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(How To) Cardiac Drift - A Different Way of Looking at Indoor Training

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(How To) Cardiac Drift - A Different Way of Looking at Indoor Training

Old 02-16-19, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Hondo Gravel View Post
All I want to do is ride my bike

Me too!!

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Old 02-16-19, 10:44 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by Hondo Gravel View Post
All I want to do is ride my bike
I used to work with a guy who had only one leg. Rode his bike everyday. Lived in flat terrain. Didn't care how fast he was.
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Old 02-17-19, 01:47 AM
  #128  
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I for one find this to be an entirely fascinating thread but probably not for the reasons the OP intended.
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Old 02-17-19, 07:04 AM
  #129  
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Maximum Sustainable Intensity (MSI)

Maximum sustainable intensity (MSI) is the maximum power you can sustain across all intervals. A self-regulating approach to managing proper intensity, it will ensure you achieve proper stimulus in your sessions. Perceived effort is used to determine whether your session was at MSI.

How to?

If, at the planned end of your final interval, you find that you have "too much left in the tank" there are two things you need to do. First, you need to add an interval if you have another full interval in you or extend the duration of current interval if you are doing longer intervals and don't have another full interval in you. Second, you need to increase the power of your next workout such that you will be operating at MSI. As you can imagine, this might take a few tries to get right.

Manual ERG control

Quite obviously, manual ERG control is essential to this technique. Manual ERG control enables you to add, extend or split intervals as needed to ensure proper stimulus and preserve workout quality. An example of splitting an interval is splitting the second interval of a 2 x 20 workout when it becomes obvious that you are not going to be able to complete the second twenty minutes. Splitting that interval allows you to maintain workout quality by getting the forty minutes at intensity.
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Old 02-17-19, 07:42 AM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
Ok, this thread is hitting bottom. Insults are coming out including insulting the average cyclist. Anything else to add in the way of constructive comments?
If you can't handle your liquor don't post?

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Old 02-17-19, 08:23 AM
  #131  
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Clarification on drift vs MSI

As interesting that I find it that athletes use MSI but still care about FTP, that is not the point of this post, which is about my protocol.

Edit - TL;DR = 5-10% needs to be maintained for all workouts and drift for ANY session in the microcycle is out of control then adjustments can or may need to be made to the microcycle as a whole due to interdependencies of workouts. This is also true at the block level where, for example, load/rate and recovery week frequency must be balanced.

Edit 2 - One more thing that might be helpful is that cardiac drift is how you get MSI for steady state and longer intervals. RPE is there also as I've mentioned with 25% longer than when you begin to look forward to the end of the workout, but drift is absolute accuracy. MSI is better for intensity of very short intervals but drift is still a requirement.


You need to maintain cardiac drift of 5-10% through all training phases. This allows proper intensity, duration and frequency as previous discussed ad nauseam.

As one of the many things that dissenters are skeptical of which automatically come in in the wash or are self-regulating, cardiac drift must be between 5-10% or adjustments need to be made to intensity, duration and frequency.

I think the best way to explain it (and it would help to have some genuine feedback so I can help people understand) is with an example.

In "base", if you must, cardiac drift is king and is used to modify each workout in order to maintain 5-10%.

Skipping way ahead to very late stages, MSI is used for short interval intensity; but cardiac drift must still be 5-10% and, if not, adjustments need to be made to this workout as previously discussed.

However, 5-10% for this MSI workout is not good enough. You need 5-10% for ALL workouts and we are performing workouts targeting multiple energy systems within each microcycle at this point.

So, to continue with this example, consider that your short interval workout is fine but drift for your endurance maintenance workout is spiking or trending upward. This represents a frequency or overall load issue. Your MSI stimulus is spot on but you are not getting adequate recovery between workouts. Guess what? Correct. You need to "decrease frequency" as always when drift is out of whack and that means adjusting your weekly schedule or extending your microcycle past a 7 day calendar week.

Like I said in a previous post this is getting way ahead of class but as you can see these nuances take care of themselves once you get there and have a concrete question to ask but often you don't even need to ask the question if you follow the rules and after some point you will be understanding your personal patterns and relationships between intensity, duration and frequency such that it becomes natural. But you'll never get there if you don't pay attention and don't log your data.

Last edited by fstrnu; 02-17-19 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 02-17-19, 09:40 AM
  #132  
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Here's another attempt at communication. I would appreciate some genuine, constructive feedback, especially regarding how to communicate what I'm trying to communicate. You don't have to believe or endorse it. Just understand it. Or help me to explain it better.

Prescription for managing training load indoors

The universal rule of this protocol is to maintain a cardiac drift of 5-10%

If you are outside this range, you are (a) not getting adequate stimulus, (b) requiring more recovery than is worth it or (c) not getting adequate recovery

Endurance training is where most cyclists start and is the clearest example to explain why this works

Below 5% and you are not sufficiently challenging the body which is required for adaptation

Above 10% and, at best, the additional recovery time isn’t worth it

As endurance improves, cardiac drift will decrease for the same duration and therefore you will need to increase duration to maintain stimulus. Thereby, 5-10% automatically progresses your training to ensure proper stimulus required for adaptation.

With excess workout frequency, fatigue will accumulate indefinitely and eventually lead to illness or injury. Inadequate recovery can also cause stagnation when the next workout is performed before adaptation can occur.

5-10% also automatically regulates recovery. How? Because, an abnormally low heart rate caused by fatigue will manifest in an increase in cardiac drift based on how cardiac drift is calculated. The more fatigue. The higher the drift. Endurance doesn’t move this fast and doesn’t decline when you’re training it. Fatigue, on the other hand, can build and dissipate very quickly and this is 100% reproducible every time. All you need to do to see it in action is to perform three hard workouts in row followed by a couple days of rest. Drift will build, peak and reset with perfect predictability.

This should cover new cyclists and most cyclists in the northern hemisphere who are currently working on endurance.

In the next post, I will describe exactly how to know when you’re done with base and are ready for higher intensity work and how that work should look and be managed using cardiac drift, the internal to external load ratio, RPE, and MSI.
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Old 02-17-19, 09:56 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Here's another attempt at communication. I would appreciate some genuine, constructive feedback.
If you don't know where you're going, then you surely don't know how to get there.
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Old 02-17-19, 10:22 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Below 5% and you are not sufficiently challenging the body which is required for adaptation

Above 10% and, at best, the additional recovery time isn’t worth it
Prove it.
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Old 02-17-19, 10:34 AM
  #135  
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A better way of explaining?

Edited thanks to rubiksoval.

During base, For endurance work, intensity is constant and drift ==> drives ==> duration

After base, For intervals, duration is constant and MSI ==> drives ==> intensity

Always, drift ==> drives ==> frequency

Last edited by fstrnu; 02-17-19 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 02-17-19, 10:46 AM
  #136  
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You lose what you don't work on.
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Old 02-17-19, 10:49 AM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Prove it.
You can! That's the best thing about empirical training! It's all about you. You are the subject in a study with N=1. All you need to know is what indicates success, which is easy because if you can go longer or it's easier then it's working. If not, it's not.

Getting ahead a bit again but these questions help me to figure out how to eventually communicate this stuff.

So...

5-10% is a range where athletes have responded well based on internal data. Stay in there and you're good. But, as you begin to watch this and make adjustments and analyze trends, could you discover that 4% works for you or you can get away with a 11% or you are time-limited so more stimulus is actually required due to forced recovery because you can't work out very frequently? Yes! Or if your older like me and are load-limited then you might go easier. Perfect!

The point is that you'll know whether its working and understand it and understand yourself. Go for it!
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Old 02-17-19, 10:51 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
You lose what you don't work on.
Thanks for this. I debated whether to use "base" or "endurance". "Endurance" is better because it needs to be maintained. Thanks, man! I'll edit it.
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Old 02-17-19, 10:53 AM
  #139  
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Intensity is year round. It never stays constant. Base is everything you've ever done. It's not a "season".
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Old 02-17-19, 10:55 AM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post

5-10% is a range where athletes have responded well based on internal data. !
You don't have data. You don't have athletes. You're not a coach. You don't race. You don't compete.

You parrot other people's work, and you make up things and then use said work as an attempt to justify the things you make up.

Again, no athletes, no data, no clue.
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Old 02-17-19, 11:01 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Intensity is year round. It never stays constant. Base is everything you've ever done. It's not a "season".
Thanks again. Keep it coming, please. I'm obviously way to close to this so this helps me tremendously.

I'd like to better understand what you are saying. Are you saying that the intensity of endurance changes?
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Old 02-17-19, 11:02 AM
  #142  
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I realize you're quite fascinated with my knowledge and understanding of training methodologies and actual real world experience versus your made-up, basement-influenced delusions, but you'd do well to proselytize less and seek wisdom and knowledge more rather than trying to bastardize other people work and comments.

Actually, you'd probably do best to actually go outside and ride. Track actual performance data (in the real world, that's done by time/speed), and then report back with all of your misunderstandings and questions.

After all, that's what the end result most everyone training (structured and not) are actually riding their bike for: real world performance.

Like I said, if you don't know the destination, you surely don't know how to get there. You very clearly don't know the destination, in addition to not understanding the multitude of paths one can take to arrive there.
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Old 02-17-19, 11:03 AM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
You don't have data. You don't have athletes. You're not a coach. You don't race. You don't compete.

You parrot other people's work, and you make up things and then use said work as an attempt to justify the things you make up.

Again, no athletes, no data, no clue.
Thank you for your feedback. You are correct. It's not my data.
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Old 02-17-19, 11:07 AM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
I realize you're quite fascinated with my knowledge and understanding of training methodologies and actual real world experience versus your made-up, basement-influenced delusions, but you'd do well to proselytize less and seek wisdom and knowledge more rather than trying to bastardize other people work and comments.

Actually, you'd probably do best to actually go outside and ride. Track actual performance data (in the real world, that's done by time/speed), and then report back with all of your misunderstandings and questions.

After all, that's what the end result most everyone training (structured and not) are actually riding their bike for: real world performance.

Like I said, if you don't know the destination, you surely don't know how to get there. You very clearly don't know the destination, in addition to not understanding the multitude of paths one can take to arrive there.
Thank you for taking the time to share your feedback.
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Old 02-17-19, 11:10 AM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Intensity is year round. It never stays constant. Base is everything you've ever done. It's not a "season".
I'd like to better understand what you are saying. Are you saying that the intensity of endurance changes?
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Old 02-17-19, 11:15 AM
  #146  
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You can't understand that if you don't understand the destination.
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Old 02-17-19, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
5-10% is a range where athletes have responded well based on internal data.
What is 'internal data'?

Here is an example (from Short intervals induce superior training adaptations compared with long intervals in cyclists – An effort-matched approach) of what people expect to see as evidence that a particular approach has merit:

The purpose of this study was to compare the effects of 10 weeks of effort-matched short intervals (SI; n = 9) or long intervals (LI; n = 7) in cyclists. The high-intensity interval sessions (HIT) were performed twice a week interspersed with low-intensity training. There were no differences between groups at pretest. There were no differences between groups in total volume of both HIT and low-intensity training. The SI group achieved a larger relative improvement in VO2max than the LI group (8.7% ± 5.0% vs 2.6% ± 5.2%), respectively, P ≤ 0.05). Mean effect size (ES) of the relative improvement in all measured parameters, including performance measured as mean power output during 30-s all-out, 5-min all-out, and 40-min all-out tests revealed a moderate-to-large effect of SI training vs LI training (ES range was 0.86–1.54). These results suggest that the present SI protocol induces superior training adaptations on both the highpower region and lower power region of cyclists’ power profile compared with the present LI protocol.
This is the reason people pay attention to metrics like FTP. It's a simple metric to gauge the efficacy of a particular training regime that doesn't require a lab to measure.

Unless you can show that your measures directly correlate to actual performance you're going to continue talking to yourself and no one will be listening.
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Old 02-17-19, 11:49 AM
  #148  
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MSI, RPE, I:E and manual ERG mode

Time for intervals! In my last post, I promised to write up how to apply my protocol to higher intensity work. Here it is!

Let's start with a high level and very brief refresher on what interval design needs to address.

Training is concerned with getting the right amount of and balancing stress with recovery in order to get stronger. We workout, recover and get stronger. At least that's the idea.

First, we have to figure out how to impose stress and to do that we have three things to work with; intensity, duration and frequency. OK? Good.

Hold up. Let's back it up a tiny bit. Before we get into specifics, it's important to understand in a more general sense that the body needs to be challenged in order to adapt and progression is required to continually challenge the body as it gets stronger. Challenge ==> Adapt ==> Greater challenge ==> Adapt again ==> etc

Okay NOW we can get into the "programming variables", intensity, duration and frequency. Incidentally, these little guys (they're so cute I almost can't stand it ; seriously there's no reason to be afraid of them) combine to produce what is called load. And duration and frequency combine to make volume. So load is a product of volume and intensity.

Anyway, how do you know how to get intensity right? That's easy. It's called MSI, which is short for maximum sustainable intensity. All you need to do is perform your intervals at the maximum power that you can sustain for all intervals. Questions?

And duration is easy because that's dictated by interval structure. 4 x 4, 4 x 8, whatever you fancy. Just do them at MSI and you're good. Too much left in the tank after that last 4 x 4 interval? No prob, with manual ERG mode you can simply add an interval to make it a 5 x 4 and then you can increase the power for the next time. Incidentally, 4 x 4 MSI is a good indicator of VO2max.

All that's left is frequency and this is where cardiac drift and I:E come in. If frequency is too great, cardiac drift will skyrocket, often coinciding with and increase in RPE and abnormal decrease in average work interval heart rate. If performance is not improving, then you're probably not working out frequently enough and missing the top of the adaptation curve. Speed it up and see what happens.

Hold on, you say? How do you know whether performance is improving you say? Easy. It's called the internal:external load ratio. Or the internal-to-external load ratio might be less intimidating. I call it I:E.

What's I:E?

I:E is the relationship between external load, which is the work performed, and internal load, which is the impact it has on your body. As you become more fit, the same workout will become easier or you'll be able to do more for the same effort. It's what we all intuitively understand and have been using all along without knowing it. It's the gold standard for performance measurement when combined with fixed power under controlled conditions indoors.

External load is easy to measure, especially directionally for comparison purposes. RPE, HR, and drift all help with internal load. If a workout is easier than it use to be, you are more fit. If HR decreases without a spike in RPE or cardiac drift, you are more fit. Done.

Questions?

Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Here's another attempt at communication. I would appreciate some genuine, constructive feedback, especially regarding how to communicate what I'm trying to communicate. You don't have to believe or endorse it. Just understand it. Or help me to explain it better.

Prescription for managing training load indoors

The universal rule of this protocol is to maintain a cardiac drift of 5-10%

If you are outside this range, you are (a) not getting adequate stimulus, (b) requiring more recovery than is worth it or (c) not getting adequate recovery

Endurance training is where most cyclists start and is the clearest example to explain why this works

Below 5% and you are not sufficiently challenging the body which is required for adaptation

Above 10% and, at best, the additional recovery time isn’t worth it

As endurance improves, cardiac drift will decrease for the same duration and therefore you will need to increase duration to maintain stimulus. Thereby, 5-10% automatically progresses your training to ensure proper stimulus required for adaptation.

With excess workout frequency, fatigue will accumulate indefinitely and eventually lead to illness or injury. Inadequate recovery can also cause stagnation when the next workout is performed before adaptation can occur.

5-10% also automatically regulates recovery. How? Because, an abnormally low heart rate caused by fatigue will manifest in an increase in cardiac drift based on how cardiac drift is calculated. The more fatigue. The higher the drift. Endurance doesn’t move this fast and doesn’t decline when you’re training it. Fatigue, on the other hand, can build and dissipate very quickly and this is 100% reproducible every time. All you need to do to see it in action is to perform three hard workouts in row followed by a couple days of rest. Drift will build, peak and reset with perfect predictability.

This should cover new cyclists and most cyclists in the northern hemisphere who are currently working on endurance.

In the next post, I will describe exactly how to know when you’re done with base and are ready for higher intensity work and how that work should look and be managed using cardiac drift, the internal to external load ratio, RPE, and MSI.
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Old 02-17-19, 11:50 AM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
You can't understand that if you don't understand the destination.
Perhaps you'd like to explain it to the group then?
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Old 02-17-19, 11:53 AM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by fstrnu View Post
Perhaps you'd like to explain it to the group then?
I'm confident the group gets it. I've seen multiple posters state something similar.

Sort of a reoccurring theme. Again, one you blissfully ignore.
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