Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

No-Hands Shimmy (2019 Version)

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

No-Hands Shimmy (2019 Version)

Old 06-25-19, 08:34 PM
  #1  
Fahrenheit531 
50th Anniversary Edition
Thread Starter
 
Fahrenheit531's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 3,454

Bikes: Schwinn Paramount ('71) and Volare ('78); Raleigh Competition GS ('79)

Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 544 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 30 Posts
No-Hands Shimmy (2019 Version)

Okay, so I've done my homework and have discovered a great many things that can cause the front end to shimmy when taking your hands off the bars. But there hasn't been a thread on this in a while so hey, let's try a new angle on it. Rather than "what causes this?" we'll play "can this cause it?"

The bike: '79 Raleigh Competition GS, set up for commuter duty: rear rack with a trunk on top, no panniers, rarely is there more than 5-6 lbs of stuff back there. Headset and all the other maintenance-type things I've seen mentioned in previous threads are in good order.

The recent change and primary suspect: Switched from a 90mm SR Royal stem to an 80mm Technomic. Bars are now 5cm higher than they were, and are set back probably 2cm(?) from previous.

Could this really be enough to tip things into general instability? The bike seems to think so, but I'm curious if anyone has run into a similar situation after going to a Technomic.

Pic, because it's what we do here:
__________________
A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
Fahrenheit531 is offline  
Old 06-25-19, 10:10 PM
  #2  
ThermionicScott 
hungry
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 18,506

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2025 Post(s)
Liked 95 Times in 79 Posts
I'm far from an expert on these things, but my Bianchi Sport SX also gets wiggly when I take my hands off the bars. It was a bit unstable for the previous owner, @balindamood, as well. Interestingly, the only hardware in common for our riding is the frame (excepting the fork), and I've used the string test to make sure it's pretty well aligned. What does seem to be in common, is having weight too far back, and not enough of it on the front wheel. Brian used a rear rack and trunk bag, I had it set up in sort of a French/Eddy fit with knees behind KOPS and an 80mm stem. The new fork has more rake for less trail -- I'm not sure if that helped or hurt the stability, but it makes the bike easier to control with a light touch, so I'm content. I've scooched my saddle forward a bit and am pretty much at KOPS now, considering a 90mm stem since I can now reach forward a bit more. Moving my weight forward seems to have helped. The bike still gets shaky if I take my hands off and pedal at 20+ MPH, but now I can ride no-hands smoothly at 15-18 MPH.

I think the ultimate solution might be to find a frame that's 10mm shorter in the top tube, and make up for it at the stem so that a little more of the front wheel is under me. (My Bianchi Eros, one size smaller, doesn't wiggle.) Perhaps longer chainstays would help, too. Might be looking at a custom frame if too many of these odd demands add up.

That's a lot of blathering to say moving your bars up and back may have indeed hurt your cause. One thing to try is to pull your rear wheel back in the dropouts -- I like to line up the rear axle with the seat stay, and can see that your wheel is ahead of that.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498

Last edited by ThermionicScott; 06-25-19 at 10:19 PM.
ThermionicScott is online now  
Old 06-26-19, 05:14 AM
  #3  
Pompiere
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 2,461

Bikes: 1984 Miyata 310, 1986 Schwinn Sierra, 2011 Jamis Quest, 1980 Peugeot TH8 Tandem, 1992 Performance Parabola, 1987 Ross Mt. Hood, 1988 Schwinn LeTour, 1988 Trek 400T

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 217 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Contrary to what many have reported, I found that moving the saddle forward tends to make my bikes less stable when taking my hands off the bars. I discovered this after moving the saddle forward to compensate for too long of a reach. When I tested the bike, I found I could not ride it no-handed, the wheel would quickly turn to either the left or right.. Previously, I could easily ride no-handed. Moving the saddle toward the rear 1/4 to 1/2 inch corrected the problem and the bike was stable no-handed again.
Pompiere is offline  
Old 06-26-19, 05:43 AM
  #4  
John E
feros ferio
 
John E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 19,405

Bikes: 1959 & 1960 Capo; 1982 Bianchi; 1988 Schwinn KOM-10;

Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 697 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 20 Posts
Shimmy is a resonance problem, and if you are now sitting further back in the saddle or not leaning as far forward, you have changed the mass distribution of the rider-bicycle system. Try bending your elbows and sitting and/or leaning slightly farther forward. The lean may be the key here, because it alters the height distribution of your weight over the frame.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324
Capo: 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
John E is offline  
Old 06-26-19, 06:56 AM
  #5  
jethin
Senior Member
 
jethin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 722
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
I have a lightweight bike that shimmies too. I only noticed it after swapping the wheels. But my guess is that it shimmied with the previous wheels too — I just hadn’t tried riding no hands at speed. I do think the shimmy is more pronounced the further back I am on the saddle. My guesses: frameset resonance, unbalanced wheel weight, tires and/or wheels not mounted perfectly straight; replacement fork/geo. Also maybe a bent frame, but IIRC mine passed the string test too. Shimmy is quite the mystery.
jethin is offline  
Old 06-26-19, 07:13 AM
  #6  
Lemond1985
Sophomore Member
 
Lemond1985's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 1,434
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 789 Post(s)
Liked 149 Times in 108 Posts
I have one set of wheels that has induced identical shimmies on two different steel frames, fairly stiff ones. A 531 Raleigh Competition and a Lemond Tourmalet. These both occurred while coasting, with one foot down and no hands. I'm wondering if maybe it could be the radially-laced front wheel lacking spoke tension? Or something else? Headsets are both in good shape, so i think I can rule that out. Is it strictly a "steel frame thing"?

I agree, it's quite the mystery. I have noticed that European pros ride no-handed all the time without problems (Brad Wiggins notwithstanding) so I'm suspecting there may be a mechanical fix that the professional mechanics know about.
Lemond1985 is offline  
Old 06-26-19, 08:20 AM
  #7  
Fahrenheit531 
50th Anniversary Edition
Thread Starter
 
Fahrenheit531's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 3,454

Bikes: Schwinn Paramount ('71) and Volare ('78); Raleigh Competition GS ('79)

Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 544 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 30 Posts
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
[...] One thing to try is to pull your rear wheel back in the dropouts -- I like to line up the rear axle with the seat stay, and can see that your wheel is ahead of that.
Genius! This will be tried immediately. The looong Campy dropouts mean I might be able to make a real difference this way -- I've got more than 2cm (maybe even 3) available behind the current position.

Thanks to all who replied. You gave me at least a couple of things to consider now that I may not have otherwise.
__________________
A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
Fahrenheit531 is offline  
Old 06-26-19, 03:27 PM
  #8  
gugie 
Crapmaster Emeritus
 
gugie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 7,356

Bikes: JP Weigle'd Raleigh Competition reconstruct, 73 Raleigh Competition 650b'ed, 96 Bike Friday NWT, 83 Lotus Classique, 78 Centurion ProTour, 73 Raleigh Grand Sports

Mentioned: 775 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2215 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 40 Times in 32 Posts
Solution to shimmy, explained.

__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
gugie is online now  
Old 06-26-19, 08:27 PM
  #9  
bwilli88 
Senior Member
 
bwilli88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Kampong Cham, Cambodia but I have quite a few in Lancaster, PA
Posts: 1,764

Bikes: Bikes in USA; 73 Raleigh Supercourse dingle speed, 74 Raleigh Grand Prix SS, 78 Raleigh Supercourse, 83 Centurion Pro-Tour, 82 Raleigh RRA.

Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 416 Post(s)
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
My motorcycles get shimmy if I sit too far back on the seat and take weight off the pegs. Reweighting the pegs immediately straightens things out. My Centurion Pro-tour gets some shimmy with out tension on my front bag, strings to the handlebar or a decaleur stop it. If riding no hand I tend to put my weight on my seat, putting weight on the pedals stops the tendency to shimmy but that is hard riding no hands.
bwilli88 is offline  
Old 06-26-19, 09:16 PM
  #10  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 20,423

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1693 Post(s)
Liked 61 Times in 41 Posts
Originally Posted by Fahrenheit531 View Post
The recent change and primary suspect:[/i] Switched from a 90mm SR Royal stem to an 80mm Technomic. Bars are now 5cm higher than they were, and are set back probably 2cm(?) from previous.

Could this really be enough to tip things into general instability? The bike seems to think so, but I'm curious if anyone has run into a similar situation after going to a Technomic.
Not sure how a stem change could induce a no-hands shimmy. I suspect something else is the cause.

FWIW, I just changed a 95mm SR Royal stem to an 80mm Technomic with no shimmy problems.
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 06-27-19, 08:14 AM
  #11  
SpeedofLite 
Senior Member
 
SpeedofLite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Henderson, NV, USA
Posts: 441

Bikes: Litespeed (8); Slingshot (6); Specialized (2); Kestrel (2); Softride (2); Cervelo (1); FELT (1); Cannondale (1); Fuji (1); Centurion (1); Schwinn (1)

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 107 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 17 Posts
Originally Posted by gugie View Post
Solution to shimmy, explained.
Dang, I thought you were posting the Russo shimmy scene (or waggle.... or whatever..)
__________________
WTB: Slingshot road model (1990s era; 18" L or 20" XL frame size)
WTB: Slingshot promotional documents (catalog, pamphlets, etc).
WTB: Bicycling! Issues Oct 1969 and Jan 1973.
WTB: ZIPP 500 front wheel (650c clincher)
SpeedofLite is offline  
Old 06-27-19, 08:45 AM
  #12  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 18,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times in 30 Posts
I'm convinced that strong no-hands low-speed shimmy is related to some kind of wheel tracking problem. I have cured that kind of shimmy by aligning the rear end of a bike. OTOH, I have seen forks that weren't aligned on bikes that didn't shimmy at all. People report that fork alignment problems can cause shimmy. No-hands shimmy seems to be more prevalent the less trail a bike has. So front weighting those is a good idea.

The pros are on bikes with a lot of trail. Probably has a lot to do with their lack of problems with shimmy. I am a little surprised they don't have high speed shimmy/speed wobble though.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 06-27-19, 02:14 PM
  #13  
ThermionicScott 
hungry
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 18,506

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2025 Post(s)
Liked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
I'm convinced that strong no-hands low-speed shimmy is related to some kind of wheel tracking problem. I have cured that kind of shimmy by aligning the rear end of a bike. OTOH, I have seen forks that weren't aligned on bikes that didn't shimmy at all. People report that fork alignment problems can cause shimmy. No-hands shimmy seems to be more prevalent the less trail a bike has. So front weighting those is a good idea.

The pros are on bikes with a lot of trail. Probably has a lot to do with their lack of problems with shimmy. I am a little surprised they don't have high speed shimmy/speed wobble though.
Race bikes having more trail might be part of it. Jobst Brandt claimed that experienced riders just knew how to deal with it, so they didn't talk about it.

All my bicycles have shimmied on demand and it has never bothered me because I don't need to let it shimmy. It seems that in the days of yore, when only young can-do racers rode racing (light weight) Italian and French frames, it was their business to take care of such anomalies. We never talked about it.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is online now  
Old 06-27-19, 04:05 PM
  #14  
TiHabanero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,274
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 643 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 20 Times in 19 Posts
Last summer my 1982 Competition GS was returned to me with all the original parts I had on it. Took it out for a ride and entered a tank slapper at 35mph down hill. Controlled it and made it home. Put it in the stand and found spoke tension to be exceptionally low. Brought it up to tension and have been riding without a hitch. Hit 40mph the other day without trouble.

One trick I learned with motorcycles was to tighten down the tension on the headset. helps to stabilize shimmy's.
TiHabanero is offline  
Old 06-27-19, 04:17 PM
  #15  
ramzilla
Senior Member
 
ramzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: 10% Atlanta GA 90% Fernandina FL
Posts: 2,467

Bikes: Vintage Japanese Bicycles

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 6 Posts
I built up a 1987 Centurion Ironman with brand new Vuelta XRP racing wheels, Microshift brifters, cables, brakes, chain, cleaned and polished. It weighs 21-1/2 lbs. The very first time I took my hands off the handlebars cruising downhill about 20mph it started to shimmy. Scared the #@%^& out of me. Never had that happen before. Went away as soon as I put my weight on the handlebars again. If anybody can figure it out let me know. I love that bike. It's a fantastic ride.
ramzilla is offline  
Old 06-27-19, 04:35 PM
  #16  
JohnDThompson 
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 20,423

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 109 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1693 Post(s)
Liked 61 Times in 41 Posts
Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
One trick I learned with motorcycles was to tighten down the tension on the headset. helps to stabilize shimmy's.
Jan Heine has suggested that a roller bearing headset like the Stronglight A9 can dampen shimmy.
JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 06-27-19, 08:32 PM
  #17  
Fahrenheit531 
50th Anniversary Edition
Thread Starter
 
Fahrenheit531's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 3,454

Bikes: Schwinn Paramount ('71) and Volare ('78); Raleigh Competition GS ('79)

Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 544 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 30 Posts
Well thanks to all. You've given me a lot to think about and explore as I track down a solution.

FWIW, moving the axle rearward in the dropouts -- and I moved it all the way back -- didn't resolve things. I was hoping it would, as the weight was effectively moved slightly forward. No dice.

In the meantime I suppose I'll keep my hands on the bars.
__________________
A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
Fahrenheit531 is offline  
Old 06-28-19, 06:39 AM
  #18  
JaccoW
Tinkerer
 
JaccoW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Posts: 893

Bikes: Batavus Randonneur GL, Gazelle Orange Excellent, Gazelle Super Licht, Gazelle Grand Tourist

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 262 Post(s)
Liked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Jan Heine has suggested that a roller bearing headset like the Stronglight A9 can dampen shimmy.
Can concur. Put an IRD roller bearing headset on mine and that fixed virtually all shimmy. And when it does happen it is a whole lot more manageable.

Lighter wheels (or tyres) helps too.
JaccoW is offline  
Old 06-28-19, 07:24 AM
  #19  
jethin
Senior Member
 
jethin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 722
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
I think wheel weight/balance and tire/tire mounting issues may have something to do with shimmy. If a wheel is unbalanced for some reason, or the tire tread(s) aren't in a straight line, couldn't this contribute to "resonance"? I also think that lighter and more compliant frames may be more prone to resonating.
jethin is offline  
Old 06-28-19, 07:33 AM
  #20  
unterhausen
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 18,240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times in 30 Posts
My Viner would shimmy at higher speeds if I moved my butt back on the saddle further than normal, I have had a couple of scary incidents on that bike. I could ride it no hands without any problems though, the speeds where I would want to do that are much lower than where it would shimmy. My understanding is that all bikes will shimmy at some speed, it's just that the good ones only shimmy at speeds higher than anyone rides.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 06-28-19, 01:59 PM
  #21  
ThermionicScott 
hungry
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 18,506

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers)

Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2025 Post(s)
Liked 95 Times in 79 Posts
My mind keeps drawing parallels to electronics, particularly tube amplifiers. Lots of opportunities for those to oscillate, and oftentimes luck plays a role. A draggier headset could be likened to putting a low-pass filter on the steering input.
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp View Post
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is online now  
Likes For ThermionicScott:
Old 06-28-19, 03:59 PM
  #22  
Feldman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 974
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Have you checked either/or rear hub cone adjustment and rear wheel tensioning and dishing? I have found that too loose rear cones, too loose rear spoke tension, and a rear wheel out of dish can all contribute to some shimmy.
Feldman is offline  
Old 06-29-19, 01:54 AM
  #23  
Fahrenheit531 
50th Anniversary Edition
Thread Starter
 
Fahrenheit531's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 3,454

Bikes: Schwinn Paramount ('71) and Volare ('78); Raleigh Competition GS ('79)

Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 544 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 30 Posts
Random update: Front wheel has been ruled out after swapping in the front from my Paramount. Same size/brand tire, Continental GP Classic, but on H+Son rim and Campy high-flange hub. Just about as perfect a wheel as I could ask for.

...the shimmy remains.

Might just tear the whole thing down and take the frame/fork for a proper alignment. Was hoping to avoid that.
__________________
A race bike in any era is a highly personal choice that at its "best" balances the requirements of fit, weight, handling, durability and cost tempered by the willingness to toss it and oneself down the pavement at considerable speed. ~Bandera
Fahrenheit531 is offline  
Old 06-29-19, 06:46 AM
  #24  
jethin
Senior Member
 
jethin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 722
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Originally Posted by Fahrenheit531 View Post
Might just tear the whole thing down and take the frame/fork for a proper alignment. Was hoping to avoid that.
I salute your tenacity, and welcome any new data points on the mysterious issue of shimmy. Good luck!
jethin is offline  
Old 06-30-19, 04:00 PM
  #25  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Village, New York City
Posts: 37,144

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1973 Raleigh Twenty, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 419 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5365 Post(s)
Liked 79 Times in 62 Posts
There might indeed be a frame alignment problem, but you might be able to get around it by replacing the rear rack with a front rack.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.