Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

ID, all chrome, a hidden gem? maybe

Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

ID, all chrome, a hidden gem? maybe

Old 06-26-19, 11:44 PM
  #51  
vintagerando 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,950
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 432 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
If the serial is anything to go by, potentially a more mass-marketed frame than we might think. #385 of 1969, perhaps?

That assumes, of course, that the fork and rear bridge were drilled. Do the recessed mounts look factory? If so, perhaps we're dealing with a newer bike than my mind would like to think it is.

Wearing myself out checking chainstays at Classic Lightweights...

-Kurt
Yeah, I keep searching. What about the double brazed on cable guides on the downtube? Were these common? I haven't seen them on many frames.


__________________
1967 Frejus
1968 Peugeot PX-10
1983 Peter Mooney
1995 Waterford 1200
1996 Waterford 1200
2003 Dahon Speed P8
2013 Rawland Stag
2016 Giant Defy Advanced Pro 0
vintagerando is offline  
Old 06-27-19, 05:26 AM
  #52  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 23,505

Bikes: http://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 314 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 69 Posts
Originally Posted by vintagerando View Post
Yeah, I keep searching. What about the double brazed on cable guides on the downtube? Were these common? I haven't seen them on many frames.
No idea if that config is common, but the casting looks like the same squared off cable stops used by Raleigh and most British bike builders at the time.

It is the main reason I'm leaning heavily towards this being a UK build.

-Kurt
__________________
cudak888 is offline  
Old 06-27-19, 06:36 AM
  #53  
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,928
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 929 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 41 Times in 38 Posts
Cable guides like those have been on some bikes posted in this forum recently. Older ones. I have a 72 Lejeune that has them. My 72 Crescent does not have them. It does have the lugs. Crescent made a chrome bike. That is one possibility.
seypat is offline  
Old 06-27-19, 06:40 AM
  #54  
rustystrings61 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Greenwood SC USA
Posts: 764

Bikes: 2002 Mercian Vincitore, 1982 Mercian Colorado, 1976 Puch Royal X, 1973 Raleigh Competition, 1971 Gitane Tour de France and others

Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 264 Post(s)
Liked 34 Times in 21 Posts
Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Provided this thing isn't 753 (and despite the recessed brake mounts, I doubt it), I bet you anything that it'd straighten out with a Park HTS-1, and if not in an HTS-1, sticking the headtube in a solid rod and yanking up on the chainstays ought to do it, as brutal and unscientific as it sounds. I recently straightened out a Super Grand Prix this way to marvelous success.

-Kurt
This is the method I used a couple of years back on an old Mercier with good results - like Kurt said, leave the headset cups in place to prevent ovalization. In this photo I had let things sag back apart, but the top cup was seated when I was exerting force. It's surprising how easy this actually was - the utility pole did a lot of the work. I used a length of galvanized plumbing pipe from Lowe's, not as sophisticated as cudak888's propellor shaft, but an amazingly useful tool I originally bought to use as a cheater bar to removed truck bed bolts. Every workshop should have one!

Oh, and OP? BEAUTIFUL find.
rustystrings61 is offline  
Likes For rustystrings61:
Old 06-27-19, 09:05 AM
  #55  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,244
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 348 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 15 Posts
The cable-guide braze-ons on down tube were fairly commonplace for any bike intended to use bar-end controls (barcons) so nothing that unusual on a frame with long DOs and cable clips, etc. Does sort of indicate this may have been a semi-custom build for a customer that specified what components they were using. Many Brit builders would do that including Holdsworthy (who also very occasionally did use Nervex pro lugs but AFAIK not an EDA BB shell). This may never get an exact ID but OP could try sending it to somebody like Norris Lockley or Hillary Stone...maybe best to join and enquire thru the Classic Rendezvous "List" (a Google group, free to join) Also agreed that having recessed bolts for both F&R brakes IS a bit unusual for a frame that appears to early for thi, BUT let's see a pic of that brake bridge (and the 2 may have been drilled out after-market or it's more evidence of a "custom build")

Last edited by unworthy1; 06-27-19 at 09:10 AM.
unworthy1 is offline  
Likes For unworthy1:
Old 06-27-19, 09:30 AM
  #56  
jeirvine 
Senior Member
 
jeirvine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Bethesda/Baltimore MD
Posts: 3,186

Bikes: '72 Moto Grand Record, '72 Gitane tandem, '72 Raleigh Super Course, '73 Raleigh Gran Sport, '73 and '76 Colnagos Super, '76 Fiorelli Coppi, '78 Raleigh SBDU Team Pro, '78 Trek 930, '81 Holdsworth Special 650B, '86 Masi GC, '87 Panasonic DX5000

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 428 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 18 Times in 11 Posts
Originally Posted by rustystrings61 View Post
This picture makes me happy. I love our strange hobby.
__________________
The man who dies with the most toys…is dead. - Rootboy
jeirvine is offline  
Likes For jeirvine:
Old 06-27-19, 10:50 AM
  #57  
vintagerando 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,950
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 432 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
The cable-guide braze-ons on down tube were fairly commonplace for any bike intended to use bar-end controls (barcons) so nothing that unusual on a frame with long DOs and cable clips, etc. Does sort of indicate this may have been a semi-custom build for a customer that specified what components they were using. Many Brit builders would do that including Holdsworthy (who also very occasionally did use Nervex pro lugs but AFAIK not an EDA BB shell). This may never get an exact ID but OP could try sending it to somebody like Norris Lockley or Hillary Stone...maybe best to join and enquire thru the Classic Rendezvous "List" (a Google group, free to join) Also agreed that having recessed bolts for both F&R brakes IS a bit unusual for a frame that appears to early for thi, BUT let's see a pic of that brake bridge (and the 2 may have been drilled out after-market or it's more evidence of a "custom build")

vintagerando is offline  
Old 06-27-19, 03:55 PM
  #58  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 23,505

Bikes: http://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 314 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 69 Posts
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
Many Brit builders would do that including Holdsworthy (who also very occasionally did use Nervex pro lugs but AFAIK not an EDA BB shell).
I wouldn't be surprised if the BB substitution was for the same reason Schwinn stopped using Nervex Pros on the Paramount: Too much effort to clean them up well and often difficult to fit.

-Kurt
__________________
cudak888 is offline  
Old 06-27-19, 07:34 PM
  #59  
jackbombay
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 97
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by jeirvine View Post
This picture makes me happy. I love our strange hobby.
Yea, I have an old Hercules that will be getting that treatment sometime this summer!
jackbombay is offline  
Old 06-27-19, 08:13 PM
  #60  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 23,505

Bikes: http://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 314 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 69 Posts
Pics aren't that sharp. Looks drilled out to me.

-Kurt
__________________
cudak888 is offline  
Old 06-27-19, 08:51 PM
  #61  
St33lWh33ls
Senior Member
 
St33lWh33ls's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Sunny Florida
Posts: 353
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Seat cluster looks a lot like this Raleigh International

link
St33lWh33ls is offline  
Old 06-27-19, 10:50 PM
  #62  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 23,505

Bikes: http://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 314 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 69 Posts
Originally Posted by St33lWh33ls View Post
Seat cluster looks a lot like this Raleigh International

link
OP's bike has full wraparound stays. That International has partial-wrap stays; they're pointed and meet in the center.

I did consider the Raleigh International angle, but it doesn't explain the nice lugwork and the removal of the flanges on the top and bottom of the Nervex lugs, which the Internationals retained.

Also, this would have assumed that a framebuilder conciously removed the top tube cable stop braze ons and either re-positioned them to the areas on the bike now, or bought the same type of cable stop braze ons, installed them, and then removed the TT guides.

-Kurt
__________________
cudak888 is offline  
Old 06-28-19, 12:02 AM
  #63  
vintagerando 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,950
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 432 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 15 Posts
Its quite amazing that the stem, seatpost, and BB cups came out on the first turn. Almost unbelievable considering how beat up the bike is.
__________________
1967 Frejus
1968 Peugeot PX-10
1983 Peter Mooney
1995 Waterford 1200
1996 Waterford 1200
2003 Dahon Speed P8
2013 Rawland Stag
2016 Giant Defy Advanced Pro 0
vintagerando is offline  
Old 06-28-19, 05:26 AM
  #64  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 23,505

Bikes: http://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 314 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 69 Posts
Originally Posted by vintagerando View Post
Its quite amazing that the stem, seatpost, and BB cups came out on the first turn. Almost unbelievable considering how beat up the bike is.
Someone probably greased them all on installation, the way they were meant to be installed. Works wonders, even after a bike has been through the wringer, like this one.

-Kurt
__________________
cudak888 is offline  
Old 06-28-19, 06:07 AM
  #65  
big chainring 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Wilmette, IL
Posts: 6,467
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 395 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
Maybe a Bob Jackson?
big chainring is offline  
Old 06-28-19, 02:02 PM
  #66  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,244
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 348 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by big chainring View Post
Maybe a Bob Jackson?
Suppose that it could be a Bob Jackson (AKA JRJ or maybe even one of his Merlins) but no clue that gives away anything. JRJ/Jackson/Merlin certainly did use Nervex pro lugs but by around this frame's era they were employing more Prugnat lugs, typically. And not sure they ever used EDA BB shells. I saw something that may be a clue: the serial numerals on both BB shell and steerer have not rusted (much) compared to the "R ^ M" and I agree that looks more like an inverted "V" than an "A", on the BB shell. Leads me to think it was done after the chroming (not before) so more likely stamped by an owner than a builder.
unworthy1 is offline  
Old 06-28-19, 05:34 PM
  #67  
vintagerando 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,950
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 432 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 15 Posts
I showed my buddy a mechanic at my LBS. Mind you, he just looked at two photos; he immediately said "Crescent"
__________________
1967 Frejus
1968 Peugeot PX-10
1983 Peter Mooney
1995 Waterford 1200
1996 Waterford 1200
2003 Dahon Speed P8
2013 Rawland Stag
2016 Giant Defy Advanced Pro 0
vintagerando is offline  
Old 06-28-19, 06:00 PM
  #68  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,244
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 348 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by vintagerando View Post
I showed my buddy a mechanic at my LBS. Mind you, he just looked at two photos; he immediately said "Crescent"
Don't think so: Crescent (Monark) didn't use a full-wrap seat cluster nor a sloping fork crown, usually. Plus this would not be one of their Stainless Steel models because: rust.
see CR's page on Crescent: h**p://www.classicrendezvous.com/Sweden/crescent.htm
unworthy1 is offline  
Old 06-28-19, 07:36 PM
  #69  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 23,505

Bikes: http://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 314 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 69 Posts
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
Suppose that it could be a Bob Jackson (AKA JRJ or maybe even one of his Merlins) but no clue that gives away anything. JRJ/Jackson/Merlin certainly did use Nervex pro lugs but by around this frame's era they were employing more Prugnat lugs, typically. And not sure they ever used EDA BB shells. I saw something that may be a clue: the serial numerals on both BB shell and steerer have not rusted (much) compared to the "R ^ M" and I agree that looks more like an inverted "V" than an "A", on the BB shell. Leads me to think it was done after the chroming (not before) so more likely stamped by an owner than a builder.
I wouldn't necessarily rule Bob Jackson out though. There was that 63cm frame on eBay with Nervex lugs and the sloping Davis crown. Most Jacksons with Nervex lugs still have a slight edge on the lug ends though.

Originally Posted by vintagerando View Post
I showed my buddy a mechanic at my LBS. Mind you, he just looked at two photos; he immediately said "Crescent"
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
Don't think so: Crescent (Monark) didn't use a full-wrap seat cluster nor a sloping fork crown, usually. Plus this would not be one of their Stainless Steel models because: rust.
see CR's page on Crescent: h**p://www.classicrendezvous.com/Sweden/crescent.htm
The lugwork on Cresents was rough as a cob, and they didn't clean up those rings at each end of the Nervex Pros. Plus, the lugs would be full of surface rust if left unpainted.

-Kurt
__________________
cudak888 is offline  
Old 06-28-19, 07:59 PM
  #70  
cqlink 
Senior Member
 
cqlink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Detroit
Posts: 422

Bikes: '72 Paramount 15-9, '74 Schwinn Paramount P10-9, '73 Schwinn Super Sport, 2017 Motobecane Cafe Noir, 1971 Raleigh Competition

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Evapo-Rust at Pep Boys is your new best friend.
cqlink is offline  
Likes For cqlink:
Old 06-28-19, 09:33 PM
  #71  
Kactus 
Senior Member
 
Kactus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 2,816

Bikes: 1962 Schwinn Paramount P12, 1971 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1974 Motobecane Champion Team, 1976 Masi Gran Criterium, 1978 Raleigh Professional

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 330 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
You mean the FD has a built-in cable stop? That's a Record FD, predating Nuovo. Pretty hard to find and used to be worth something 10 years ago; might still be.-Kurt
It looks like the first variation without the c-clip or screw spring retainer. This would put it around '61 or '62?

It looks like a very nice quality frame. If it can be straightened and doesn't have serious rust damage, the OP may have a real gem.
__________________
Life... is a state of mind.
Kactus is offline  
Likes For Kactus:
Old 06-28-19, 11:30 PM
  #72  
vintagerando 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 1,950
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 432 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 15 Posts
Originally Posted by Kactus View Post
It looks like the first variation without the c-clip or screw spring retainer. This would put it around '61 or '62?

It looks like a very nice quality frame. If it can be straightened and doesn't have serious rust damage, the OP may have a real gem.
Thanks for info. Yeah...about the rust issue. Bottom bracket area is bad. Now I need to investigate, among the products that can be used for rust removal , which will not damage the chrome patina. If you have any ideas, please share.
__________________
1967 Frejus
1968 Peugeot PX-10
1983 Peter Mooney
1995 Waterford 1200
1996 Waterford 1200
2003 Dahon Speed P8
2013 Rawland Stag
2016 Giant Defy Advanced Pro 0
vintagerando is offline  
Old 06-29-19, 05:47 PM
  #73  
MauriceMoss
Senior Member
 
MauriceMoss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 347

Bikes: None in ridable condition

Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 14 Posts
Most of the elements of this frame were employed by multiple British marques, so pinning this one down might be difficult.


I don’t have an exact match for this mystery bike, but here are pics of individual elements found on various frames, all from the same marque (I’m trying something new with the pics, so bear with me):



Nervex Pro lugs, “rib” (or rim/lip) removed:





Sloping fork crown:





Double chainstay cable stops:








Double cable brazeons on the downtube:





Brake bridge:





Wraparound seat stays:





Stay ends:




5 digit serial number on bottom bracket shell, stamped parallel with the drive side edge:




All the compare pics above are from Mercian built frames.

As I mentioned at the beginning, I don’t have an exact match, so all this doesn’t necessarily mean we’re looking at a Mercian here, but there are enough similarities here to warrant further investigation.

You will find Mercians with:

  • Full chrome finish
  • Sloping fork crowns
  • Nervex lugs, both with the “rib” or “lip” trimmed and not
  • Double downtube brazeons as on the mystery frame
  • Double cable stops on the chainstay, as on the mystery frame
  • Wraparound seat stays
  • 5 digit frame number on the bottom bracket shell, stamped along the drive side edge
  • No head badge rivet holes
  • The same style brake bridge as on the mystery bike

“RVM” stamp: I have no clue what it signifies; never seen one like it. As @unworthy1 mentioned earlier, it looks like it was probably stamped later as it looks more rusted out than the frame number. This would point to it perhaps being PO’s initials.

EDA bottom bracket shell: Use of EDA bottom bracket shells by Mercian is an unknown here that might throw a wrench into the spokes. I’m not a Mercian expert, so if anyone knows more about this, please share the knowledge.

Serial number: If a Mercian, it would point to the frame being made in 1969.


Luckily Mercian is still in business and active online, so you might be able to get a confirmation one way or the other. Would love to hear what their official response is.


As always, this assessment could be way off and we might be dealing with something completely different, but for the moment I’m leaning towards Mercian.
MauriceMoss is offline  
Likes For MauriceMoss:
Old 06-29-19, 06:28 PM
  #74  
cudak888 
www.theheadbadge.com
 
cudak888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 23,505

Bikes: http://www.theheadbadge.com

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 314 Post(s)
Liked 82 Times in 69 Posts
Now that @MauriceMoss has posted those excellent pictures, I'm rather more convinced than he is that we are looking at one.

I dare say the identical treatment (and spacing) of the derailer cable stop is enough of a smoking gun on its own. Combined with the double cable stops alone (as opposed to a clamp-on fitting) and it's difficult to say otherwise. The treatment of the wraparound stays is also dead-on identical, and while other builders may have achieved similar results, achieving identical results is another matter.

-Kurt
__________________
cudak888 is offline  
Old 06-29-19, 09:23 PM
  #75  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,244
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 348 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Yes! I think this is closer than ever to the solution, thanks to PROFESSOR Moss, again! If somebody can confirm that Mercian used EDA BB shells I'd say Moss has nailed it...bravo!
unworthy1 is offline  
Likes For unworthy1:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.