


Last edited by big john; 01-13-20 at 10:08 PM.
big john is offline  
Likes For big john:
Old 01-13-20, 11:41 PM
  #4349  
Doge
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,049

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3192 Post(s)
Liked 185 Times in 135 Posts
Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
I mean, that can all be faked (any Strava data can be relatively easily manipulated by anyone who cares to do it).

I assume you know the segment was legit, but you can't really know for sure unless you were there and have your own data.
And that is different than road racing how?
Doge is offline  
Old 01-15-20, 10:46 AM
  #4350  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,078
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 728 Post(s)
Liked 324 Times in 150 Posts
Is this a question of Cartesian certitude and the unreliability of sense experience?
gsteinb is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.