Enthalpic

That's the rule around here. Equal pay for top spots but much less depth for the smaller fields.

grolby

Christ. I don't have the patience for this nonsense. Stop spouting your opinions and listen to what the athletes in question are saying they need to feel welcomed and respected. You're just flat wrong about this. STOP TALKING AND LISTEN.

Again. Shut up. The normalized Expected Value of the prize purse doesn't effing matter. This is maybe the most garbage take I've ever heard on this subject. The statistical distribution of prizes isn't relevant to the question. The question is: what is winning a bike race worth? Is a woman's win worth less than a man's? The answer, if you give 1/10th of a crap about making women feel that they are valued within the sport (and there are people who don't give 1/10th of a crap, but they are jerks), IS OF EFFING COURSE IT ISN'T.

You need to listen. I am so sick of hearing my friends tell me how beaten down and defeated they feel when they go to bike races or talk about this and have folks like you running their mouths about how it's totally fair to pay them less because of a statistical distribution of prizes according to expected placement. This isn't about that. It's about respect. And when you don't listen to what they're asking for, you're not being respectful.

globecanvas

Speaking of which ... maybe tone down the anger a bit?

grolby

You have choices, too.

So do we. Stop making excuses. Do the right thing. Find the money somewhere else. This is non-responsive.[/quote]

Have you considered asking them? Have you considered asking the 1/2/3 women who were 4's at one time? Maybe they would have better suggestions than me.

grolby

Sorry. I'm still salty about my friends being effectively given the middle finger on the start line. I think some anger is justified. This isn't an abstract issue. This causes people real emotional pain because they love this sport and they get the same crap over and over from guys who want to give their opinions on why there aren't that many women racing and won't listen to what's being asked of them. So, uh, I apologize, I guess?

globecanvas

Nobody here disrespected your friends. You can communicate your strong feelings on the issue without telling other people to shut up.

I'm not trying to extend the conflict, but honestly I don't even think my kids would try that one.


[edit] my person agenda is not to get you to apologize, it's just to de-escalate.

globecanvas

Speaking of changing the subject, who's in for Harlem June 18? White Plains left me hankering for more fast crit action and also made me realize that a lot of the early-season area crits are not really crits. Branchbrook, Lime Rock, and Augusta are basically circuit races, and Orchard Beach is a track race. I want more fast corners!

grolby

Fair.

If I can leave it at one point: it's not about money. It's about respect. My friend Lydia has done the work to survey a majority of the women actively racing in New England to ask them some questions about what they value most, and what would make them feel more welcome. So we have actual quantitative survey data that has been presented to New England promoters at the annual race promoter summit.

Women racers in New England don't want a break on entry fees.

They don't want to be reached out to to come to races - they know about the races.

They don't want a less competitive environment.

They want to receive the same recognition for their successes as their male peers. The dollar amount doesn't matter. What matters is that it isn't less than what the men get.

I'm sure promoters are genuinely surprised that their development efforts to get more 4/5 women racing by offering a break on entry fees don't do much, but they shouldn't be. Because money isn't an obstacle, but being disrespected is. If you can't bring yourself to make the small gesture of equalizing pay-outs at your race, chances are you're sending signals of disrespect in other ways as well. Comstock is a special case because he went out of his way to be deliberately disrespectful. Most people don't. But you have to start listening when people tell you you are being disrespectful, and take steps to stop doing it.

The thing is, this isn't actually hard to do. This is part of why I got mad. We've heard the same thing over and over again, about how hard it is. But it's not. Here's how you do it: count up the full prize purse you were paying out before. Divide it in half. Pay out half to the women, and half to the men. The assumption seems to be that this will crush turnout among the men. It won't.

That's the thing. In amateur bike race promotion, doing the right thing is easy. Show everyone respect, and you can do it without changing your bottom line. Maybe your bottom line is red, but it won't be because you did the right thing.

That's all.

mike868y

come to greenfield! it's similar to white plains in that it's a short, fast 4 corner course. on the surface not particularly technical but like WP hitting the corners at speed definitely takes skill.

globecanvas

That's the same day as Harlem! Which is also a very fast 4 corner crit.

mike868y

yeah but you don't have to worry about driving into the city!

(also, cue earlier discussion on more regional calendar coordination...would be nice if one of these races were on saturday...)

nycphotography

wtf yo.

My opinions are invalid because I don't agree with you, therefore you have decided that I'm not respectful? Meanwhile you pitch a fit like a child and do everything but call me names? Srsly?

Grow the eff up and learn talk to people with respect. You have to deserve respect in order to get respect.

But try to paint me as guilty of some laundry list of sins that exist only in the fantasy land in your own head because I don't agree with you? Eff that and eff you. I got not time for that nonsense. You aren't looking to find a solution. You're looking to make everyone bow down and accept your way. Or the highway. Yeah well you can bully some people with that crap, but if that's your game, then I don't really much care what you think, and I'm not about to play along. Who died and made you god of equality in bike racing?

I'm pretty sure I have a life to attend to, and racing bicycles is a hobby, yes *gasp* a hobby, that I pay to participate in. PAY. Yup. Pretty much like everyone else in the US. Yup.

My solution is really simple: don't have cash prizes in amateur sports.

Take that money and produce two events instead of one. Now I have more races I can try to fit in around, oh, I dunno, normal ish like having a job and a family and a life, just like everyone else. I know you don't like my solution because you want money to magically rain from the sky to support women's bike racing when the sad fact is that the exact name number of people care about women's bike racing as cares about men's bike racing.... which is ZERO. Outside of the people lined up in the line, nobody cares. Well except your own family and friends, but they have to care, that's the price you charge for staying family and friends with them. But nobody else gives the first fark. Your first clue? The word AMATEUR.

But I especially love this little irrational gem: "it's not about money, it's about respect". Um yeah. Except your yardstick for respect is measuring dollars, so you are either completely loony delusional, or trolling intentionally. Either way, I got no time or energy for that, so I dunno, I just tune out the irrational histrionic diatribe and go ride my bike.

da fuk.

globecanvas

It would be nice, but really those two races are not quite in the same catchment area. Also, Harlem has been on Father's Day since the beginning of time.

globecanvas

On the @grolby and @nycphotography back and forth: both of you have expressed your views, can you both please leave it there and be big enough to walk away from the personal conflict? I don't want to have to close the northeast racing thread!

mike868y

will you be making the trek out for worcester/longsjo?

globecanvas

If I can convince any teammates or allies to go, then yes.

dz_nuzz

I feel bad I won't be at Greenfield again this year. The SO and I are headed up to a reunion before she needs to take off for India. I will see if I can't drum up some other local peeps to do some crit action.

nycphotography

I wasn't engaged in any back and forth. I merely made the mistake of caring enough about bike racing to think about how it works and maybe what aspects of human nature, politics and athletics are at play. I made one post with my thoughts which somehow unleashed some freakish inner demons.

I didn't think that kind of crap was warranted, and didn't deserve a free pass, so I responded. Once. I can assure you I will not be going back and forth on this.

mike868y

to be fair, your SO should probably be the one who feels bad (kidding, obviously). have fun, hope to see you at some of the later critweek races!

dz_nuzz

And she does! Her constant travel plans means she always misses her / your team's race! I may make an appearance at Fitchburg.

FFJ

An easy fix for the payout gender equity issue would be to do away with payouts completely. Some compelling thoughts on the subject here:

https://www.tobedetermined.cc/journa...mateur-cycling

Ygduf

I didn't read the above but I agree. Racing for money is stupid unless it's next saturday and $10 primes every lap in which case it's fun because it changes the race.

globecanvas

Rockleigh cancelled tonight due to road construction! TKP thanks so much for texting me. My bike was already in the car Was looking forward to getting thrashed by gsteinb.

globecanvas

Wellll here we go again.

Harlem is the day after tomorrow.

Pre-reg: 106 @ $40 = $4240
Prizes: $10500
Permit: $3000*
Police: $5000*
Misc: $3000*

* are semirandom guesses but given these numbers the event is looking at a $15-20k loss. So either there is massive last-day and day-of registration or the event gets cancelled. If it does happen, no way do the prizes stay intact.

AFAICT the promoters have done no promotion. It's an iconic race so maybe they didn't think they had to. There is a 30-40% chance of rain and the course is super painty and generally dangerous, but it's always been a crashy race, they call it the Harlem Skinscraper after all.


Counterpoint: The big NYC area weeknighters, Floyd and Rockleigh, get a hundred racers every night, three nights a week, that's several thousand racers per season. Much lower race costs, no road closures or police. No promotion, almost negative promotion (it's actively difficult to get information about the races). Seems like there would be room for a weekend series following a similar model.

mike868y

Just saying, current pre reg numbers:
Harlem - 107
Greenfield - 232