juvela

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frame a good mystery for me as well. especially since i purchased my first road bike from Mr. Harding over fifty years back, it carries transfers stating "Cork Ireland" without claiming to be made there. had long known his house brand frames/bikes were done by Holdsworthy so just assumed it must be one of those.

thanks to T-Mar's vastly greater knowledge we learn more as to the puzzle...

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juvela

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Buellster wrote -

"The sticker is a real bummer, your the second person to point it out. It seems like the sticker is fairly old given its wear pattern and I never would have thought of it being a fake. It makes sense people would do that but at this price point I didnt think I needed to worry about it.
So what do I have here? Is this a decent piece of equipment or is it a lower end clunker?"

regarding the fork blades and fork blade transfers - "usually" when Reynolds blades are present a Reynolds steerer is employed as well. (there were hundreds of thousands of french production bikes made which bore Reynolds transfers stating they were eleven tubers yet they cheated and used NERVOR or other lower cost steerers instead) one simple check you can make is to withdraw the fork and examine its steerer. if the steerer is Reynolds it will be so marked. if the fork were made with a Reynolds steerer it would be most reasonable to assume the blades Reynolds as well. also it is possible the steerer may be marked with the serial number. if a number is present and it matches that of the frame then it would tell you the fork original.

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T-Mar

I apologize for the confusion. My intent was not to imply that the Reynolds decal was a fake but that its era does not coincide with the date codes on some of the components, specifically the April 1984 code on crankset. The decal is the pre-1983 style and the probability this style being used as late as 1984 would be small. You've got a wide range of date codes, so it's obviously been frankenbike to an extent and the more codes you can find, the better appreciation we'll have the actual era. That's why I suggested examining the derailleurs.

There were some British builders who thought that the most important factor in a comfortable ride was a high grade fork. So, while it deviated from the standard cost concession practice (i.e. higher grade main triangle with lower grade forks and stays), there are examples of lower grade frames with higher grade forks. The probability is small, but I wouldn't rule it out. It's sort of the C&V equivalent of aluminum and steel frames with carbon fibre forks, which enjoyed a period of popularity.

One factor against it being a Reynolds 531 fork is the low survival rate for fully intact Reynolds decals, as they were notoriously fragile during this era. To increase your confidence in the fork material identity, I suggest examination per juvela's criteria (i.e. matching S/N and Reynolds stamping on steering column). While you've got the fork out, you might as well weigh it, provided you have access to an accurate scale. That may provide further clues to the grade of the fork. Also, are the dropouts stamped, like the rear or are they forged?

Buellster

Once again Ill start by saying forgive my ignorance. The only info I can find on Ostuya BB shells is another post you (Tmar) made in 2004 which Identified a Saracen road frame (https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...oad-frame.html) as having the same type of BB. Does this give any leads on who could be the manufacturer of this frame? There are a few similarities between my frame and that one but I wouldn't think nearly enough to link them past having the same BB shell.

Buellster

If I am understanding you correctly you are saying it may be a Reynolds 531 for, but I should double check by weighing and checking the SN given the stickers looking incorrect for the time of the frame?
I'm not home currently, but I will look at the other parts to help identify the age of the cycle.

Buellster

I believe that I may have posted a link to this thread before but here it is again: (https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...-thoughts.html)
Here is another Bike from a different site that I think may be the same or at least quite similar. (https://www.pedalroom.com/forums/mar...ecomplete-4927)

Neither posters seem to know much about the bikes other than what we have found but it may help me understand what I have a little better.
Would I be correct in thinking this is the same model as my bike? it looks quite similar
down to the lugs, I need to see if my drop outs are campy(I dont believe they are)

Buellster

This is the one from this site


Different site and different bike I think. Could the different colors mark a slightly higher end model given the full campy on both of these?

juvela

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Good finds.

Frame appears identical.

Silver bike is wearing Taiwan brake levers.

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Buellster

Well that's something!
The people with them didnt seem to know more than anyone else but I know at least two of them exist in the world other than mine... maybe just one because the more I look at these pictures the more I think this is the same bike 4 years apart haha
Those brake levers are something else!
I was also able to rule out raliegh as a potential frame maker (another thread mentioned that the Ireland Harding shop may have had thier bikes built thier for a time) because the serial systems dont line up.
That same thread did mention that the frames made by holdsworth were original designs from harding made by holdsworth and if that's the case... well I dont know what that would mean but its interesting!
I have found nothing about Grubb or Claude badged bikes though. The internet is pretty short on info about eithier.

juvela

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After looking at images of silver example a bit more have noticed that -

a) lug pattern is different

b) a seat tube pump peg is present which your example lacks

c) there is clearly a Reynolds transfer at the top of the seat tube

d) it received a better quality headset than your frame did

in this image head and seat angles appear surprisingly shallow; perhaps a photographic/perspective effect...



compared with your example angles appear same. suspect something like 71 degree parallel.

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T-Mar

The BIG difference in the frames in post #32 is that they both have higher grade forged rear dropouts with an integral derailleur hanger, while the OP's has lower grade stamped dropouts that require a claw derailleur mount. Looking at the original threads for both bicycles, the one is definately plain gauge 531 and the other appears to be the same. It still looks like the OP's frame is a lower grade, different model. .

Buellster

Yeah that's what my inclination was. I think you guys are right. I noticed this one had a full campy set up where mine does not, and my frame is quite likley hi the steel.
I am thinking mine may be more an "entry level "Harding.
I had not figured such a small set of shops (from what I know just the one in CA and the one in Cork Ireland) would feature entry level self branded bikes. Was that common? I would figure that if a small shop is self branding they are doing it with nice frames and simply buying lower quality ones from lower quality manufactures to resale.

Buellster

Front drop out as requested by Tmar

T-Mar

Thxs for posting the picture of your fork dropouts.. They're definitely stamped. While I can't identify the dropout construction for the other two Hardings, their blade end treatment appears to Reynolds' standard issue dome end. Yours is a straight cut. This, in conjunction with the stamped dropout, suggests a different fork and likely a lower grade model.

Buellster

so the derailur appears to be one year younger than the wheel hubs and 4 years previous to the front crank.
my window is staying about the same but not getting smaller haha

Stamp on rear derailur looks to be WI which means Sep 1980 per provided decoder ring. Near to the rims, date seems to be 1981 production?

Buellster

Alrighty weinman brakes are October 1980
seems like the window is closing in on a 1980-81 production date with later add of front crank?

Buellster

Finally the front derailleur is 1981
is it odd to have the dates a year apart?

T-Mar

The brake and rear derailleur are both late enough in 1980 that the bicycle would be no older than a 1981 model. If the wheels are OEM, the hubs codes suggest a possible 1982 model. Either way, the crankset would appear to be a later addition, as previously suggested by juvela. Pending any further information, I'd be calling it a 1981-982 model.

Edit: With the addition of the front derailleur code supporting the hubs, I'd be inclined to call it a 1982 model manufactured in late 1981.

Normally, one would not expect codes ranging from very late 1980s to late 1981 if this had come from a mass volume manufacturer. But Harding was a very small operation and if they were doing the bicycle assembly themselves, it is far more likely that they would have some older component stock on hand.

Buellster

Thanks!
My detective work has likley reached its end.
There seems to be no more information to find on Harding cycles and we have a near date of production.
If this was that model year does that increase pr decrease the likley hood of the forks being legit 531?
seems like the picture of the front dropouts made you more as opposed to less skeptical.

juvela

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Have been conjecturing for a time now that original assembly done ~1982 with chainset changed out ~1984-85.

What we still do not know is if cycle was "factory assembled", assembled by Charlie in his Westwood shop or consumer assembled. Kitting certainly not like anything a production facility would do. One of the posters in the forum thread wrote that Charlie placed a shop transfer on everything which went out the door, regardless of brand. Of course the shop transfer could have been easily removed on the subject bicycle...

Kitting on silver machine is somewhat similar although there are numerous differences. One thing striking to me about it is that the Campag Record HS is of a level so much above the balance of its fittings. This makes me wonder if the HS may have been fitted by the frame maker and the frameset sent to the retailer like that for assembly by the retail shop or consumer.

Recall that among british frame makers it was fairly common to ship frames with a HS installed. Certainly not all followed this practice but many did.

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Buellster

It is odd but then on the silver the whole set up was campy. Drop outs, rims(if i remember the post right) and HS. As well as the full 531 tube set.
My assumption is that the whole bike was the next step up from mine.
Could it be that Charlie, or his brother in Ireland, had a lower grade model and a higher grade model that only differed in tubesets and components?
Which part of the assembly are we talking, the frame building itself or the make up of the components?
Everything I've read about the Harding cycles in Ireland and America imply that the frames where built by holdsworth and other hirtho unknown sources, sent to the shop and assembled more fully there.
at least that's what I've gathered out of what people have said.

Buellster

I also read somewhere that Charley Harding in the states did build frames, 10 frames to be exact because the tube set he purchased came in a set of 10. He didnt have a painting facility though so the look was not usually "production" paint quality.
I cannot find which thread I read that in but it was one of the few on here dealing with Hardings over the years.
I am 1000% sure mine isn't one of the ten given its paint job and its serial number length, I just found that tidbit interesting.

juvela

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The only Camapg component mounted onto the silver frame/bicycle is the Record HS.

The wheel hubs are stated to be Normandy Sport.

The wheel rims are Super Champion.

The gear ensemble is Suntour.

The brake set is Weinmann, at least nominally.

The chainset is an inexpensive alloy swaged one from Japan.

The pedals are not specified but they have crimped together bodies rather than the forged bodies of quality pedals.

With regard to tubing the Reynolds seat tube transfer seen in this image indicates the frame is contructed with the three main tubes Reynolds 531 plain gauge (not butted).



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Buellster

ah well my mistakes, never mind my theory haha
It seems all of the Harding branded bikes are a source of mystery

Buellster

With the help of another member I was able to hunt down a Claude Butler catalouge from 1981 and I think I may have found it!
It looks like it could be a 1981 CB mystuiqe rebranded (I await a list of things i dont notice that are different and prove me wrong. Haha)


This CB Mystuiqe seems to be the exact same bike EXCEPT for the 531 tubeset on this one. That keeps tripping me up as mine seems to be hi-ten steel. But boy does this look exactly the same.


Description seems quite close. It even specifys that the mystique came with 531 forks. Which seems to imply the body is a different grade, which would match my set up.