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New bikes, and the creeping cost of entry to our favorite sport

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New bikes, and the creeping cost of entry to our favorite sport

Old 04-22-21, 04:58 PM
  #201  
Shay Howe 
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
You sure claim to know a lot about everyone and what they are thinking...

Time to update the iggy list.
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Old 04-22-21, 05:12 PM
  #202  
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Originally Posted by Ed Wiser
I remember when I started riding in the 80’s there was a wide variety of components manufactures. As more bike started to be made in China this has really caused this consolidation of components. An not in a good way. It’s not good to have one company have so much market share in a market.
There are some decent low end options from china right now. Hubs, groupsets, rims and even frames from china have gotten pretty solid recently. They not as good as the top tier stuff, but you're paying a fraction of the price and I bet an all-china build in 2021 would beat a top tier WT bike from 20 years ago. Or maybe even 15.
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Old 04-22-21, 06:44 PM
  #203  
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This is the reason I no longer recommend to major brands to beginner riders who are not looking to spend too much. In my opinion you don’t get the quality a brand like Cannondale is known for until you spend upwards $2,000. The company I work for makes their own brand of bikes and the entry level ones are the best you can get for the price in terms of cost and the components you get. Now it’s by no means a luxury bike at $600, but it’s one of the best options for the price. And the mid level and up bikes they make are pretty good too.
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Old 04-23-21, 03:40 AM
  #204  
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You have to look for good deals. In 1997 I bought a new Raleigh R700 with Ultegra 600 group for $1200 (still have it). In 2012 I bought a Focus Culebro with Ultegra 6700 on sale for $1200. In 2019 I bought a Diamondback Podium Disc with a 105 group on sale+corporate discount for $1200.
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Old 04-23-21, 08:46 AM
  #205  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
Um, no. Corporate taxes in the US remained unchanged from 2008-2017, and then dropped drastically in 2018.

There are many reasons for inflation, taxes are not one of them.
And now they are talking about raising the approx 10%.
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Old 04-23-21, 08:49 AM
  #206  
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Talking to a friend that builds his own airplanes, he says that the price of cro-moly tubing has gone sky hi. And some mfg that built titanium bikes no longer offer them because the tubing they used on some of their models are no longer available.
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Old 04-23-21, 08:52 AM
  #207  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
And now they are talking about raising the approx 10%.
Irrelevant to the point you were making.
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Old 04-23-21, 08:56 AM
  #208  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
Talking to a friend that builds his own airplanes, he says that the price of cro-moly tubing has gone sky hi. And some mfg that built titanium bikes no longer offer them because the tubing they used on some of their models are no longer available.
I guess my steel bikes have just jumped up in value then.
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Old 04-23-21, 08:58 AM
  #209  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Shimano has 70% market share in derailleurs and 50% in components over all. No one else even comes close. It's by far the least competitive part of the industry.
I know it isn't everybody's cup of tea as it is a higher component level, but I view an electronic shifting arms race on the push to lower component levels as a possibility to open back up the component market.

With SRAM going down to their "105" level with electronic, pressure on Shimano.

If prices on electronic gets to a 105 level of components, you might see some 3rd party brands jumping in to play ball. And I mean down below the 105 component level also. Aren't electronic shifters already cheaper than the mech versions? Isn't the current SRAM new offering electronic same price now as mech 105?

That could be interesting.

The sub-$1000 bicycle is a whole different conversation on components that I'm not able to talk about. No condescension, we own plenty of affordable bikes in our household. I'm just up to speed on the other stuff is all.
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Old 04-23-21, 09:11 AM
  #210  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
Um, no. Corporate taxes in the US remained unchanged from 2008-2017, and then dropped drastically in 2018.

There are many reasons for inflation, taxes are not one of them.
Originally Posted by rydabent
And now they are talking about raising the approx 10%.
Incorrect, rydabent . The Biden administration has proposed raising the corporate profits tax rate from its current 21% to 28%, which would still leave it lower than it was even just a few years ago.

Oh, as Kapusta pointed out, it's completely irrelevant to the point you were trying (and failing) to make, anyway.

You know that device that you use to post stuff on the internet? You can actually use it to find info, too. You should try it sometime.
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Old 04-23-21, 09:15 AM
  #211  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
Talking to a friend that builds his own airplanes, he says that the price of cro-moly tubing has gone sky hi. And some mfg that built titanium bikes no longer offer them because the tubing they used on some of their models are no longer available.
Please provide actual evidence, other than "I heard this from a guy."

I'm only asking because you have a long history of posting things that are simply not true.
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Old 04-23-21, 09:48 AM
  #212  
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Either way, thankful not to be in the market for a new bike.
Tim
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Old 04-23-21, 09:50 AM
  #213  
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Originally Posted by MRT2
I guess my steel bikes have just jumped up in value then.

I just bought a Soma last night. Didn't realize it was an investment,
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Old 04-23-21, 01:39 PM
  #214  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
And now they are talking about raising the approx 10%.
You mean raising them back to when we had a record length of uninterrupted job growth?
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Old 04-23-21, 06:35 PM
  #215  
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I've been watching anything related to cycling go up in price for the last 6 or 7 years, and go up a LOT! I needed some cycling clothing and after seeing the prices I decided to try top rated Amazon generic clothing, I saved at least $400 in the cost of clothes had I bought name brand stuff. The stuff I got all had at least 5,000 reviews and they all got 4 1/2 stars, I just ordered the stuff so haven't tried them on a bike yet but they all fit great so I'm not expecting any issues.

I think the only thing related to cycling that hasn't gone through the roof is lighting, but that's because LED costs keep coming down as are the batteries for them.

So if you want to save money you are going to have to turn to generic clothing, and keep an eye open for sales and closeout sales.
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Old 04-24-21, 10:06 AM
  #216  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Incorrect, rydabent . The Biden administration has proposed raising the corporate profits tax rate from its current 21% to 28%, which would still leave it lower than it was even just a few years ago.

Oh, as Kapusta pointed out, it's completely irrelevant to the point you were trying (and failing) to make, anyway.

You know that device that you use to post stuff on the internet? You can actually use it to find info, too. You should try it sometime.
Too many times I have found that personal attacks like yours means you are devoid of a logical argument. I look at criticism in the light of who said it. To be offended I would have to respect the person who is doing it. In this case I dont.
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Old 04-24-21, 10:27 AM
  #217  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
Too many times I have found that personal attacks like yours means you are devoid of a logical argument. I look at criticism in the light of who said it. To be offended I would have to respect the person who is doing it. In this case I dont.
I don’t crave respect from people who cannot differentiate fact from fiction.
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Old 04-24-21, 10:55 AM
  #218  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
to be offended i would have to respect the person who is doing it read the post and consider what was written. In this case i don't didn't.
ftfy

Last edited by tomato coupe; 04-25-21 at 01:04 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 04-24-21, 04:19 PM
  #219  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
Too many times I have found that personal attacks like yours means you are devoid of a logical argument. I look at criticism in the light of who said it. To be offended I would have to respect the person who is doing it. In this case I dont.
By the way, the person who wrote post #176 should not be lecturing anyone about "logical arguments."
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Old 04-24-21, 07:05 PM
  #220  
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Old 04-25-21, 07:52 AM
  #221  
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Originally Posted by Bill in VA
It is not raw entry level cost, but apprehension of making the wrong purchase, and the wrong price point, all while meeting their needs and/or expectations. Only then when they are out and about enjoying their new purchase will they encounter the bicycling caste system and judgement of other riders.
Alternately they could go the route I went and find a cycling forum researching a purchase, run into the OP of this thread, be lectured incessantly about "doing it wrong" while trying to compensate for various physical/health issues, and nearly be put off cycling completely by what comes off as condescending snobbish elitism before realizing the forum's ignore function is a godsend and that there are reasonable people out there actually worth listening to.
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Old 04-25-21, 10:55 AM
  #222  
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Originally Posted by Bill in VA
Only then when they are out and about enjoying their new purchase will they encounter the bicycling caste system and judgement of other riders.
I see these references on bf, and am always befuddled. I've ridden and raced in various locations and with varied groups of people, and have never seen anyone look down upon, much less deprecate, another rider's bike.
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Old 04-25-21, 11:30 AM
  #223  
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Originally Posted by Shay Howe
Alternately they could go the route I went and find a cycling forum researching a purchase, run into the OP of this thread, be lectured incessantly about "doing it wrong" while trying to compensate for various physical/health issues, and nearly be put off cycling completely by what comes off as condescending snobbish elitism before realizing the forum's ignore function is a godsend and that there are reasonable people out there actually worth listening to.
For a person supposedly putting me on ignore, you are not doing a great job.
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Old 04-25-21, 05:09 PM
  #224  
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The Canondale Quick series bikes are good, even for experienced riders. Their Quick 6, their entry level Quick, can be had for $650. Bike prices have not really gone up that much. Now on bike whose specs have increased, the price has gone up proportionally, but apples to apples, the prices over the last five years have not increased that much. A Canondale CAAD 10 105 was $1680 in 2015, today, the CAAD 13 105 is $1800. That is not much of a difference.

Much of what is at play, is the major manufacturers, know that there is a bigger market in bikes that start a little above entry level bikes. It is difficult to compete against entry level bikes from a big box store. So many entry level riders are looking at price, and are not educated enough about bicycles to understand the difference between a $350-$500 bike at a big box store, and a $750 bike from a bike shop. They then buy on price. If that person then gets into bicycling enough that they learn and want something better, then they are more wiling to pay the price difference.

There is also a danger in selling lower cost entry level bikes. A person who buys the low end bike, will then associate that manufacturer with lower quality, and will be hesitant to buy from them again, wanting instead, something of higher quality, despite the fact the manufacturer may make very high quality bikes.
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Old 04-25-21, 05:22 PM
  #225  
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Originally Posted by MRT2
This is a variation on a theme I see from time to time. I am not really concerned for myself, as I have a nice bike that I have invested in new wheels, and have otherwise maintained over the years.
I have seen a creep up in new bike prices in recent years. Where as if you asked me 5 or 6 years ago, what it the minimum price to pay for a good basic bike for al around use, such as neighborhood ride, MUPs, light off road, or even group or charity rides of 50 miles or less, I would have said, $400 to $500. Today, I would say $700 to $800. And I don't really like telling people this. Often a beginner will be looking for not one, but maybe two bikes. One for themselves, and one for a spouse. So where as in the past, I would have said, you can probably get started for $1,000 or less, now that price is almost $2,000, for two people.

So what happened? Is it tariffs? Corporate greed? Demand for bikes boosted by the pandemic while supply chain got interrupted last year?
Hard to say.
One thing I have noticed with the big brands is pushing disc brakes, which is pushing up the price of the entry level, while leaving the budget bikes without disc brakes also seriously under spec'd. For example, the Trek FX1 retails for $500, but has a 7 speed freewheel. Not so long ago, you could get an FX 7.2 with 8 speed freehub for around $500, and Giant made an 8 speed Escape 2 for $460, and you could even get a carbon fork 9 speed Escape 1 for $650.
Today, if you want an 8 speed Trek or Giant (or any other major brand), you have to get one with disc brakes, and it will cost you $700. If you want carbon fork, or 9 speed, you are talking about $800 to $900.

I find this frustrating not so much for a bike enthusiast like myself, but for those looking to get into the sport. The entry level price seems high for what you are getting, especially compared to just a few years ago. It would literally cost the major brands a couple of bucks per unit to offer a $500 bike with an 8 speed freehub and cassette over the barely better than department store bike 7 speed freewheel. And, for $700, I hate to seem like a Luddite, but better wheels, and drivetrain seem like a better thing to offer the customer at that price point than disc brakes.

So to put a finer point on this, I think $500 is a reasonable entry point into the sport for a good, basic bike. But is it too much to ask that the manufacturers at least equip said bike with a freehub, and decent drivetrain components?
Anybody else have thoughts on this?
Originally Posted by phughes
The Canondale Quick series bikes are good, even for experienced riders. Their Quick 6, their entry level Quick, can be had for $650. Bike prices have not really gone up that much. Now on bike whose specs have increased, the price has gone up proportionally, but apples to apples, the prices over the last five years have not increased that much. A Canondale CAAD 10 105 was $1680 in 2015, today, the CAAD 13 105 is $1800. That is not much of a difference.

Much of what is at play, is the major manufacturers, know that there is a bigger market in bikes that start a little above entry level bikes. It is difficult to compete against entry level bikes from a big box store. So many entry level riders are looking at price, and are not educated enough about bicycles to understand the difference between a $350-$500 bike at a big box store, and a $750 bike from a bike shop. They then buy on price. If that person then gets into bicycling enough that they learn and want something better, then they are more wiling to pay the price difference.

There is also a danger in selling lower cost entry level bikes. A person who buys the low end bike, will then associate that manufacturer with lower quality, and will be hesitant to buy from them again, wanting instead, something of higher quality, despite the fact the manufacturer may make very high quality bikes.
Then again, there is a danger of selling lower quality at higher prices, which Cannondale is as guilty of as any of the big brands.
The Quick 6 has a 7 speed freewheel, as far as I can tell. Which was my initial point. The $700 Quick 5 has 7 speed Tourney.
If you want an 8, or 9 speed Cannondale with a freehub, something that was available just a few years ago for $400 or $500 or so, you have to go up to the Quick 4, at almost $900. (they don't even have an 8 speed Quick, according to the website.
Edit: I just realized, you don't even get entry level Shimano on the Quick 6. You get 7 speed Micro shift. And something called Pro Max brakes. not that there is anything wrong with that. if my old 7 speed needed a replacement shifter or derailleur, I might put something like that on for $15 or so, but I wouldn't pay $650 for a Microshift equipped Cannondale.
If you want Shimano, you have to go up to $725 to get Tourney level drivetrain, though you still get Promax brakes. Not even Tektro, Promax.

Last edited by MRT2; 04-25-21 at 05:39 PM.
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