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Specialized invents the hybrid bike

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Specialized invents the hybrid bike

Old 05-10-20, 05:47 AM
  #51  
NumbersGuy
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Who wants a dropper post with modest range? That's like saying one wants to spend a lot of money on a gravel bike with modest tire size capability or modest cassette range or only modest savings in weight. One generally spends a lot on a 2021 model to get advanced, not modest gains.

The choice of using a dropper post comes with a penalty - it weighs more. The reason people choose to accept that penalty is because it provides an advantage - dropping the seat on steep descents. If you aren't doing steep descents then there is no real advantage to using a dropper and thus, only a penalty in added weight. People don't need a dropper to go up and down the average gravel road. They use them for steep descents, and that post restricts that ability for no good reason. If one has added the weight, make it worthwhile. Otherwise, as I said, it's just a nod to what a dropper post could be.

And of course the bike I showed is different than the brand new bike. It's a 90's era rigid mtb converted to single speed with a wide range cassette - basically what people are comparing the bike in question to.

Your other comments about black and white etc... are just uninformed jabs at someone you don't even know as a weak attempt to discredit an opinion other than yours. I probably ride more genres of bikes than most and often flex those genres for uses other than intended. Definitely not a black and white thinker. I merely said this bike tends to fall in between two genres in a way that doesn't allow it to perform as well as either. It's somewhat a generalist bike in an era where bikes are becoming more specialist in nature.

The same thing happened in the 90's when they made the original hybrid as a crossover between mtb's and road bikes. Not fondly remembered for performance.
More is not better. For a gravel bike, there is a point (varies by specific terrain) where going to a bigger tire is a detriment, not an improvement. By your logic, gravel bikes should have clearance for a 4.8" fat bike tire. Same with cassettes, sure a 10-50 has great range, but if you don't encounter hills where you require such a low gear, and the wider gaps between gears find you stuck choosing between slightly higher or lower of a gear than is ideal, then it's not such a benefit anymore. No manufacturer is putting a 150mm dropper on any gravel bike, for good reason, that's not the right application for that item.

So, exactly what genres does the Diverge fall in between that it doesn't perform as well as what you consider the specialist bikes? It is a gravel bike that's been ridden to victory at many of the biggest gravel races. That would seem to indicate it's extremely well designed for its genre.

Those hybrids must have been such a poor idea, since that category has grown dramatically to account for almost 40% of bicycles being sold and still gaining share.
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Old 05-10-20, 07:30 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet

The choice of using a dropper post comes with a penalty - it weighs more. The reason people choose to accept that penalty is because it provides an advantage - dropping the seat on steep descents. If you aren't doing steep descents then there is no real advantage to using a dropper and thus, only a penalty in added weight. People don't need a dropper to go up and down the average gravel road. They use them for steep descents, and that post restricts that ability for no good reason. If one has added the weight, make it worthwhile. Otherwise, as I said, it's just a nod to what a dropper post could be.

The same thing happened in the 90's when they made the original hybrid as a crossover between mtb's and road bikes. Not fondly remembered for performance.
I am not going to argue that a gravel bike should have a dropper post, but droppers are not just for steep descents. Not by a long-shot. But you do want more drop for steeper descents. Look at some of the gravel forums, and you will see that some people have been adding droppers to their bikes.

And the reason the so called “hybrids” that started popping up in the early days of mountain biking are often reviled is that they were mostly cheap, clunky pieces of crap. They were “comfort bikes”.

The bikes now being sold as “Gravel” are an entirely different animal from Comfort Bikes. As has been pointed out, in many ways they are more refined versions of early mtbs. One difference is that some are designed for drops, others for flat bar.
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Old 05-10-20, 08:52 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by NumbersGuy
Sure, the XTC will be able to perform well on gravel but it's not as if a heavy suspension fork and bigger, heavier tires are an advantage on gravel. I would expect a rider on the Diverge to ride away from you on a gravel road and only be wondering why you thought a heavier bike with unnecessary suspension travel and oversized tires would be better. Another person with a bike that looks kinda similar who can't grasp that the target market for gravel bikes doesn't want the "advantages" you think your bike has and certainly don't want the clear disadvantages it comes with.
Nonsense! My fork has a remote lockout, most serious XC mtb bikes today will have remote suspension lockout. Currently, I'm running 2.2" tires, but I could also size down the tires if so desired. My bike as configured weighs just about 20 lbs, so that's about 1 pound more than a Diverge Carbon Pro. And considering how much more capable the XTC is on single- and double-track, and bumpy & fast fireroad, then that 1 pound difference means nothing. Unless you just want to drone around in gravel all day long, it's more fun to hit the flowy single- or double-tracks when there are some.

and the dropper post, oh boy, for gravel? let's see how long before that thing starts to rattle and annoy the crap outta you.
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Old 05-10-20, 09:46 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
Nonsense! My fork has a remote lockout, most serious XC mtb bikes today will have remote suspension lockout. Currently, I'm running 2.2" tires, but I could also size down the tires if so desired. My bike as configured weighs just about 20 lbs, so that's about 1 pound more than a Diverge Carbon Pro. And considering how much more capable the XTC is on single- and double-track, and bumpy & fast fireroad, then that 1 pound difference means nothing. Unless you just want to drone around in gravel all day long, it's more fun to hit the flowy single- or double-tracks when there are some.

and the dropper post, oh boy, for gravel? let's see how long before that thing starts to rattle and annoy the crap outta you.
Sure, you can stick a set of 42s on your bike... but then it is going to suck on single track. And if they both have 42s, honestly it would be a wash as to which was better for singletrack: I may well take a dropper over a suspension fork.

Bit of a moot point, though, because in the real world, gravel bikes are far more likely to be splitting duty between pavement and gravel than single-track and gravel.

BTW, my 15-year old dropper post neither rattles nor does it annoy the crap out of me.
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Old 05-10-20, 09:54 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
Nonsense! My fork has a remote lockout, most serious XC mtb bikes today will have remote suspension lockout. Currently, I'm running 2.2" tires, but I could also size down the tires if so desired. My bike as configured weighs just about 20 lbs, so that's about 1 pound more than a Diverge Carbon Pro. And considering how much more capable the XTC is on single- and double-track, and bumpy & fast fireroad, then that 1 pound difference means nothing. Unless you just want to drone around in gravel all day long, it's more fun to hit the flowy single- or double-tracks when there are some.

and the dropper post, oh boy, for gravel? let's see how long before that thing starts to rattle and annoy the crap outta you.
The point is that a gravel bike isn't trying to take the place of or have all the capability of an XC mountain bike. Contrary to your preferences, there are plenty of riders who do want to spend their time riding on gravel, and that's what gravel bikes are designed for. Your personal preference to not focus on gravel riding seems to be poor reasoning for why your bike would perform better than a gravel bike for gravel riding.
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Old 05-10-20, 11:45 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by NumbersGuy
The point is that a gravel bike isn't trying to take the place of or have all the capability of an XC mountain bike. Contrary to your preferences, there are plenty of riders who do want to spend their time riding on gravel, and that's what gravel bikes are designed for. Your personal preference to not focus on gravel riding seems to be poor reasoning for why your bike would perform better than a gravel bike for gravel riding.
THIS^^^^

I have zero need for the bike I use for gravel riding to handle single track.

Further, after years of trying to find what works best on single-track and roads (gravel is “road” in my book), I’ve come to the conclusion that I can mess with tires, suspension (or lack thereof) all I want, but one thing I can’t get around is the fact that the cockpit setup that is best for singltack vs roads (including gravel) are very much at odds with each other. Any setup that I find optimal for grinding out 25+ miles on gravel is going to be a serious handicap on single-track, and vice versa.
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Old 05-10-20, 12:23 PM
  #57  
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There once was a time when I rode my 10spd on/over EVERYTHING just like one pair of running shoes for ALL sports (I played as a kid).
Having more choices today is not a bad thing.....as long as my bank account can handle it
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Old 05-10-20, 06:03 PM
  #58  
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If you're not using a dropper for the advantage of lowering the seat (COG) on descents then what exactly are you using it for? Bunching your legs up a bit so your quads can get cramped?

And why the narrow range? Of course you may not want to be able to put 4.5" tires on a gravel bike (no need to resort to hyperbole) but why would you buy a new bike that could only take say... 30mm tires, which is what that narrow range dropper is in comparison.

It costs nothing to have a wider range dropper, once you decide to add one, just as it costs nothing to have more tire clearance once you redesign the frame.

Arguing for limited range when you can have more without a penalty seems short sighted. It supposes one will only ever ride a narrow spectrum of terrain or not progress in skill before needing to buy... yet another new bike - or fall into the industries desire that you should buy an expensive bike for every niche and sub niche. Why not a gravel bike that handles a wider spectrum up front?

One area that may limit growth in that way is the flat bars. If one develops into faster/long riding with this bike, either via racing or by riding with a more experienced group, that's going to be a major retrofit to drops. If they started with shallow dirt drops, that are almost flats anyway, the swap to a more aggressive bar would be far simpler.

One could go either way with that idea IMO, flat or drops are a choice, but it's an example of how a design feature can limit the grow-ability of a bike with the rider. I see this bike being something a newer rider buys and then outgrows if they get more seriously into riding

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Old 05-10-20, 08:36 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
If you're not using a dropper for the advantage of lowering the seat (COG) on descents then what exactly are you using it for? Bunching your legs up a bit so your quads can get cramped?
Who said not to use a dropper on a steep descent?

What I said was that it is not the ONLY use for a dropper.

They are useful in many technical situations. Leaning the bike over on sketchy turns, riding over loose and sketchy terrain. Almost any time things get hairy, it almost always helps to have the seat lowered. Almost anyone who has been using a dropper for a while knows this.

As far as a the flat bars... some people just like flat bars better. I personally can’t stand dirt drops. I prefer either slightly flared drops (like Cowbells) or a flat bar.
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Old 05-10-20, 09:40 PM
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Have a dropper.. use a dropper.

My point is, if you are going into a style of riding where you anticipate you will want to use a dropper, why choose such a very limited travel. It's great if you are only going to stay in that small range of use but, as soon as you expand outward, you will find yourself limited by it and want to buy yet another dropper that allows you to do more with it.

50mm travel. That's 5cm. Hold your fingers apart 5 cm - what's the point of adding a dropper to do that?

Getting back to the OP. The bike maker has chosen to include a dropper, that choice has already been made. I'm just saying that it's short sighted for a build that costs a lot of money, especially when the geometry allows for a larger travel post with no sacrifice.

Flats or drops is a choice I agree. However, I would say many probably tend to upgrade from flats to drops of some sort for performance than from drops to flats. In that sense, if we think of a bike that can grow with an increase in rider ability, flats restrict upgrading a little more than drops. Not a point I would argue too vigorously but a consideration in any case.

Some might think I'm slagging the bike. I am not really. I think it's great to have choice. I think the dropper is poorly spec'd and I think that flat bars can be an expensive consideration if thinking about upgrading down the road. That's all.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 05-10-20 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 05-11-20, 05:02 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Have a dropper.. use a dropper.

My point is, if you are going into a style of riding where you anticipate you will want to use a dropper, why choose such a very limited travel. It's great if you are only going to stay in that small range of use but, as soon as you expand outward, you will find yourself limited by it and want to buy yet another dropper that allows you to do more with it.

50mm travel. That's 5cm. Hold your fingers apart 5 cm - what's the point of adding a dropper to do that?

Getting back to the OP. The bike maker has chosen to include a dropper, that choice has already been made. I'm just saying that it's short sighted for a build that costs a lot of money, especially when the geometry allows for a larger travel post with no sacrifice.

Flats or drops is a choice I agree. However, I would say many probably tend to upgrade from flats to drops of some sort for performance than from drops to flats. In that sense, if we think of a bike that can grow with an increase in rider ability, flats restrict upgrading a little more than drops. Not a point I would argue too vigorously but a consideration in any case.

Some might think I'm slagging the bike. I am not really. I think it's great to have choice. I think the dropper is poorly spec'd and I think that flat bars can be an expensive consideration if thinking about upgrading down the road. That's all.
I think those complaining about the 50mm dropper may not be very considering that the geometry of these bikes are actually quite different from a MTB and a lot of gravel riders are running a decent amount of saddle to bar drop. Without a dropper, it becomes difficult to get your weight far enough back on steep descents. The 50mm drop is exactly what's needed to resolve that. For someone running a 100mm saddle to bar drop, it cuts that in half when needed to allow you to get back and down where you want to be. The design is centered around resolving an issue encountered by those doing gravel riding vs. attempting to add an MTB functionality.

You do realize that the new Diverge comes in 9 drop bar models in addition to the 2 flat bar versions, right? It's been a drop bar bike for many years, and now based on rider feedback have decided to offer flat bar options for riders who find that better suits their preference.
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Old 05-11-20, 06:24 AM
  #62  
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Yes this is a higher-end hybrid. I'm getting a little tired of people complaining about bikes like this or really anything gravel-related as being a "marketing exercise" or that this bike is just a "90s hardtail"... yeah? So? Specialized is in the business of selling bikes, there are people who want exactly this kind of bike. Specialized should sell it to them. There are micro-thin gradations between "aero" and "lightweight" road bikes or "trail" and "enduro" mountain bikes and people have no problem with either. What is wrong with more choice?

Personally, I think it's great that you can buy most any kind of bike you want this day easily from mainstream brands. The choices are endless and finely tuned for very specific needs. I think this one is a bike that will appeal to a lot of people. Lots of people want a higher-end hybrid with more aggressive geometry and lots of mounting points for a reasonable price. This is basically a perfect commuter for someone who has a good place to lock a bike up at work.
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Old 05-11-20, 07:00 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Camilo
Serious question: what's the point of a dropper seat post on a bike intended for cruising off pavement- as opposed to "real" mountain biking?
Some use their gravel bike for singletrack. This seems especially true in CA where I commonly read that gravel roads aren't rideen so much as steep fire roads.

Everywhere I read, its gravel roads and I don't need a dropped for them any more than I need a dropper for my paved road bikes.
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Old 05-11-20, 07:06 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Oneder
No one wants drop bars at all except a tiny minority who are probably over represented on a bored like this. I barely ever see them even though I see very expensive bikes every day now that the lockdown has everyone riding way more.
Of all the people i see riding gravel, 85% are on drop bars. 10% are on fat tire bikes. 5% are on mtbs or cludged together old hybrids.

I am not in an overly wealthy are of the country and my area does not seem to have a snobbish cycling culture.

You may see only a tiny minority with drops, but its quite different here when it comes to gravel(what this bike is marketed/designed for).
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Old 05-11-20, 07:20 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by hillyman
A 90s mountain bike is now the new advanced technology. We've come a long way baby
700c/29er wheels and tires.
1x drivetrain
carbon fork
hydraulic disc brakes
future shock
Fork mounts for bottles

All these are significant differences from an early 90s rigid mtb, and it doesn't even address geometry differences.


I am the last person to defend specialized and I don't have interest in this bike, but some of whats said about it is absurd.
Even if a 90s rigid mtb can do 90% of what this does(or 100%), many aren't interested in buying a 3 decade old bike and then figuring out whats needed and how to update it.

Also, the diverge lineup still has drop bars too. This is just an addition to the diverge lineup to offer the same benefits in a different cockpit style. Oh the horror, right?!
Diamondbacks Haanjo lineup has had a flat bar option since '17 or so, for what its worth.
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Old 05-11-20, 08:26 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by NumbersGuy
I think those complaining about the 50mm dropper may not be very considering that the geometry of these bikes are actually quite different from a MTB and a lot of gravel riders are running a decent amount of saddle to bar drop. Without a dropper, it becomes difficult to get your weight far enough back on steep descents. The 50mm drop is exactly what's needed to resolve that. For someone running a 100mm saddle to bar drop, it cuts that in half when needed to allow you to get back and down where you want to be. The design is centered around resolving an issue encountered by those doing gravel riding vs. attempting to add an MTB functionality.
Not that different - many XC MTB riders also run a significant amount of saddle to bar drop, around 100mm seems to be pretty common with the taller riders.
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Old 05-11-20, 09:01 AM
  #67  
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I would like to see "a lot" of gravel bikes running significant saddle to bar drop with flat bars. A quick google image search for "gravel bikes" shows such a profile, all with drops.

Those who say the manufacturer is creating more diversity and micro sub genres are correct, and that's not a bad thing. If they made 23 models of the Diverge it would be 23 choices. Great! To me it just seems this is a model that has it's foot half in and half out of directions that people will probably take (speed/technical) and will soon be outgrown or altered. The foreseen changes to the design features added though, will be expensive on top of an already expensive bike.

This is just an internet discussion board, these are just opinions about design. It's ok to talk about ideas.
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Old 05-11-20, 09:09 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Of all the people i see riding gravel, 85% are on drop bars. 10% are on fat tire bikes. 5% are on mtbs or cludged together old hybrids.

I am not in an overly wealthy are of the country and my area does not seem to have a snobbish cycling culture.

You may see only a tiny minority with drops, but its quite different here when it comes to gravel(what this bike is marketed/designed for).
The whole point of my post is that I think they will sell more without it, if you can actually buy them without it lol Aside from some internet knowitalls/snobs no one wants that crap especially on this kind of bike and most people don't use them even for road bikes let alone mountain bikes or hybrids (if the option is available). Anyway you are tiring and seem to have reading comprehension issues so I will just put you on ignore.
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Old 05-11-20, 10:32 AM
  #69  
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Another note about droppers, maybe more relevant to hybrids than to gravel bikes. When mountain bikes with QR seat posts arrived, the idea was that they'd allow you to drop the seat for a descent. But most people who bought a mountain bike in the 80's got it to be their do-everything bike (just like a 10-speed in the 70's). The convenience of quickly changing the seat post height was obvious to anyone, and so they also quickly appeared on hybrids and townie bikes. Now those same kinds of bikes are also starting to get droppers. Not quickly, because they are cheap bikes, but you can already find them on some cargo bikes where they will allow you to flat-foot the beast while taking off or stopping. PNW Components is now marketing a 100mm dropper where 25mm of the travel doubles as suspension.
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Old 05-11-20, 11:00 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Have a dropper.. use a dropper.

My point is, if you are going into a style of riding where you anticipate you will want to use a dropper, why choose such a very limited travel. It's great if you are only going to stay in that small range of use but, as soon as you expand outward, you will find yourself limited by it and want to buy yet another dropper that allows you to do more with it.

50mm travel. That's 5cm. Hold your fingers apart 5 cm - what's the point of adding a dropper to do that?

Getting back to the OP. The bike maker has chosen to include a dropper, that choice has already been made. I'm just saying that it's short sighted for a build that costs a lot of money, especially when the geometry allows for a larger travel post with no sacrifice.

Flats or drops is a choice I agree. However, I would say many probably tend to upgrade from flats to drops of some sort for performance than from drops to flats. In that sense, if we think of a bike that can grow with an increase in rider ability, flats restrict upgrading a little more than drops. Not a point I would argue too vigorously but a consideration in any case.

Some might think I'm slagging the bike. I am not really. I think it's great to have choice. I think the dropper is poorly spec'd and I think that flat bars can be an expensive consideration if thinking about upgrading down the road. That's all.
I'm not really that passionate about the dropper issue, but I will point out this: What 50mm looks like when you hold your fingers apart is not relevant. What IS relevant is what it it feels like when you drop your saddle that much. And it feels significant. And for what this bike is intended for, it is plenty. My GD has a 1" (25mm) drop position, and I find it very useful. I use it a lot actually, and where I use it is exactly the kind of situation that I expect I would on this sort of bike. It is just enough to get the saddle out of my way on a lot of technical situations, but not so much that I can't pedal. Could they have offered more? Sure, but I would be interested to know WHY they did not before slagging on it. One reason may be that people found 50mm to be the most useful drop for this kind of bike and the riding they were doing, and by making that the bottom out point, it is a no-brainer to hit it each time. I find that when I want just a little bit of drop, I find the GD with the set position at 1" to be better than my PNW with infinite adjust, as I never get the hieght quite right the first shot.

But whatever, opinion on that are going to differ.

As far as the flat-bar specific geo... I don't think this argument makes much sense. It suggests that they should sacrifice the geo for the stock build just in case someone decides that they should have bought the drop bar model instead. Then people would be complaining about the half-a$$ed in-between geo.... and I would agree with them. They offer BOTH drop bar and flat bar versions of the bike, so it would be idiotic not to optimize the geos for each. I think your argument about inability to "upgrade" is based purely on your personal tastes. This is a bike for people who do not consider drops an "upgrade" for this type of bike.
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Old 05-11-20, 11:03 AM
  #71  
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If you are on very steep terrain you might want a bigger dropper, if not a smaller is fine (and a lot cheaper) and that's what hybrids are about. Pretty obvious really.
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Old 05-11-20, 11:48 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
I'm not really that passionate about the dropper issue, but I will point out this: What 50mm looks like when you hold your fingers apart is not relevant. What IS relevant is what it it feels like when you drop your saddle that much. And it feels significant. And for what this bike is intended for, it is plenty. My GD has a 1" (25mm) drop position, and I find it very useful. I use it a lot actually, and where I use it is exactly the kind of situation that I expect I would on this sort of bike. It is just enough to get the saddle out of my way on a lot of technical situations, but not so much that I can't pedal. Could they have offered more? Sure, but I would be interested to know WHY they did not before slagging on it. One reason may be that people found 50mm to be the most useful drop for this kind of bike and the riding they were doing, and by making that the bottom out point, it is a no-brainer to hit it each time. I find that when I want just a little bit of drop, I find the GD with the set position at 1" to be better than my PNW with infinite adjust, as I never get the hieght quite right the first shot.

But whatever, opinion on that are going to differ.

As far as the flat-bar specific geo... I don't think this argument makes much sense. It suggests that they should sacrifice the geo for the stock build just in case someone decides that they should have bought the drop bar model instead. Then people would be complaining about the half-a$$ed in-between geo.... and I would agree with them. They offer BOTH drop bar and flat bar versions of the bike, so it would be idiotic not to optimize the geos for each. I think your argument about inability to "upgrade" is based purely on your personal tastes. This is a bike for people who do not consider drops an "upgrade" for this type of bike.
I agree that it's all just opinion. No matter what, people are going to argue from their own POV and put forth reasons for or against the design. Personally, I think that's the value of discussion boards. Hopefully we are not trying to sell the bikes or have a vested interst other than conformation bias.

Before this thread I would never have thought people would want to accept the weight and cost penalty for a minimal variation the way sone are advocating. It's all good
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Old 04-19-21, 07:37 PM
  #73  
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Nothing wrong with that bike. Good upright position, great for fitness, fun, etc.
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Old 04-19-21, 08:45 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Highcad
Nothing wrong with that bike. Good upright position, great for fitness, fun, etc.
Agreed with what you wrote but the thread kinda went dormant in around this time last year so not so terrible of a zombie thread but maybe not as needed.
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Old 04-19-21, 10:35 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury
Nonsense! My fork has a remote lockout, most serious XC mtb bikes today will have remote suspension lockout. Currently, I'm running 2.2" tires, but I could also size down the tires if so desired. My bike as configured weighs just about 20 lbs, so that's about 1 pound more than a Diverge Carbon Pro. And considering how much more capable the XTC is on single- and double-track, and bumpy & fast fireroad, then that 1 pound difference means nothing. Unless you just want to drone around in gravel all day long, it's more fun to hit the flowy single- or double-tracks when there are some.

and the dropper post, oh boy, for gravel? let's see how long before that thing starts to rattle and annoy the crap outta you.
I don't think that's the market that these bikes are aiming at. They're looking at the cyclists who used to ride mountain bikes around on paved and unpaved mellow paths. I don't think they are expecting to sell one to you.
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