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Helmets cramp my style

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Helmets cramp my style

Old 05-14-08, 08:20 PM
  #3076  
John C. Ratliff
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
Sorry, just another note.

I find it quite odd that from someone who received a concussion while wearing his helmet, claimed the helmet prevented brain injury and suggested I need to study a bit more, it seems the entry you've suggested confirms what I've posted.
Closetbiker, you seem to think that a helmet has not worked if it lessens the injury potential in a crash situation, but the person still goes away with a concussion. A concussion is much better than a contusion. A contusion can be life-threatening, as can a subdural hemotoma and a skull fracture. If the helmet prevented the worse injury, has it failed by your standard if a person does have a concussion?

For the record, I had a concussion, was semi-conscious with memory loss for about 45 minutes, and had virtigo for the weekend which lessened over the next months. The CT scan came back negative for intra-cranial bleeding, contusion, subdural hematoma, etc. I was able to get back to cycling about two months after the accident, and commuting about three months post-accident. There is no residual damage to my brain, and the fact that I am currently in a MSPH program and have made some "A" grades shows that the neural functions are still there. The trauma doctor told me that it would have been much worse without the helmet. I do have a residual lump on my right hip, and had loss of sensation there for years afterward; the hemotoma on my hip had to be drained every week for over a month, and the hip was the second body part to impact the ground (my head was the first). This is direct evidence that if I had not been wearing a helmet an extremely hazardous brain injury would have been highly probable.

John
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Old 05-14-08, 08:46 PM
  #3077  
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
Closetbiker, you seem to think that a helmet has not worked if it lessens the injury potential in a crash situation, but the person still goes away with a concussion. A concussion is much better than a contusion. A contusion can be life-threatening, as can a subdural hemotoma and a skull fracture. If the helmet prevented the worse injury, has it failed by your standard if a person does have a concussion?

For the record, I had a concussion, was semi-conscious with memory loss for about 45 minutes, and had virtigo for the weekend which lessened over the next months. The CT scan came back negative for intra-cranial bleeding, contusion, subdural hematoma, etc. I was able to get back to cycling about two months after the accident, and commuting about three months post-accident. There is no residual damage to my brain, and the fact that I am currently in a MSPH program and have made some "A" grades shows that the neural functions are still there. The trauma doctor told me that it would have been much worse without the helmet. I do have a residual lump on my right hip, and had loss of sensation there for years afterward; the hemotoma on my hip had to be drained every week for over a month, and the hip was the second body part to impact the ground (my head was the first). This is direct evidence that if I had not been wearing a helmet an extremely hazardous brain injury would have been highly probable.

John
The bold part is where you go wrong. You really have no way way of knowing what would have happened without the helmet. You believe that it protected you, but there are people who believe the moon landing was faked.

IMO, people commonly and severely underestimate the resilience of the brain and skull.
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Old 05-14-08, 09:38 PM
  #3078  
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John and I really do agree much more than we disagree, and not the least amongst our agreements is that a helmet as a piece of PPE, is the least effective means of injury prevention.

Take a look at this video and consider, this particular area has amongst the least amount of head injuries to cyclists in the world

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj8uz...eature=related

Too much attention is being paid to one of the least effective means to achieve an end and much of that effort detracts from what should be the real goal. Cyclist safety. That doesn't necessarily mean a cyclist should make wearing a helmet a priority.

Last edited by closetbiker; 05-15-08 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 05-15-08, 08:14 AM
  #3079  
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Originally Posted by Six jours
The bold part is where you go wrong. You really have no way way of knowing what would have happened without the helmet. You believe that it protected you, but there are people who believe the moon landing was faked.

IMO, people commonly and severely underestimate the resilience of the brain and skull.
and it speaks to how people who want to believe something will grasp at anything that seems to confirm their belief even if there is ample examples of the same thing that throw that belief into question.

The mechanisms of brain injury are not consistent with John's belief and if we're pulling out personal anecdotes here, my wife's cousin and a friend at work told me a story each about their concussion's they received while riding their bikes. Both stories were remarkably alike except for one difference. One had a helmet on and one didn't. The one who was wearing a helmet is absolutely convinced the helmet did it's job and saved him from worse injury, while the one who wasn't wearing a helmet thought maybe if he had been wearing one he wouldn't have received the injury he did. It's impossible to reason with either about it because they are emotionally involved, but if one is detached and understands the mechanisms of concussion and what the limits of a helmet are, it's a different situation to determine what difference a helmet makes in their scenario.
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Old 05-15-08, 08:28 AM
  #3080  
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That's a cool video. I wish ******* were more like that. Thing is, I kind of like being one of the only guys biking on a rainy day, all the people in cars give me looks, like that guy is crazy, or I wish I had that kind of motivation...etc. When you don't own a car, there's no choice. As for cycling safety, if people would ride with more awareness and more caution, the likelyhood of accident goes down. That's not to say that an accident won't happen. Amsterdam has a very cyclist friendly urban design with wide bike lanes, almost like another car lane by the looks of it. I only wish Amerrrika would make more of a transition to such a lifestyle. But the liberal goons over here would probably mandate wearing a helmet EVERYWHERE. Hey I don't want to wear a helmet for my one mile ride to the store to pick a few groceries. But no, they would make you wear one because it's safer, wah!
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Old 05-15-08, 08:38 AM
  #3081  
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I don't know if they're liberal goons, just more like they're uninformed about a helmets role in reducing injury.

I think most areas that legislate helmet use do so because they think they will reduce serious injury and death. I doubt they believe that people should be forced to do something against their will simply to reduce cuts, bumps and bruises.

In areas that have rejected proposed legislation of helmets, there has been the recognition that it's the impacts with motor vehicles that have caused the serious injury and deaths to cyclists and that bicycle helmets are ineffective in such impacts.

If people were serious about reducing injury, they'd clamp down on irresponsible road use but in America (and up here in Canada and I'm guessing Australia) that's not going to fly because then drivers will start to complain about how good they drive and they'll claim they don't need further restrictions on their behavior so instead, they look to other "solutions" that don't help much.

Last edited by closetbiker; 05-15-08 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 05-15-08, 10:25 AM
  #3082  
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One of the shameful things about this argument -- and here I won't make any comments regarding either side's propositions -- is that some of the participants are slinging mud. That's just a lousy way to argue: the person under attack is smeared and the attacker's argument is weakened. Comparing people to nazis and making comments like, "and people believe the moon landing was faked" ... Come on.

At least John isn't going out of his way to insult you guys. And from the recent posts I've read neither is ClosetBiker.
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Old 05-15-08, 11:57 AM
  #3083  
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I guess we each have a different perspective on that.

I'd say John has been tremendously insulting at times, has gone out of his way to personalize the issue, has posted complete fabrications and labeled some as being anti-helmet when it's clear they're not.

I'm sure I've offended others too, but it's all in how someone reads things into a comment rather than the intention with which the comment was delivered.

Keep in mind this is just a message board. Don't take things in and let them get too close to the heart and you'll live a little easier.

Last edited by closetbiker; 05-15-08 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 05-15-08, 03:25 PM
  #3084  
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Originally Posted by GreenPremier
Amsterdam has a very cyclist friendly urban design with wide bike lanes, almost like another car lane by the looks of it.
It's a bit of a misconception that Holland has superb cycling facilities. They do have some, but not everywhere. Yet riding everywhere is safe and easy. This is because of the positive attitude towards cyclists by motorists (in part because the majority of motorists are also cyclists), and also because the rules of the road state that if a car hits a bike it is the car drivers fault, regardless of what the cyclist was doing.

(I vaguely remember reading somewhere that since Holland started introducing more cycle lanes and facilities accident rates between bikes and cars had got worse. But I can't remember where I read it, and it could well be anecdotal and / or a only a correlation rather than causation. )
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Old 05-15-08, 04:47 PM
  #3085  
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Originally Posted by drumthebenway
One of the shameful things about this argument -- and here I won't make any comments regarding either side's propositions -- is that some of the participants are slinging mud. That's just a lousy way to argue: the person under attack is smeared and the attacker's argument is weakened. Comparing people to nazis and making comments like, "and people believe the moon landing was faked" ... Come on.

At least John isn't going out of his way to insult you guys. And from the recent posts I've read neither is ClosetBiker.
This from the guy who opened his argument by calling non-helmet users stupid.
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Old 05-15-08, 06:44 PM
  #3086  
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Originally Posted by Six jours
The bold part is where you go wrong. You really have no way way of knowing what would have happened without the helmet. You believe that it protected you, but there are people who believe the moon landing was faked.

IMO, people commonly and severely underestimate the resilience of the brain and skull.
When my head hit the pavement harder than my hip, and my hip had permanent damage from skin torn away from the underlying tissue, a huge hemotoma which had to be drained for over a month, and still has that residual lump, this direct evidence says that the helmet mitigated the most dire effects of the hit my head took to the pavement.

By the way, I was on one of the Apollo 13 rescue crews in the USAF (it came down in the wrong ocean ), and it wasn't faked.

Believe what you want, the evidence points in a different direction, Six jours.

John
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Old 05-15-08, 06:52 PM
  #3087  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
John and I really do agree much more than we disagree, and not the least amongst our agreements is that a helmet as a piece of PPE, is the least effective means of injury prevention.

Take a look at this video and consider, this particular area has amongst the least amount of head injuries to cyclists in the world

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj8uz...eature=related

Too much attention is being paid to one of the least effective means to achieve an end and much of that effort detracts from what should be the real goal. Cyclist safety. That doesn't necessarily mean a cyclist should make wearing a helmet a priority.
Closetbiker is correct in what he says here. I simply feel that the bicycle helmet has more use than does he.

Concerning the You Tube feature on Holland, we could only wish for something like that. Here, we have more than a few uptight, road-raged drivers who feel that they can do anything and get away with it. We also do not have the numbers of cyclists shown here. If we did, it would be another story. Today, it is almost 90 degrees out for the first time this spring, and people are out and walking, driving, and a few bicycling. On my ride home from work today, I probably saw a dozen or so cyclist; if this had been Holland, the number would have been in the hundreds or more. Too bad too, as I have a coworker with probably diabetes, just diagnosed with peripheral neuropathy, and about 30 or more pounds overweight. Too many people are buying the auto industry's ads about how sexy cars are. Maybe someone should show that other side Closetbiker was talking about.

John
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Old 05-15-08, 09:17 PM
  #3088  
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
When my head hit the pavement harder than my hip, and my hip had permanent damage from skin torn away from the underlying tissue, a huge hemotoma which had to be drained for over a month, and still has that residual lump, this direct evidence says that the helmet mitigated the most dire effects of the hit my head took to the pavement.

By the way, I was on one of the Apollo 13 rescue crews in the USAF (it came down in the wrong ocean ), and it wasn't faked.

Believe what you want, the evidence points in a different direction, Six jours.

John
So your head and hip were wired with accelerometers at the time? Or are you just guessing?
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Old 05-15-08, 09:31 PM
  #3089  
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what I don't get is how someone thinks a slight reduction to an impact to the outside of a head determines the movement of the internal structures within. It's not even necessary to receive a blow to your head for the internal structures to twist within.
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Old 05-15-08, 10:24 PM
  #3090  
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For me, it's the folks who claim that even the slightest amount of damage to a helmet indicates a "save" from severe injury or death. There was one gal in particular who frequented the SoCal forum and was convinced her helmet saved her life because, after a fall, she found a pebble embedded in the foam. "Imagine how much force that took!!!" was her story. She seemed like a nice-enough person, so I refrained from pointing out that I could stick a pebble into foam with finger pressure but don't have nearly enough strength to force one into my skull.

Folks seem to think bike helmets have almost magical life-saving properties.
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Old 05-15-08, 10:47 PM
  #3091  
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Originally Posted by Six jours
For me, it's the folks who claim that even the slightest amount of damage to a helmet indicates a "save" from severe injury or death. There was one gal in particular who frequented the SoCal forum and was convinced her helmet saved her life because, after a fall, she found a pebble embedded in the foam. "Imagine how much force that took!!!" was her story. She seemed like a nice-enough person, so I refrained from pointing out that I could stick a pebble into foam with finger pressure but don't have nearly enough strength to force one into my skull.

Folks seem to think bike helmets have almost magical life-saving properties.
Okay, Six jours, you're on--take a pebble and stick it in the foam with finger power only. I just tried it on an old helmet, and got an indentation, but no "sticking." Remember, a pebble is a rounded rock ground upon by water, so that it does not have sharp corners. So find an old helmet, and stick it (the pebble) to it with finger power. I think you are going to be surprised.

John
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Old 05-15-08, 10:56 PM
  #3092  
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
Okay, Six jours, you're on--take a pebble and stick it in the foam with finger power only. I just tried it on an old helmet, and got an indentation, but no "sticking." Remember, a pebble is a rounded rock ground upon by water, so that it does not have sharp corners. So find an old helmet, and stick it (the pebble) to it with finger power. I think you are going to be surprised.

John

Is it cheating to use my thumb, or will you consider it a "finger"?
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Old 05-15-08, 11:07 PM
  #3093  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
what I don't get is how someone thinks a slight reduction to an impact to the outside of a head determines the movement of the internal structures within. It's not even necessary to receive a blow to your head for the internal structures to twist within.
Closetbiker,

It's the principal of deceleration from physics that is in play here. This "slight reduction" can be the difference between the brain impacting the inside of the skull and other internal bony structures of the head with sufficient force to injure it or not, or to lessen the extent of the injuries. These injuries can be a tear (contusion or laceration) the brain structure, or hit the inside hard enough on the impact side for a subdural hemotoma, or a wave reaction that hits the opposite side of the skull for a contracoupe impact. The crushing of the foam material can be enough to reduce these forces to within survivable ranges. That is what we are talking about, and I really don't understand why this has to be repeatedly pointed out to you?

The principal is the same one that allowed the US Mars Pathfinder spacecraft to successfully land on Mars, using air cushions. The force is spread over a wider area, thereby lessoning the force applied directly to any one area of either the skull or the spacecraft, and the cushioning allows deceleration to occur within survivable limits for either the person with a helmet, or a spacecraft with sensitive instruments. See:

https://www.space.com/scienceastronom...gs_000707.html

Your last statement is true, and is especially apparent in "shaken baby syndrome." The forces are such that the brain moves violently within the skull, and suffers brain contusions and or lacerations, or worse. This kind of shaking is a repeated shaking (for shaken baby syndrome) which sets up resonances (waves in the brain matter that hit other waves, forming a much higher single wave) which pile up and strike the internal structures of the skull. These kinds of forces would be more likely to occur in an un-helmeted than in a helmeted individual if it is from striking the ground precisely because the forces of deceleration are greater in un-helmeted cyclists.

John
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Old 05-15-08, 11:11 PM
  #3094  
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Originally Posted by Six jours

Is it cheating to use my thumb, or will you consider it a "finger"?
I tried with two thumbs, and could not do it. But then again, I'm just an ol' man. Try it and see.

By the way, I tried it on an old Bell helmet with a plastic shell (not on the shell, but only on the foam).

John

Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 05-15-08 at 11:21 PM.
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Old 05-15-08, 11:15 PM
  #3095  
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Originally Posted by Six jours
So your head and hip were wired with accelerometers at the time? Or are you just guessing?
No, I didn't have accelerometers on at the time; took them off just before impact because they were too hot (just kidding).

This comes from looking at the injuries I did sustain, the probability (again from an analysis of the injuries and the damage to my bicycle, which was minimal) that my head impacted first, the severe injury to my hip (no breaks, just skin separated from underlying tissue, and I mean completely separated, but without a tear completely through in the skin, just road rash), and the helmet damage. Had my head suffered the same kind of hemotoma that my hip suffered, I don't think I'd be writing this right now.

By the way, the hip damage could have been mitigated by using hip protection, like is used by football players routinely. We had a very nice tree-jump suit in the USAF Pararescue and in US Forest Service Smokejumping that would preclude this kind of injury to my hip, but is pretty impractical for cycling.

John

Last edited by John C. Ratliff; 05-15-08 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 05-15-08, 11:24 PM
  #3096  
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I can't find any "approved" pebbles. So I'll get back to you.

Your hip tends to have your complete body weight behind it. That is to say, there's nothing allowing your hip to flex out of the way and minimize an impact. Your hip is also not hard-wired to protect itself at any cost. Your brain is willing to let it "take the hit". Your brain, however, is going to look out for number one and do everything possible to minimize forces at the skull. And your neck, of course, allows the head to move relatively freely, which itself minimizes impact forces.

Short version: extrapolating impact forces to your head by looking at the severity of a hip injury is silly.
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Old 05-15-08, 11:39 PM
  #3097  
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It has been quite some time since I posted my photos of that helmet. Six jours has been saying that helmets that have saved lives with just a pebble sticking in them really are questionable stories. I think that my helmet will show a bit more damage than that. Remember that my head was in it, and that the helmet did completely fail, but not before it had done its main job. I did receive a secondary hit, which caused three staples to be applied to the top of my head's laceration. The funny thing was that, when I pressed on the center staple, I got vertigo. I told the doctor this on the Monday exam (the accident occurred on Friday, which is why I don't ride on Fridays anymore), he said "The staples are coming out," and removed all three of them. Here are the photos:


This is how the helmet looked after I took it out of the plastic bag I received it in from the hospital.


I taped it together so that we could see where the fractures occurred.


This shows the helmet from the bottom, with the foam thicknesses after impact described.


This was the foam piece over the right ear and temple area, and shows dramatically the amount of compression that took place.

John
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Old 05-15-08, 11:44 PM
  #3098  
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As it happens, I had a pretty nasty crash Saturday, with a 25+ MPH impact with the road: A Picture paints a thousand words. My helmet did a nice job of attenuating the impact. The interior is pretty busted up, but better the helmet than my skull







Didn't help my hip or shoulder much, I'm in a sling, and temporarily on a cane, but given how hard I hit, the Dr pretty much told me I'd be in the hospital in the Neurotrauma unit if I wasn't wearing one with a likely skull fracture and likely brain injury. Not as nasty looking as John's helmet, but in both cases, I think our helmets saved us from serious head injuries.
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Old 05-16-08, 01:59 AM
  #3099  
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Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
Closetbiker,

It's the principal of deceleration from physics that is in play here. This "slight reduction" can be the difference between the brain impacting the inside of the skull and other internal bony structures of the head with sufficient force to injure it or not, or to lessen the extent of the injuries...

Your last statement is true, and is especially apparent in "shaken baby syndrome." ... These kinds of forces would be more likely to occur in an un-helmeted than in a helmeted individual if it is from striking the ground precisely because the forces of deceleration are greater in un-helmeted cyclists.

John
John, you blanked out. You received a concussion and we all know the mechanisms of concussion, don't we? It's got nothing to do with the brain impacting the inside of the skull. That's a different type of brain injury. In a concussion, an angular movement turns the head on an axis other than its center of gravity. The forces from the injury disrupt the normal cellular activities and that this disruption produces the loss of consciousness often seen in concussion. It's the way the head had been turned that caused the concussion. Your helmet did not stop this from happening and how could it possibly do this? You're not paying too much attention if you're claiming non-helmeted victims receive these at a greater rate than helmeted ones. It's a common story to observe concussion among helmeted victims.

Last edited by closetbiker; 05-16-08 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 05-16-08, 06:24 AM
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drumthebenway
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Originally Posted by Six jours
This from the guy who opened his argument by calling non-helmet users stupid.
I absolutely did not call non-helmet users stupid. I addressed the confusion a while back and you acknowledged that. Once again, libel.
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