Miliolid

I've been trying to set my HR zones for my Garmin Fenix 6, but can't quite figure out the right ranges. There are 5 zones. I have a few health conditions, mostly undiagnosed as of yet due to which I can't wear a chest strap not do a maxHR or lactate threshold test. I did have a cardiopulmonary exercise test the other day to figure out what's going on, but it was aborted too early as the technician thought my HR was too high (I told them!), and no lactate was tested due to a mess-up. The interpretation of this has left me even more puzzled, and I wonder how to use the raw data for setting HR zones and for training.

Test:
VT2 at 161bpm according to doctor
VO2max at 28.6

own observations:
It's impossible to run, nor to cycle faster below 161bpm. After a warmup, from this point my breathing becomes relaxed and I can go on for about 8km running or equivalent cycling and then I run out of energy and bonk (that's one of the issues), no apparent lactic acid problems here.
My breathing becomes chaotic and very quick above roughly 180bpm and I can't keep this up for more than 5 minutes. Massive apparent lactic acid buildup. Muscles just stop working and it feels like my body doesn't get the oxygen it needs.
Pretty much all exercise other than a slow, very relaxed cycle ride or walking takes place between 160-182bpm, usually in the upper part, regardless of how fit I am.
In the past I attempted HRmax tests in spinning classes but never made it to the end of the 'all out' intervals. Highest HR there was 202. I've seen 204 in the past, and I guess my actual max is still higher. HR is not out of control but comes down quickly as soon as I slow down, and goes up as I speed up again. I don't think this is POTs.
220-age would put my max at 173, hence the need to set custom zones.
VO2max from the exercise test corresponds to my own observations. But I can't go 'all out' for more than 5 minutes or so as my muscles simply give up.
-> based on my own observations I would say my VT2 is at around 180bpm, not at 161. There's also a strong infliction point in the data.
-> But how would that correspond to the 5 HR zones that Garmin uses?

Can anyone help?
I've attached some plots from the exercise test, and can generate other plots when needed. VT(test) or stippled line is interpretation by doctor, VT (observation) my own guess. Peak(ish) where the test was aborted, but I could have gone on.
First plot: Doctor interpretation, second: my attempt at tying own observations to VT2. Third: something I've been playing with as I'm totally dependent on carbs and crash if I eat too much protein or fats (not relevant here), and mostly a sumary

Quiglesnbits

It sounds like you have a complicated story and need expert advice in real life.

Miliolid

I just want to work out, set my watch properly, and follow a more structured programme. But I can't make sense of the bloody data. The doctor just went: I'm a pulmologist, Jim, not a sports doctor.

What makes this so annoying is that everyone seems to use different definitions.

asgelle

What program do you want to follow? Every one that I'm aware of includes directions to test and set zones. There is no one, universal prescription for where the boundaries fall. Furthermore, there's no need to be overly precise; there are no sudden transitions as you cross from one to another. That said, it seems pretty clear from what you wrote that your VT1 is around 160 bpm and VT2 around 180. Start there and adjust as necessary after you see how it goes.

Miliolid

Thanks a lot. Yeah, I'm pretty sure my VTs are as you say, and that the doctor is wrong ("Lady, I never see women get as much watts as you achieved. Don't make yourself even fitter. My interpretation is correct and it was right to abort the test" Ugh!). Still odd that I'm pretty much 100% on carb energy from 160 onward, but that's something I'll have to discuss going forward. For cycling I'm not yet sure what to use. I found some interesting training plans for running that I can use with my watch that don't seem to punish me for not doing 4min/km intervals. But for that I need to understand the garmin definition of training zones. The description in the manual sounds like the use top zone 3 for VT2, but also set lactate threshold at top zone 4, which makes no sense to me. For running I want to train for a half marathon, which I'm sure I'll manage with lots of gel and time. Cycling: just be able to have a decent power output for a bit longer than that short stretch of cyclepath over the dike with wind from behind.

Carbonfiberboy 

VT1 and VT2 are actually pretty easy to define in the field:
https://www.acefitness.org/fitness-c...2-and-vo2-max/
https://acewebcontent.azureedge.net/...VT_Testing.pdf

I suggest trying this:
For VT1, warm up for 15'-30' while wearing a HRM or using a power meter. From an easy pace, gradually increase your effort. At an easy pace, your breathing will be slow and rather shallow. As you increase the effort, your breathing will get deeper, but still remain fairly slow. As you continue to increase the effort, you should notice a point where the slow breathing rate increases. Below that point is called "conversational" in that you can speak in full sentences. Another way to tell that point is that beyond it you can no longer recite the alphabet comfortably. That point is VT1. Go back and forth with the effort a few times until you think you have it. Note HR and power.

For VT2, again gradually increase effort, either on a trainer or a long hill. Keep increasing the effort until deep and fast breathing is no longer poassible and you begin to pant. Note HR and power. Drop back again into the deep and fast breathing and then increase to panting a couple of times. VT2 is where you begin to pant. Your LTHR and FTP should be a little below VT2. You use that LTHR and FTP to set your zones, using the many formulas to be found on the web. https://joefrielsblog.com/a-quick-gu...setting-zones/

Of course you can complete a test for LTHR and FTP, but the above will get you close enough to use in training until you get around to more formal testing.

The doctor sounds distinctly unhelpful.

Iride01 

Are you just new to doing anything that requires high cardio effort? IE. Cycling?

You can't run or cycle as fast as possible without bonking or simply running out of energy. You have to find out what effort you can maintain constantly and ride till you are called to come home. If you just arbitrarily set zones on your device and use those, you'll figure out which zone or HR you can maintain forever simply by trying the next zone lower than you failed at the ride before.

It helps in discussion though if your zones are set based on something. FTHR or LTHR is the best way to set zone by HR in my opinion. If you have a power meter, that's even a better way to set zones, use FTP to set them. This tells both.....

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/learn/...setting-zones/


Not sure your concern about not being able to cycle faster below 161 bpm. Is that the HR that you start to tire in? Well the way to increase your speed is ride more. Do both very easy rides and hard rides. Rides that have times you go easy and times you go hard.

Results take time. Years and mileage.


Medical tests for stress and other stuff, disappointingly for me end long before I even feel stressed. They have their own markers they look at and are only gauging your health, not your ability to ride or run fast.


Curious as to why you can't wear a chest strap. Is it something you can share?

Miliolid

Sorry, I had no internet for a few days. I hate leaving threads unanswered

Hmm for this this doesn't quite work out. At the beginning of a workout my breathing is heavy and it's difficult to speak. Once I get over 160 things get easy and I can easily speak, and even sing to music. The panting and not being able to speak anymore is true for 180. I think VT1 is difficult to define for me because there's some kind of dysautonomia going on, but not one that speeds up the heart like POTs, but rather the opposite together with blood pooling. This might actually be the reason why it's impossible to do any sport below 160 for me. But this is under investigation, so we'll see.

But excellent advice! I'll get going with the link, and will do a few test runs and rides to see how this goes. Zones for both seem to be pretty much the same for me. Thus that's an advantage.

caloso

If your cardiologist thinks it's safe: I'd just do it based on LTHR. It's pretty straightforward. After you warm up, do a 30 minute time trial. That means as hard as you can go for the full 30. Take highest 20 min average (it will likely be the last 20 minutes) and use that as your LTHR.

Miliolid

Many questions... I'm adding numbers.

1. Running: for 8 years or so. Cyling for nearly 3. Lived in countries before where cycling was too dangerous.

2. No, I can't. There has always been the moment where I bonked, even when strolling through a museum. Give me more protein and fats at the cost of carbs and I crash. If I get stuck in a meeting at the wrong moment I crash. Sent me on a 3 week vacation with just a bit less carbs every day than I need and I feel sick every single day and don't have the energy to do anything. This has nothing to do with blood sugar. I don;t know with that. It seems like I can't get sufficient energy out of those macros. I've been dealing with this for 35 years at least. Never got worse, never improved regardless of how hard I tried. And see above: I've been running for close to 8 years, and have not managed to increase activity duration.

3. Cool, thanks a lot. Unfortunately not a power meter. That's way above my budget.

4. Nope, all activity I do ends up above 160 for some reason. All apart from cycling to the supermarket or walking in flat terrain. No idea why. But my breathing becomes calm and I feel relaxed and good once I get above 160. Thus...

5. Ehlers Danlos. Ever dislodged/ shifted your ribs? Or got rib tissue inflammations? That happens when I wear a chest strap and breathe with it. It sucks.

Iride01 

1) How often per week do you ride and for how long each ride?

2) Don't quite follow the mixed thoughts.... fats, proteins, meeting? While out riding I only consume carbs. It's in my bottles. Any thing else for really long rides (3-1/2 plus hours) is just a snack and still mostly carbs.

3) Me neither, yet. Few that I'd consider are in my price range, plenty over my price range at the 900 to 1200 dollar range that I'd be happy with. I am hoping that 4iiii gets some cranks my size in stock, but so far everthing but. My 165 mm 52/36 in the less expensive 105 or Ultegra seems to be rare. I'd rather not have to send them my own and do without for a time.

4) My average HR for my last three 1.5 hour rides is just under 160 bpm. So what's the issue? Are you actually having problems or are you just thinking your HR is too unusual?

5) oh! I learned something new. Wish it were world peace and harmony though. <grin>

Other thoughts...

You do hydrate adequately during your rides? I take a couple swigs on the bottle every ten minutes. 24 fl oz. lasts me less than an hour. Though that might be way to much for some that don't sweat like I do.

Carbonfiberboy 

Ah! Hypermobile EDS. That explains everything, except that I don't think any of us here know enough to be of much help. Basically autonomic dysfunction, so your HR is going to be weird. Once you get over 160, the breathing thing for VT1 and VT2 should still work? It's weird to have only a 20 HR useful band. None of the usual formulas will work for you to define zones. Try using the 3 zone model:
1) Anything below the onset of more rapid breathing, i.e. being able to recite the alphabet.
2) In between 1 and 3
3) Anything above where one starts panting.

In the 3 zone model the 5 zone model's zones distribute as follows:
1) 5 zone model:1 and 2
2) 5 zone model: 3 and 4
3) 5 zone model: 5 and up

That's fairly simple and you don't need a power meter or HR to know what zone you're in.

canklecat

TBH, with a health challenge like EDS, I'd do what I already do with my Hashimoto's -- wing it and do my workouts based on how I feel that day.

My feels-like gauge is permanently broken. If I relied solely on metrics like heart rate, heart rate variability, etc., I'd miss potentially optimal workout days because my numbers didn't look right, and overdo it on days when the numbers say I should be at peak fitness but feel like refried crap.

Some of my best rides and runs came on days when I woke up feeling terrible and didn't get much better for hours. And on days when all the metrics said I should be optimal I could barely pedal or run faster than a kid on a Big Wheel.

So I just go out, take it easy for 15-30 minutes, try a short moderately hard effort of 30-60 seconds, slow to take a breather and see how I feel, check the heart rate to see if the peaks and valleys are responding more or less appropriately. If everything looks good I'll push a little more. Some days I'll do fartlek (Swedish for "speed play") style workouts: sort of an informal -- playful as the name implies -- approach to intervals, without fixed duration/distance for maximum efforts followed by easier efforts. Some days I'll do tempo. Some days I just piddle pedal or jog and put in the time and miles. Of all the training approaches I've tried I prefer the fartlek approach. It's mostly associated with long distance running, but it applies to cycling as well. Some spirited informal group rides are pretty similar to the fartlek approach, with a mostly zone 2 effort and intermittent short sprints corresponding with popular Strava segments. It's not a bad approach to gradually building fitness.

Most of all I just try to enjoy every ride and run. If I obsessed over metrics I'd probably quit. I haven't yet found a shake and bake training regimen that accommodates an autoimmune disorder and screwed up metabolism.

Regarding diet, for most folks there's no valid reason to avoid carbs as fuel for workouts, especially harder workouts, or longer mostly steady workouts with occasional harder efforts. (Exceptions for folks with diabetes, etc., of course.)

Some folks can gradually adapt to sustained modest efforts without carbs, but it can take awhile to adapt. I started with the intermittent fasting approach, using the indoor trainer for an hour or so to see how I felt. I'd go 12 hour or so without eating, then just drink water or coffee before and during an easy to moderate trainer spin. When I was comfortable with that I'd try it outdoors. I always carry snacks for emergencies, but over a few years of gradually adapting I consume less of that stuff for easy to moderate rides. But I don't hesitate to pop a gel, energy bar or snarffle a donut at the convenience store if I'm feeling a twinge of bonkiness.

And I don't do any formal diet plan, no keto, etc., but I have gradually changed my diet to mostly meat and animal products because it suits my digestion best. I tried vegetarian and vegan alternatives for a year for protein but the experience was miserable. I cannot digest legumes and non-meat proteins properly, even with digestive enzymes and supplements. Some folks can. Just differences in genetics. So I try to limit my carbs to workout days as fuel, and mostly eat meat, eggs, dairy, cheese, etc., the rest of the time. It's not a formal or monkish approach, and I don't eliminate all vegetables and fruits as some friends have done. I use onions, mushrooms, etc., for variety in flavor and texture.

I avoid most meats, eggs, etc, just before a ride or run because good digestion and a serious workout don't go together. Takes me about 3-4 hours after a real meal before I feel peppy again. If I workout too soon after eating eggs, meat, etc., I feel sluggish and a bit barfy, especially with running. So usually, if I plan to ride or run immediately, I have coffee or iced coffee, a banana, maybe a Clif bar (energy bars and snacks with sugar alcohols like maltitol cause me digestion problems), and I'm good to go after maybe 15-30 minutes. If I plan to ride or run longer than a couple of hours I'll take more carb snacks -- gels, Clif bars, simple junk snacks like stroopwaffles individually packaged in Mylar wrappers because they're so thin and fit perfectly in a jersey pocket. I'm not too proud to enjoy a sugar bomb during a hard workout. And my water bottles usually have electrolytes and carbs. Easy to digest without stomach upset, especially on hot days when eating isn't appealing.

Works for me. For the past few years I'm always within 10 lbs of my optimal weight. If I planned to really sacrifice and prep for competition, I'd want to be at 145 lbs, the lowest weight I can carry in good health while being physically active. Usually I'm around 150-155, but I don't weigh myself often.

I'm never going to be on any podium in my age group. But I'm usually middle of the pack for cycling and running. That's good enough and I'm enjoying myself.

Miliolid

True. I need to be somewhat pragmatic here. I'm honestly not surprised the doc was confused by my data. LOL! I'll need to experiment with the lot a bit and see what works best. The 20 bpm band is indeed odd, also for me. But I've been working out for so many years now that I know this is my whole training band, and it kind of works for me. Hey, when I'm super fit I manage to cycle or run slowly in the lower end of that box. Otherwise I'm at the upper end even when going slow. Thus there's totally some variation

Miliolid

Oh yes, I'm sometimes surprised what's possible on either end of the spectrum. Me: I feel great today. Lets crush it! 10 minutes later: Ugh.. not working. Lets go home. Or the other way around. I also have hashimoto, but I make damn sure it's well controlled. My GP mostly gave up discussing it with me after I presented her with the facts a few times (just took a higher dose meds) and now just goes with how I feel. Fortunately, the EDS isn't too bad, but my ribs are really my weak spot. And my lower skeleton can be annoying. I'll gladly do a 100km ride, but I constantly have to shift my sitting position or my feet on the pedals. Thus no cleats for me. And don't get me started on rental bikes mostly consisting of heavy, super upright my-elbow-is-somewhere-behind-my-back Dutch bikes. Ugh! Just came back from a trip exploring two islands, one of which with a rental bike.

I've not done fartleks with cycling so far. Running I do try. It's not a big success though. But hey, every bit of variation is good.

I'm a natural scientist, and kind of obsessed with numbers and stats. It's seriously annoying sometimes.

I just don't seem to get much energy from other sources than carbs. When I get up in the morning and stroll 2km to my gp before breakfast then I just crash. It's totally unreal, but that's just normal for me. No activity other than siting behind the computer before breakfast for me. One of the working theory my doctor had that I might have some kind of mitochondrial disease as well, but we still don't have the evidence. We know that I get lactic acidoses when I go full out without warming up. And then the elevated lactate sticks around for days. Thus I'm generally not too keen to go over 180bpm or do harder intervals as things might go wrong. But that means I'm not getting better at higher effort either. Ugh. Bodies are weird. But if I want to train for a half marathon then I need to use gels, a ****load of them as I just manage 8km without additional energy, after my main meal.

I'm totally proud owner of the 5th last position on a few running races. That's seriously consistent I wanted to do a 180km cycle tour the year before last, but just before had a bike accident in town (dude before me crossed road when a car made forbidden u-turn, dude went back onto cycle path and into me) and couldn't even walk for a while, let along move my knee enough to get onto my bike

canklecat

Miliolid , with your determination and positive attitude you'll find something that works for you. Best wishes.

Carbonfiberboy 

My rule is "it is what it is." Pretty hard to argue with that. I also get acidosis after long hard efforts, though the heavy breathing is only for an hour or so in my case. No idea why. IMO, you're a real trouper. Way to go. I figure it's the only rational choice. Whatcha gonna do, roll over and die?

You *might* get better at hard efforts by doing long rides trying to stay below VT1.

Carbs work best for me during a ride if I use a liquid source and drink a swallow or two every 15'. Say you burn 300 Calories/hour at an easy pace. Figure half of that is carbs, so try to take in about 150 Calories/hour. See what that does.

Miliolid

Thanks a lot. And not to forget: A massive amount of cynicism

Miliolid

Thanks a lot I totally agree! And 'bodies are weird' is my standard thing to go with. *hugs* With slow cycling I can stay below VT1, thus that's something. Being a rather restless person, it's also not easy to stay below it but I'm trying my best. Plus I hike quite a bit, which I'm sure also counts for something. As long as there's no sanddune or similar little bump in the landscape around my HR remains low-ish anyway. I think I need to experiment with sweet drinks. Not too keen, but it might be the way forward here.

Iride01 

Cynicism or skepticism?

Miliolid

Cynicism, always cynicism. It's a professional prerequisite for me.

Carbonfiberboy 

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

Carbonfiberboy 

Two suggestion for the not sweet:
1) Hammer Nutrition's HEED.
2) A homebrew: 7 parts plain maltodextrin, 1 part flavored whey protein, by weight. 4 calories/gram of dry powder.
I use both for a bit of a change.
I also hike quite a bit, with my wife, which keeps my HR down quite nicely.

Iride01 

Hmm.....

I've always considered cynicism rather a dark thing that eats at you.

Skepticism however is healthy. <grin>