GCRyder

I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one here who remembered how clips and straps were designed to be used. You CANNOT get your feet out unless you reach down with your hand and release the little ratchet on the strap enough to let the cleat-slot loose from the rear of the pedal. Using them on the street was nothing but a sure-fire method of improving your track-stand. Used as they were meant to be, they were flat-out dangerous, and that was the impetus for the development of clipless. But you rarely see anyone using them that way any more. The last couple pair of shoes I've bought didn't even come with the cleats.

Also, whether the attachment makes you better able to pull on the upstroke is a red herring issue. Pulling up is not the real objective of either type. The bond between foot and pedal is meant to increase power around the bottom of the pedal rotation, from about 4 o'clock to 7 o'clock. That was also the benefit of the slotted cleat and cinched-down strap.

Stacy

Whether or not to use clipless pedals should probably be a personal choice based on how well you feel you can unclip should the need arise.

In she summer of 2005, witness who posted to https://www.streetsblog.org/ and a story that appeared in New York Newsday indicated that clipless pedals may have been a factor in the death of cyclist Liz Padilla

grolby

The point is that what most cyclists think is making their stroke more efficient is actually compromising their efficiency. "Pedaling in circles" is not more efficient simply because power distribution is more evenly distributed throughout the pedal stroke. The structure of the human leg and the position of the rider on the bicycle make the muscle motion required to pull upwards on the pedals relatively inefficient and potentially wasteful of energy that could be more usefully applied to the down stroke and follow-through at the bottom of the circle. Concentrating on "improving" the pedal upstroke is at best not particularly effective, very likely to produce zero benefit for most riders, and can at worst actually hinder efficient pedaling because of energy wasted to produce power during inefficient parts of the pedal stroke. It can also lead to knee injury. I have sensitive knees, which I have to treat gently, and I have noticed that pulling up on the pedals very quickly leads to pain.

I don't think that it would be quite accurate to say that I completely agree with charles vail, but I think that everyone here is wrong to dismiss him as blowing smoke or speaking crazy-talk. There is no doubt in my mind that clipless pedals DO improve performance. Even pulling up on the pedals can provide benefits for acceleration from a stop or climbing in a relatively high gear. But these are relatively inefficient, low-cadence pedaling techniques. For efficient, high-cadence pedaling, it is extremely unlikely that trying to apply power through the entire pedal stroke will yield any benefits. And the performance boost is relatively small in any case - not as small as Mr. Vail suggests, I don't think, but still pretty small - and probably has a lot more to do with simply having a secure connection to the pedals than the ability to pull up on them.

The point is that it's reasonable to ask if a commuting cyclist really has any need for clipless pedals or toe clips. Personally, I like my clipless pedals and prefer to ride with them when it is convenient. For most of the riding I do right now, it is NOT convenient. I'm just trying to get around town or to school or my job and back. Even "walkable" SPD shoes aren't very comfortable for spending a whole day walking around and doing lots of different things. Changing shoes every time I get off my bike doesn't strike me as worth the time and effort simply to have more efficient pedaling for a couple of miles. I don't find myself really missing my clipless pedals for my commuting and bumming around town, and I don't have a whole lot of interest in going back to toe clips. Again, we're not racing to get to work, are we? Even inexpensive pedals and shoes are an investment, and I don't think it's reasonable to convince your average commuting and utility cyclist they "need" them, because after all, they probably don't.

modernjess

I've been using a similar pedal (Shimano M545's) for 8+years. Mountain biking at first and I also run them on my commuter. You can ride them with regular shoes, BUT it's not so good. You can feel the spring loaded spd's sticking up in the middle of the sole, so the contact with the full pedal is a little funky. I do it all the time for short rides around the nieghborhood with my kids or to a store close by. But anything more than that and I'm wearing my cycling shoes and I'm clipped in.

I do really like the design of the platform/cage around the pedals. They provide an extra measure of contact and security. On really slippery sections it's sometime nice to pre-clip out and still have contact. Also they are super easy to get into without looking, and even if you miss you can keep pedaling until you get in, which I think can be very handy for starts in traffic.

If being able to ride frequently or any real distance without cycling shoes is going to be important to you, then the one sided SPD combo pedals like the Shimano M-324 or similar would probalby be a better choice.

brianmcg123

I would say that is a good bike shop. They could have easily sold you $100 pedals and some shoes to go with them. But they were actually honest.

jrubzer

I live a few blocks away and ride past the ghost bike erected at the spot Elizabeth Padilla was killed every morning. I commute clipless and the thought of switching back does not even enter my mind. I also seriously doubt that her life was lost due to her choice to ride clipless. The fact is that there is an abundance of commercial traffic on 5th avenue and endless construction which causes riders to alter their path constantly.

daredevil

I think the numbers on this thread speak for themselves. The ratio is substantially in favor of clipless. The reason doesn't really matter I guess. Pedaling efficiency, comfort, whatever.

daredevil

By simply saying not to bother with clipless doesn't make them a good LBS in my opinion. Yes it's nice they didn't rip off the guy but is that all you have to do to be a good LBS? Not talking about the benefits or drawbacks of clipless is just lazy or unknowledgeable.

chipcom 

One can always slap some Power Grips on platforms if they want to see for themselves if they can get any benefit from having some attachment to the pedal. They have the added benefit of getting one used to the motions of clipping in and clipping out, reducing the learning (falling down and going boom) curve if one opts to go to clipless.

richardmasoner

After I explained how to clip in and out, my 11-year-old son was able to ride with SPDs immediately -- the learning curve was basically non-existent. He's probably about average in terms of athletic ability. While mountain biking yesterday he did tip over once, but that's because he was being a hotshot show-off and forgot to unbind to dab.

Stacy

I live just off of Houston Street where three cyclists were killed in about 13 months . I still continue to ride on Houston, when I have to, and I'll continue to ride in the rain, but I've decided against clipless pedals.

It would seem that riding clipless was a factor in Liz Padilla death just as riding in light rain was probably a factor for Derek Lake. But I don't think most of us are going to hop off our bikes and opt for public transportation every time a drop falls from the sky. These certainly weren't the only factors in either of these tragically fatal incidents. All we can really do is assess our individual ability to deal with these risks.

pinkrobe

Grolby:

If this is going to come down to a debate on efficiency, then let's define efficiency. For me it's getting to work/home in the shortest amount of time possible. Clipless pedals allow me to apply more power to the drivetrain than I could with flat pedals. Applying more power to the drivetrain maximizes my acceleration and speed, ergo, clipless pedals make me more efficient. I have 16 potential stops on my way to work, so acceleration is pretty important to me.

If the definition of efficiency you wish to use is minimal energy expenditure vs. time [or distance] for the commute, then it won't matter if you've got clipless pedals or not, since you'll be going pretty slowly. I'd rather sleep in, read the paper, post on BF, etc. than lollygag through traffic on my way to work.

Hip flexors can and do provide significant power to a pedal stroke, but only if you're clipped in. Without the ability to pull up on the pedals, the best you can hope for is to minimize backpressure. Without the ability to pull back or push forward on the pedal, you must rely entirely on your quadriceps to propel you forward. Hip flexors, hamstrings, and hamstrings all contribute when clipped in, but are largely dead weight when using flat pedals. That sounds pretty inefficient, IMHO.

Let's see - ah yes, good ol' knee pain. My knees were trashed by the time I got to high school. Osteoarthritis, Chondromalacia and Osgood-Schlatter did me in before I was 16. I can't run for more than a couple of blocks without having my knees begin to ache and swell. Pulling up on the pedals doesn't hurt my knees - in fact, it gives them a break because I'm reducing the load on the patellar tendon. Knees aren't supposed to hurt when cycling; if they are, you're probably doing something wrong...

rs_woods

I am still reading, but this topic is moving way too fast for me to keep up with and reply to (still on page 2 actually, skipped ahead to page 3) with my limited access to internet. It makes sense that I don't need the minimal performance upgrade of a powered upstroke when most of my riding is at a moderate-to-fast pace, rather than gut-busting-iron-man-triathlon-training pace. Regardless, all the hooplah surrounding clipless pedals demands that I at least try them out for a little while, it seems most of the benefit is intangible for the pro-clipless posters on this forum.

That said, everybody at the LBS I work at tells me they're badass, and have done a lot to encourage me in that direction. I take the advice of these people most seriously, because they actually know me personally and know how I ride. I just didn't want to bust my teeth trying to get home from work, but even the owner of my LBS says it's an inevitable but harmless tilt to one side that I'll have to just deal with.

daredevil

There ya go, just listen to them.

Sorry I assumed you had left us. Good luck with your decision. If anybody wanted to wager on your decision, I'd bet you'll end up going clipless.

I think pinkrobe expressed it best for all of us clipless advocates.

Sci-Fi

Use whatever pedals that you feel most comfortable and confident with.

The only time I really hear an argument about clip vs clipless vs platform pedals is for those extremely rare times when one has to make the instinctive choice to lay their bike down to either avoid or decrease the chances of a more serious accident. I doubt many at this forum ever had to make that choice. For some, unclicking/releasing from the pedals isn't quick/fast enough regardless of the adjustment or float. There have been debates on loose dirt/wet/snow/ice conditions. There are no easy and fast answers for those conditions/concerns...everyone is different and have varying levels of expectations/experience and reflexes.

Although there is a learning curve and if you don't experience a lot of stop and go or crowded situations, clipless is the way to go. The old school method is to try out clipless pedals in a deserted parking lot and practice clipping in and out of the pedals at a slow speed, work your way up to short distances while still practicing clipping in and out, and finally work up to sudden stops where you have to unclip quickly. The learning curve can be fast or slow depending on the person.

For the general cycling public, platforms may be the only pedals they have experienced or grew up with/came with the bike and don't see a need to spend any more money...and that's ok too.

TRaffic Jammer

....and when I'm clipped in, the rare moments when the distribution is perfect, the feet are steady whirling circles.....I actually feel like it's effortless. The perfect pedal stroke, so elusive...

Lucky07

Clipless is definitely worth it for longer commutes. If you're only riding a couple of miles, you might try toeclips. I've ridden both on my relatively short commute & never had an issue. You do have to anticipate clipping in and out in heavy traffic (or just work on your trackstand), but that just comes to you after a couple of days.

I can see where it might be an issue with unpredictable surfaces like wet or icy pavement, but if you've practiced clipping out quickly you can minimize the risk. Good luck.

thdave

Why do they call it clipless when you are clipping in???

Anyhow--I agree that clipless is worth it for long commutes but why advise toeclips for short commutes? Clearly platforms are adequate for some trips--if not a couple of miles--how far?

I don't get it when so many advocate efficiency for such short trips. You're using what you know from your long road rides and not being quite practical from a commuting standpoint.

I declare myself the inefficiency advocate! That's appropriate for me, since I am a government employee.

Remember--it is much easier to crank it up to 400 watts with an inefficent bike than an efficient one!!!

ItsJustMe

IMHO, platforms are only "adequate" if you only ride in nice weather. I got my toeclips the day after having my sneakers slip off my platforms TWICE while riding in the rain, once when I was at the front of the line at a stoplight, trying to take off when it turned green, with a large pickup behind me. With toe clips, you can at least keep one toe in the clips at a stop, and even if you pedal away on the non-clip side, if that shoe slips off, at least you still have one foot in a clip and can have some control.

TRaffic Jammer

They are clipless because you are no longer sporting toe clips.
hmmmm good point maybe we should be clicking in.
I recommend clipless for all sorts of commutes as the acceleration benefits can be experienced anytime you accelerate.

LóFarkas

Ummm that's really silly right there. Nobody wants to ride with perfectly even force all around... just move in that direction. That way, you put in a bit les force on the downstroke, a hell of a lot more on the upstroke (=>overall performance gain) and raise your cadence, which in turn does wonders to protect your knee and muscles. It's not about jerking the pedal up as hard as you can... on the contrary: being as smooth as you can, 360°.
[/QUOTE]
..which is completely impossible in any practical way with any system other than clipless.

This is of course not crucial for most commuters, but once a subject comes up, let's not talk nonsense about it.

thdave

Of course their clipless (toe wise, that is) but you still clip in. See the irony?

TRaffic Jammer

semantics ... let's say we click in.

DataJunkie

It have heard it mentioned before that the naming convention for toe clips and clipless are backwards. Besides hearing it I have not given it any thought.

grolby

pinkrobe: wanting to get home faster is all well and good, and if clipless helps you do that, that's all well and good. But that's not efficiency, it's a separate issue. Efficiency already has a definition, which I think is perfectly clear. There's no need to redefine it when you are really talking about speed. No matter; I haven't been claiming that you are no more efficient with clipless than without, simply that the benefits are greatly overstated for commuting.

Don't get me wrong, if I were commuting more than the five miles a day or so that I do on average these days - often in one mile or shorter bits that require me to get on and off the bike a lot in different locations - I would probably be riding clipless. But over the short distances I ride, and the short distances MOST people that commute to work must ride, there is unlikely to be any efficiency OR speed difference worth caring about, especially when you factor in the time to change shoes.

LoFarkas - If people don't mean to say that you shouldn't try to literally put an even level of force on the pedal through 360 degrees, than they should find another way to say what they mean. Nonetheless, I am aware that most people are talking about the same thing that you are. I still think it's silly. I've ridden in both ways, pulling up on the pedals before I learned the error of my ways, and later just concentrating on the follow-through and pull-back. I can't give you numbers, but it certainly hasn't slowed me down. What it HAS done is made it (brace yourself!) easier to maintain a smooth pedal stroke at high cadences. Smoothness isn't about applying some force as your feet come up on the back part of the pedal stroke, it's about concentrating on smoothing your movement. That's it. There's nothing else to it. Smoothness is simply a matter of practiced motion, and has nothing to do with pulling up on the pedals. You don't need to pull in order to make it happen. I would argue, in fact, that it's easier to control your muscle movements and keep them quick and smooth when you aren't simultaneously trying to do work with them. But hey, what do I know?

Look guys, I love clipless pedals, I really do! I've got 'em on my road bike and I have clipless/plain combos on my touring bike. I just don't think it makes sense to put them on the list of Things the Commuting Cyclist Must Have. They're really not that important - and I've commuted with toe clips, clipless pedals and plain pedals, so I'm not just retro-grouching, here. If you want them to improve efficiency or get to and from work a little bit faster, or just because you them, fine. But let's not fool ourselves into believing that the average commuting cyclist really needs to spend $100 in the name of efficiency. It's a matter of personal preference, and generally it's pretty darn reasonable to prefer to not bother with them.

Just my opinion, that's all.