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Improperly built wheel?

Old 02-08-18, 05:44 PM
  #26  
harshbarj
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
I woudn't go 100% by the placement of the spokes around the valve.

I've read of reports where people had purchased batches of the same brand/model of rims, and some started one direction, and others started the other direction.

If the holes are drilled directionally, then your wheel probably is assembled wrong. If the holes are not drilled directionally, then it wouldn't make a difference.

Post a direct side view of your wheel showing at least the valve and the hub.

It is hard to tell from your photo, but it appears as if the two spokes around the valve cross. That is considered VERY BAD FORM. It isn't a critical error, but it would indicate an amateur wheel builder built up your wheel, which could also indicate that they never checked the drilling of the spoke nipple holes.
They don't cross. The one on the right heads to the right side of the hub and the one to the left goes to the left side of the hub.
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Old 02-08-18, 06:01 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by harshbarj
They don't cross. The one on the right heads to the right side of the hub and the one to the left goes to the left side of the hub.
Yes, right & Left.

But, take a photo.

With the valve at the bottom of the wheel. Then the spoke behind the valve should go to the back (rear) side of the hub. The spoke in front of the valve should go to the front side of the hub.

For low flange hubs, this leaves the spokes around the valve going more or less parallel.

For yours, the spokes around the valve should actually separate just a little.

In theory, this gives maximum access to the valve stem. Still, it doesn't make a big difference, but it is conventional.
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Old 02-08-18, 06:33 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Yes, right & Left.

But, take a photo.

With the valve at the bottom of the wheel. Then the spoke behind the valve should go to the back (rear) side of the hub. The spoke in front of the valve should go to the front side of the hub.

For low flange hubs, this leaves the spokes around the valve going more or less parallel.

For yours, the spokes around the valve should actually separate just a little.

In theory, this gives maximum access to the valve stem. Still, it doesn't make a big difference, but it is conventional.
Guess I am not understanding you here. Here is another picture (the last I can get for several hours till I get home tonight). Again, a little grimy thanks to the snow and slush. But no point in cleaning till the streets dry.

Click for full res.
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Old 02-08-18, 06:39 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by harshbarj
On this rim, the holes are in line with each other. They are not staggered as every other rim I have seen. Just noticed this.
The staggering is minimal on my CR18s. Barely noticeable. But there.
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Old 02-08-18, 06:45 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by harshbarj
Guess I am not understanding you here. Here is another picture (the last I can get for several hours till I get home tonight). Again, a little grimy thanks to the snow and slush. But no point in cleaning till the streets dry.

Click for full res.
Ok, that is normal, I think.

When you get to your bike this evening, imagine what it would be like if the valve was 2 spokes over (either direction) from its current location.

The spokes near the nipples definitely look bent. It is really difficult to imagine the true 3-dimensions in your photos, but part of the issue may also be the hub size. So, with a typical hub, the two spokes around your valve should exit more or less parallel, and those don't.

I suppose that gets back to my first question... as I had skimmed, and seen the issue with bent spokes show up on 20" wheels. Yours, of course, are 700c, but the angles from your hub may create similar issues.
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Old 02-08-18, 06:52 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Ghrumpy
The staggering is minimal on my CR18s. Barely noticeable. But there.
Great picture. I can see the eyelets just barely off-center with respect to those ridges on the rim. With the spoke on the left going to the far side, and the one on the right going to the near side.

Should be a good test for the OP.
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Old 02-08-18, 07:09 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by harshbarj
Guess I am not understanding you here.
Looking at the rim from the hub side -


It really does look like your spokes bend too much coming out of the nipples. And one reason for that could be left hand lacing on a right hand rim... as rare as that is.

But your photo doesn't look like that's your particular issue.

Last edited by DiabloScott; 02-08-18 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 02-08-18, 07:20 PM
  #33  
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The nipple should aim at the hole in the hub where the spoke comes from. Some of your spoke nipples look like they aim at the center of the hub, with the spoke bent to connect with the nipple. Does the tension on the spokes seem ok? Weird.
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Old 02-08-18, 07:24 PM
  #34  
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Can't see much..... but are you missing an eyelet in that first picture?
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Old 02-08-18, 07:36 PM
  #35  
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Oh, another thing. Can you tell the symbol that is stamped on the spoke heads? Closeup photo?

If it is blank, then it is a "generic". I just won't buy generics. I don't know if any brand is better than another, but I'd prefer a brand that has enough pride to label their products.
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Old 02-08-18, 07:42 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Oh, another thing. Can you tell the symbol that is stamped on the spoke heads? Closeup photo?

If it is blank, then it is a "generic". I just won't buy generics. I don't know if any brand is better than another, but I'd prefer a brand that has enough pride to label their products.
Sapim is one of the primo brands, and they are blank on the head. The logo is etched on the shaft of the spoke near the head.
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Old 02-08-18, 08:18 PM
  #37  
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Looks like it's back to the drawing board. Those PATHETIC eyelet rims are trouble waiting to happen anyway. Even worse in cold salty conditions.
I have ZERO failures or worries with my Velocity Dyad rims with SA 3, SA5w, Rohloff and SA dyno drum front with 22,000 miles including a tour with 290 lbs GVW. Black rims would look far better IMO, with silver spokes still. My nips are black. 700c except for the SA 3 which is 584. Make sure it's done 2 cross.
On the SA hubs I have Wheelsmith 2.3/ 2.0 spokes and DT nylock nipples, nothing better IMO, drum brakes also. Costly at first, but not if they never fail. I've gone 46 mph with NO worries.
I love my SA hubs. Just yesterday I took apart the 3 spd and did the oil/ grease lube. It's on a 1973 CCM.

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Old 02-08-18, 08:21 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by DiabloScott
Hahahaha! This is what I'm talking about: What @DiabloScott calls Left Hand I call Right Hand.

So @harshbarj, the name isn't important. The location of the offset is. Call it what you want.
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Old 02-09-18, 02:36 AM
  #39  
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perhaps the fact that the hole offset on the CR-18 is so Minimal is the problem?

an offset so small, that even with the correct spoke direction it is not enough to handle the angle they're making to that large flange hub?
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Old 02-09-18, 11:04 AM
  #40  
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The only time I have seen spokes break at the nipple was when I built a rear wheel for a friend with a Power Tap hub. The hub required more dish and the left side spokes did not have enough tension when I had about 105kg on the DS.
I ended up tensioning the drive side up to 130kg so as to have enough tension on the NDS. No more problems.
My friend is about 225 pounds and a gym rat, so he is very strong.
The spokes are double butted 14 gauge.
I am wondering how much tension you have on the spokes?
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Old 02-09-18, 02:59 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by xenologer
perhaps the fact that the hole offset on the CR-18 is so Minimal is the problem?

an offset so small, that even with the correct spoke direction it is not enough to handle the angle they're making to that large flange hub?
That's part of it, but with a 622/700C rim, there should be plenty of spoke length to mitigate that. I've never broken a spoke on my CR-18s except from overshifting (had a bent hanger, oops) and they are 559/26" so my spokes are probably 10% shorter.

There is something else going on, either with tension or the build process.
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Old 02-09-18, 03:11 PM
  #42  
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As Ghrumpy mentioned, the offset of the spoke eyelets should be barely perceptible. Has the OP double checked his wheel? Perhaps cleaning then checking it?

I would think the dishing would be minimal on the SA IGH hub, so with 36 spokes, it should make for a pretty strong wheel... if only the spokes can be oriented right so there aren't any excess bends.

I've been thinking about what it would take to ream nipple holes to the precise size and angle one needs, specific to one's hub and lacing pattern. It should be something that would be easy enough to calculate, although eyelets and sockets could be a problem not giving excess material to ream.
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Old 02-09-18, 06:12 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
As Ghrumpy mentioned, the offset of the spoke eyelets should be barely perceptible. Has the OP double checked his wheel? Perhaps cleaning then checking it?

I would think the dishing would be minimal on the SA IGH hub, so with 36 spokes, it should make for a pretty strong wheel... if only the spokes can be oriented right so there aren't any excess bends.

I've been thinking about what it would take to ream nipple holes to the precise size and angle one needs, specific to one's hub and lacing pattern. It should be something that would be easy enough to calculate, although eyelets and sockets could be a problem not giving excess material to ream.
I use a 90 degree countersink. Like this one: https://www.mcmaster.com/#27885a45/=1bi1i5h
Chuck it into a drill if you're brave, and go slow with light pressure. For like a half a second. I usually do it by hand. I mark the direction on the rim with a magic marker. Then I just take a tiny bit off with the countersink, especially with eyelets.
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Old 02-09-18, 07:35 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Ghrumpy
I use a 90 degree countersink. Like this one: https://www.mcmaster.com/#27885a45/=1bi1i5h
Chuck it into a drill if you're brave, and go slow with light pressure. For like a half a second. I usually do it by hand. I mark the direction on the rim with a magic marker. Then I just take a tiny bit off with the countersink, especially with eyelets.
Not a bad idea, although I was thinking more of a simple drill bit the diameter of the sides of the nipples.

The nipple head should be somewhat ball and socket shaped, allowing a little variation in direction. Are there ball and socket shaped nipple washers?

For a big hub like the OP's, one could cut out a disc the size of the spoke circle on the hub. Then use a straight edge, and go around to all the holes and mark the direction of each spoke to one or the other tangent on the hub cuton, and R/L on the sidewall. Then later clean with acetone, or let brakes rub it out.

Heck, it might also help with building the wheel later to know where each spoke is supposed to go.
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Old 02-09-18, 08:40 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Not a bad idea, although I was thinking more of a simple drill bit the diameter of the sides of the nipples.
The shoulders of nipples are also 90 degrees, which is why I use that countersink instead of a drill bit (most drills are 118 degrees, which angle would support the nipple less. But it would probably be ok anyway.)

Originally Posted by CliffordK
The nipple head should be somewhat ball and socket shaped, allowing a little variation in direction. Are there ball and socket shaped nipple washers?
Probably used to be ball-seat nipples, way back when. I don't recall having seen any. But I'm sure someone tried it.

Originally Posted by CliffordK
For a big hub like the OP's, one could cut out a disc the size of the spoke circle on the hub. Then use a straight edge, and go around to all the holes and mark the direction of each spoke to one or the other tangent on the hub cuton, and R/L on the sidewall. Then later clean with acetone, or let brakes rub it out.

Heck, it might also help with building the wheel later to know where each spoke is supposed to go.
Rim manufacturers can't make a specific seat angle because rims can built with different lacing patterns, each of which requires a different angle. If you map out your spokes the way you describe, you can improve the line. It's never going to be perfect unless you have some kind of angle jig. But really it doesn't need to be perfect, just better.
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Old 02-09-18, 08:44 PM
  #46  
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Old 02-09-18, 08:46 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by FBOATSB
Well there you have it. Cool.
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Old 02-11-18, 09:57 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by harshbarj
Right now nothing. All breaks have been just with me on the bike.

The LBS I used seemed very against 2.3 spokes. I even asked and he said it was unnecessary, 2.0 would be strong enough (I know this not to be the case in my normal use, even 2.3 is not enough). I normally have places drill out the holes and use 3mm straight gauge spokes. Few seem willing to do this anymore. In the summer I can haul hundreds of pounds.
Your LBS is just being retrogrouchy. Most wheel builders are resistant to triple butted spokes because...well, because. Most people on these forums have the same attitude. I build all of my wheels with them because it doesn’t hurt and it does a help a whole lot. However...

Considering the quality of your build, I wouldn’t take your LBS’s advice on much of anything when it comes to wheel building. Your wheels have been built incorrectly. You currently have a useless rear wheel at the very least. The spokes have all been damaged and your rim may be damaged as well. It’s highly unlikely that the shop will admit it’s error so it may be time to just cut your losses and start over with a different shop or learn to build your own. You can’t do worse.
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Old 02-12-18, 01:23 PM
  #49  
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Brought the bike in to the same LBS as it broke 3 more spokes and the guy at the desk agreed the wheel was improperly built. He even said with as severe as the bends are he could break a spoke just by applying pressure to the spoke. I am just hoping they will eat the cost of it. If not I will ask for a manager as see what can be done, even a discount would be preferable seeing as I am already in it for ~$160.

Originally Posted by cyccommute
Your LBS is just being retrogrouchy. Most wheel builders are resistant to triple butted spokes because...well, because. Most people on these forums have the same attitude. I build all of my wheels with them because it doesn’t hurt and it does a help a whole lot. However...

Considering the quality of your build, I wouldn’t take your LBS’s advice on much of anything when it comes to wheel building. Your wheels have been built incorrectly. You currently have a useless rear wheel at the very least. The spokes have all been damaged and your rim may be damaged as well. It’s highly unlikely that the shop will admit it’s error so it may be time to just cut your losses and start over with a different shop or learn to build your own. You can’t do worse.
That is why I went with them. I had gone to the local trek store, but they were always in this sports mentality, thinking lighter is better. I don't care how heavy my bike is, I just want it to last. My last good bike, which was stolen about 7 months ago, weighed nearly 40kg and yet was was of the best bikes I had ever owned.

I myself prefer straight gauge spokes. Though I have never had a spoke break in the center, virtually always near the neck. I'd not be against double or triple butted spokes, it's just I have never used them.

Last edited by harshbarj; 02-13-18 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 02-12-18, 04:05 PM
  #50  
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If it's an optical illusion (to me) then disregard my comments. From your posted picture, it appears the build is all over the place, nothing symmetrical that's typical of a traditional wheel build. Unless it's some boutique spoke pattern that wasn't mentioned or the wheel builder used too many crosses for that large hub flange to rim size that the spoke(s) and nipple(s) end up at severe and stressful angles even before tensioning.

It's almost like a 40+h hub being laced to a 36h rim, from the old days when some used mismatched components and made it work (kind of).

In any case a complete rebuild and rethink of how many spoke crosses are necessary would solve the problem regardless of the spoke type (butted or straight gauge) used.

Last edited by Sci-Fi; 02-12-18 at 04:15 PM.
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