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Circa 1955 Phillips Step Through SA Dyno-Three Hubs with Working Lights! PHOTOS HEAVY

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Circa 1955 Phillips Step Through SA Dyno-Three Hubs with Working Lights! PHOTOS HEAVY

Old 01-21-15, 07:43 AM
  #176  
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
At this point I'm confident that, if given a bucket of dyno hub parts for a SA dynohub, I could successfully put it all together and it would work.
You have mad skillz! I have a gazillion SA hubs and entire wheels laying around and have yet to disassemble and reassemble one. I have helped with a couple, but have mostly been an observer of the process.
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Old 01-21-15, 07:45 AM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by markk900
Oh, and for those long shop sessions you need more nutrition than a banana....I use the following supplement:

+1 A nice alcoholic beverage, preferably beer, goes a long way when you are cycling or working on bicycles.
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Old 01-21-15, 12:02 PM
  #178  
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@markk900 & @auchencrow - Thanks! My body is a lot less achy this morning. I don't drink, but I had lots of cups of coffee! Honestly the time just flies when I'm focused like that. I look at the clock and think, "It's what time!?"


@auchencrow - unfortunately the 3/16" clear heat shrink tubing I bought didn't shrink down enough, so did some measuring and ordered 3/32", which will shrink down to exactly the size of the cable.


For purposes of my shifting last night I used the nut/bolt assembly that came with the cable replacement kit. Don't have soldering materials & read soldering on stainless steel can be tricky, so bought JB Weld & may try that along with crimping (referring to post the other day on 3 speeds & elegant way to attach sleeve). Anyway, would hate to be riding along and have the JB Weld come undone and suddenly find myself in high gear!
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Old 01-21-15, 02:56 PM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
I don't drink, but I had lots of cups of coffee!
If Prince Phillip hasn't driven you to drink, you must be a strong willed person....

Originally Posted by Velocivixen
Anyway, would hate to be riding along and have the JB Weld come undone and suddenly find myself in high gear!
Even if it did it would not be all that bad....just a little slower on the hills. And since the important bit is threaded onto the indicator rod you wouldn't even lose any parts!
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Old 01-21-15, 03:50 PM
  #180  
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My first 3-speed would have had me drinking pretty heavily if only I drank. I had to take the cranks off the spindle about 10 times; had the BB apart 3 times, changed out bearings, 3 bearing cups, even the spindle trying to find out what was causing the crank to bind. Turned out to be the left side crank arm was cast too thick and was engaging the bearing cups of the BB. That took a bit of filing to correct, but then the corrosion would build up since the finish was gone and the problem would reappear. I still have not got the finish issue fixed but so far not had any further problems.

None of the other machines have given me such problems, but it might be because I know them a bit better now...
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Old 01-21-15, 06:17 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by Salubrious
My first 3-speed would have had me drinking pretty heavily if only I drank. I had to take the cranks off the spindle about 10 times; had the BB apart 3 times, changed out bearings, 3 bearing cups, even the spindle trying to find out what was causing the crank to bind. Turned out to be the left side crank arm was cast too thick and was engaging the bearing cups of the BB. That took a bit of filing to correct, but then the corrosion would build up since the finish was gone and the problem would reappear. I still have not got the finish issue fixed but so far not had any further problems.

None of the other machines have given me such problems, but it might be because I know them a bit better now...
Oh wow. Sounds like that bike gave you a run for your money! I'm surprised that my bike has really nice bearings/race surfaces. Only the front cones were slightly pitted - because someone had the Raleigh style front hubs put together incorrectly and the cone was tightening toward the race!
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Old 01-24-15, 07:06 AM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
DONE! With the Dynohub overhaul. I followed the directions and things worked out just like they were supposed to (mostly). I was relieved, yet somewhat disappointed when I opened up the innards, because obviously someone had been in there over the last 60 years. The ball bearings were shiny as new. I had done the WD-40, followed by 10W-30 motor oil, so that may have helped. I degreased, scrubbed and ultrasonically cleaned everything and reassembled.

Here are some photos:



There was one corroded spot on the magnet, which I cleaned up but it's still there. The hardest and most time consuming part was screwing those tiny 4 nuts back on the screws that hold the armature/magnet in place. The nuts are on the inside of the hub and there are 40 spokes in the way. Removing them was easy with the right tool, but getting them seated and turning & maintaining level took a lot of time to figure out. Had to use the index finger from each hand, woven under some spokes. These 4 nuts took me at least one hour!

Put on the 22T cog, got the new chain on and the wheel installed, hooked up shifter cable....and it didn't work. Well it shifted for a couple times, then I got between gears to where the pedals were spinning but nothing was happening. The indicator pin was not coming all the way in/out. So....off with the wheel, disassemble (not the cog part), driver, ball ring gear ring, and even the planetary gears/housing. Everything looked fine, although the axle key was slightly askew. I think that's why the indicator pin (which screws into the axle key) was hung up and not pulling the clutch to all the positions. I reassembled, reinstalled on the bike and voila! Works every time.

Then, when I went to attach the dyno light wires I see that the terminal nuts are in the wrong position!!!!!! It doesn't mention to pay attention to those nuts when you're reading the "assemble/disassemble" dyno/hub instructions. Way over as a "service note" under the section of how to WIRE the lights it says to ensure that the terminal nuts on the armature are 30 degrees clockwise from the flats of the rear axle!!!!! Took the wheel off, loosened the left cone, adjusted the terminals where I thought they were to go, readjusted cone, reinstalled on the bike - no go. By now I've been in the garage for 10 hours with a banana for lunch. So rinse and repeat a few times until I got the terminal nuts right.

However, there was more than "almost imperceptible" play at the rim. Ugh. Are you kidding me!!!!? I swear I adjusted that cone so many times. Of course when you tighten the lock nut that changes the cone adjustment. It's hard to tell if it's "imperceptible" at the rim without installing onto the bike. I did this several times. Now, it's not perceptible at all. I'm tired. I see my wheel is more out of true than I thought.

I am done for the night. It shifts, has a new cog & chain. I didn't have to move the chain guard when I reinstalled it. I think my chain line is decent. I didn't kill the dyno, didn't accidentally separate the magnet from the armature. My fingernails are trashed.

I know, it's late and I'm going on a bit. I'm getting CR18 rims, some straight gauge spokes and brass nipples (doesn't the last part sound just dandy?) on Thursday or Friday. You know I'm going to try my hand at my first ever wheel. It will be the front wheel.

At this point I'm confident that, if given a bucket of dyno hub parts for a SA dynohub, I could successfully put it all together and it would work.

Nice!

I use a piece of floral wire with some putty on the end for starting small nuts. My hands are on the large side, and I don't have the best manual dexterity anymore.

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Old 01-24-15, 12:15 PM
  #183  
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@wahoonc - I'm trying to envision how you use the floral wire. Images help (I'm visual).

So, in case anyone is still watching this thread I'm happy to report that I bought a CR18 rim, straight spokes (2.0 mm like the originals), brass nipples and boiled linseed oil to lube the threads with. I have NEVER build a wheel and am only mildly experienced trueing them. I have the Park Tool TS 2.2 stand, dish tool, Tensionometer, nipple driver, spoke wrenches, lots of quiet time, coffee and a positive demeanor! I have read most of "The Wheel" by Jobst Brandt, read Sheldon Brown's wheel building instructions. However my wheelbuilder likes "The Art of Wheel Building" by Gerd Schraner (she said Jobst was a physicist & that Schraner had more "practical experience" & easier for beginner to follow). Of course no book store anywhere in Portland has a copy.

I was was at the hardware store talking to the young kid who recognized me from when he worked last summer at the LBS. I shared my woes about not being able to find the book by Schraner - and what does he say?! "I have that book. You want to borrow it?" He doesn't even know me personally- just from when I come in (often) to buy stuff I need for bike projects. How nice is that!?

I also found a detailed SA document explaining that you can adjust the chain line in 1/16" increments from 1.5" - 1.75" and gave specific details about what spacer/dished cog orientation would achieve what chain line distance. So....I've got that to do.

I ordered two pairs of the "R" shaped pawl springs & an axle key from Harris because I felt the springs lacked the "vigor" of a new spring, and the axle key seemed rounded where the flats are supposed to be. Also ordered one of those rubber right axle covers.

I used brass tubing & JB Weld for the end of the shifter cable so I could reuse the original barrel vs the modern nut/eye bolt that comes with replacements. Waited 24 hours for the stuff to dry....great anticipation....went to hook it up.....was too short by at least 3/4"! I moved shift lever to compensate, but that put shifter in an inconvenient location! Thank goodness ordered two lengths of heat shrink tubing. So, for now I'm using the nut/bolt set up.
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Old 01-24-15, 12:44 PM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
@wahoonc - I'm trying to envision how you use the floral wire. Images help (I'm visual).

So, in case anyone is still watching this thread I'm happy to report that I bought a CR18 rim, straight spokes (2.0 mm like the originals), brass nipples and boiled linseed oil to lube the threads with. I have NEVER build a wheel and am only mildly experienced trueing them. I have the Park Tool TS 2.2 stand, dish tool, Tensionometer, nipple driver, spoke wrenches, lots of quiet time, coffee and a positive demeanor! I have read most of "The Wheel" by Jobst Brandt, read Sheldon Brown's wheel building instructions. However my wheelbuilder likes "The Art of Wheel Building" by Gerd Schraner (she said Jobst was a physicist & that Schraner had more "practical experience" & easier for beginner to follow). Of course no book store anywhere in Portland has a copy.

I was was at the hardware store talking to the young kid who recognized me from when he worked last summer at the LBS. I shared my woes about not being able to find the book by Schraner - and what does he say?! "I have that book. You want to borrow it?" He doesn't even know me personally- just from when I come in (often) to buy stuff I need for bike projects. How nice is that!?

I also found a detailed SA document explaining that you can adjust the chain line in 1/16" increments from 1.5" - 1.75" and gave specific details about what spacer/dished cog orientation would achieve what chain line distance. So....I've got that to do.

I ordered two pairs of the "R" shaped pawl springs & an axle key from Harris because I felt the springs lacked the "vigor" of a new spring, and the axle key seemed rounded where the flats are supposed to be. Also ordered one of those rubber right axle covers.

I used brass tubing & JB Weld for the end of the shifter cable so I could reuse the original barrel vs the modern nut/eye bolt that comes with replacements. Waited 24 hours for the stuff to dry....great anticipation....went to hook it up.....was too short by at least 3/4"! I moved shift lever to compensate, but that put shifter in an inconvenient location! Thank goodness ordered two lengths of heat shrink tubing. So, for now I'm using the nut/bolt set up.
@velocivvixen

Wow, you are really going with this restoration!

I'm going to look for "the Art of Wheel Building" also.

I called my LBS last night asking about cotters; when I went there this morning, there were two containers of cotters on the counter waiting for me. That shows that it pays to build relationships. I also was allowed to pick through the old parts drawer to find some thin axle locknuts, a Raleigh front axle, and one "R" axle nut and two "R" seat post nuts.

Do you have a pdf copy of the S/A document about axle spacing, or a link. I'm thinking about another Raleigh right now.

BTW - The thin axle locknuts and cotters were for a Sears/Steyr 3-speed that I am finally getting around to completing.

Good luck on your wheel build.
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Old 01-24-15, 12:58 PM
  #185  
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@dweenk - I have this from the SA Heritage site:

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Old 01-24-15, 01:00 PM
  #186  
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It will eat at you not having matching rims. I'd recommend replacing the other while you're at it.
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Old 01-24-15, 01:10 PM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by Velocivixen
[...], in case anyone is still watching this thread I'm happy to report that I bought a CR18 rim, straight spokes (2.0 mm like the originals), brass nipples and boiled linseed oil to lube the threads with. I have NEVER build a wheel and am only mildly experienced trueing them. I have the Park Tool TS 2.2 stand, dish tool, Tensionometer, nipple driver, spoke wrenches, lots of quiet time, coffee and a positive demeanor! I have read most of "The Wheel" by Jobst Brandt, read Sheldon Brown's wheel building instructions. However my wheelbuilder likes "The Art of Wheel Building" by Gerd Schraner (she said Jobst was a physicist & that Schraner had more "practical experience" & easier for beginner to follow). Of course no book store anywhere in Portland has a copy.
Either Brandt's book (which I bought before I built my first wheels in about 1986) or Sheldon's instructions will do the trick for you. I think that you end up with different spoke head orientation (heads in or out on pulling spokes) depending on which you use. You're building a front wheel. so it doesn't matter. If you were building a rear wheel, then, it wouldn't matter. My suggestion would be to follow Brandt's book's instructions as I find them a bit more clear than Sheldon's, but Sheldon's are certainly clear enough. I've never heard anybody complain about Brandt's techniques or methods. Some find him to be a pedantic jerk, but a smart, knowledgeable pedantic jerk. As far as being a physicist, a great one (Rutherford, I think) said that all science was either physics or stamp collecting. I don't know that I would say that, perhaps I'm not sufficiently clever. But, everything involved with a bicycle wheel is well understood from within the realm of classical (Newtonian) physics. Unless you're really fast.

I'd also suggest measuring the ERD of the CR18 you have in your hands. Probably, it comes out to 578 mm, which is the number that I see published. If it measures greater than 580, or so, you might want to revisit the spoke length calculation to make sure that you are happy with where the spoke ends are likely to end up. Someone in these forums, and thanks to whoever it was, suggested making a couple gauge spokes to make measuring ERD a snap. Take a couple old spokes and thread some nipples on them. Use super glue, or a crimper, and fix those suckers so they can't move. Then, measure the spoke and cut it off so that the length from your baseline (perhaps the bottom of the screwdriver slot) is 250mm. Measure about 1/2 mm too long and then gently machine them to length with a file or grinder. To measure, put the spokes in opposite holes and measure the distance between ends and add 500 mm. Repeat at 90 degrees (or, pi/4). There you are. Keep them for next time. Much easier than measuring the outside of the rim, the thickness, adjusting for the nipple, etc.

Sounds like you have everything you need. Last couple of wheels that I've built I've gotten into the habit of tensioning up to about 75% of desired final tension and then truing form there. All adjustments are then tightening. True it and round it and check tension, make minor adjustments. Then, tighten all spokes an equal amount (1/4 turn, 1/2 turn, whatever is appropriate) and repeat. If you are experienced, like some people here, this may seem a little tedious, but I've found that by the time I get close to desired tension, everything is right where it's supposed to be. With a brand new CR18, it should be a snap. Something to consier: some people around here say that CR18 rims won't get as true as some better quality rims. But, if you are not measuring on the order of 10-3 inches with a dial caliper, you'll never know it.

Originally Posted by Velocivixen
I ordered two pairs of the "R" shaped pawl springs & an axle key from Harris because I felt the springs lacked the "vigor" of a new spring, and the axle key seemed rounded where the flats are supposed to be. Also ordered one of those rubber right axle covers.
I seem to recall from my youth, vaguely, that Twain had a story about deliberately dropping a coin and watching where it went in order to find a coin that had been lost. Might have been in "Tom Sawyer." I'm thinking of getting a couple pawl springs and seeing if the Twain method still works after all these years. I have a 69 AW hub that I bought a couple years ago which donated a pawl spring to the Black Widow after I lost one of hers. The 69 hub had a good one and a broken one. I guess there are two more in there somewhere, but I don't recall if they are supposed to be the same or not. If you are familiar with some of the Brandt stories on the web, you'll get this: perhaps I should ask one of Brandt's kids for help.
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Old 01-24-15, 01:15 PM
  #188  
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I just thought about making those gauge spokes. First, cut and file the spokes to 250 mm (or as close as you can get), then thread them into the nipples to the exact point you want them to be when all is done. Much easier than trying to measure to the bottom of the slot with spoke attached, and I'm sure that's the way I did it.
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Old 01-24-15, 01:44 PM
  #189  
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@Narhay- yes, you're right. I'm starting with the front, then depending on how it goes, I'll buy the stuff for the back. Or I'll take the wheel building class and in the class you build 2 wheels. I would bring the rear as my "project".
@desconhecido- I took the original wheel with me and had the wheel builder figure it all out regarding spoke length, etc.

At this point I have the Schraner book before me. I will do a quick read, then decide which one I'm using. I already read Brandt and understood what he was instructing....I'll post later with photos.
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Old 01-24-15, 03:05 PM
  #190  
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I use the Schraner book to build wheels, and it hasn't failed me yet. For some reason, following Sheldon Brown's method led me astray a couple of times, and I had to start all over. Not so with the Schraner method.
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Old 01-24-15, 04:12 PM
  #191  
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Have fun with the wheelbuild!
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Old 01-24-15, 05:35 PM
  #192  
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I spent time reading Schraner and was extremely confused by it. I am using Brandt and here's my work so far.



I installed the first set of 8 spokes and screwed on the nipples....then realized that the nipples were on backwards!​ I fixed that immediately. After each set of 8 spokes, I stopped, checked each one to make sure I was on track. I'm taking a break and am at the low tension trueing step now.
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Old 01-24-15, 05:42 PM
  #193  
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Looking good....after you are done, go back and watch the Raleigh film from the 50s - there you will be brought to tears as you can see people lacing and truing wheels in about 2 minutes.....its humbling.
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Old 01-24-15, 09:43 PM
  #194  
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Update: I'm stopping for the day. I've taken short breaks along the way of building my first wheel. It's true and the tensions are up and I'm at the phase when I will do the final tensioning & truing. My friend, who is a bike mechanic, showed me this in her shop last summer when I brought over some wheels to true. I remember this part well. The book that was the most help for me is the Jobst Brandt book. I will suggest for any who are considering their first wheel build to find a wheel building book/author that "makes sense" to you. There are more than one way to explain how to build a bike wheel, especially the initial lacing part. If you read one author and end up scratching your head thinking, "Whaaaa?". Check out another author. Don't just give up. You will find one who explains things in a way that gel with how your mind works and how you think. For me, the Gerd Schraner book did not work, but the Jobst Brandt book was great.

So....don't give up building your first wheels. Don't expect perfection in the beginning, and know that that's OK. You (I) will improve with more experience.
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Old 01-26-15, 12:27 PM
  #195  
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Finished front wheel last night. I kept going around & around on the fine tensioning. Near the end I check each spoke with a tensionometer & write it's number on the rim with a grease board pen. I do that on both sides. I look for any huge discrepancies, often right next to each other, and loosen/tighten to get them closer to each other & repeat on other side. So for example, my number I was shooting for on the tensionometer was 24. After checking tensions both sides, writing numbers on the rim, and making very slight adjustments to outlier numbers, I would check lateral & radial true. I would make subtle progress in that area, then repeat the numbers thing with the tensionometer. I kept going around & around near the end- I would make progress then undo the progress I had made. I had tightened the hub prior to starting so that hub play would not look like lateral true issues. Well, with all that spinning, somehow the hub got loose. So that lateral play I was fighting to correct was the hub wobbling side to side!

Once I tightened the hub and did more stress relief (the wheel's, not mine) I could hear the spokes go "ting". I rechecked the numbers & they were lower than I had thought - like 22 vs 23-34. However, once I started the above process, it went the way it's supposed to, and I finished with all the spokes at 24, wheel true (enough for me. My friend has dial indicators, which get the true down to like the thousandth mm).

Checked cone-hub adjustment, installed on the bike, ran a new front brake cable & slightly adjusted pads, brake centering, etc. and I was DONE!




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Old 01-26-15, 01:30 PM
  #196  
Salubrious
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Boy is that hub ever shiny! Nice work.

If you don't have a tension meter, you can do it by ear. Just pluck the spokes and on a new rim (not bent or out of round) with no dish they will all be the same frequency. Or pretty close.
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Old 01-26-15, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Salubrious
Boy is that hub ever shiny! Nice work.

If you don't have a tension meter, you can do it by ear. Just pluck the spokes and on a new rim (not bent or out of round) with no dish they will all be the same frequency. Or pretty close.
Yeah, I read you could use tone. Over the last year or so I've watched on CL for the expensive bits - bought a new, in box TS 2.2 stand, dishing tool on CL & bought a new tensionometer. Received a nipple driver & some spoke wrenches for the holidays, so pretty much set.

Waiting for today's mail for my new axle key & pawl springs for the SA dyno-three hub & will do those tonight. I can't wait to ride this thing. I haven't ridden it since I put on the 22t cog & new chain.
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Old 01-26-15, 04:04 PM
  #198  
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Originally Posted by Salubrious
Boy is that hub ever shiny! Nice work.

If you don't have a tension meter, you can do it by ear. Just pluck the spokes and on a new rim (not bent or out of round) with no dish they will all be the same frequency. Or pretty close.
I usually spin the wheel and let a small wrench or screwdriver bounce off the spokes - and you can compensate for dish by the pattern of sounds (bink-bonk-bink-bonk).... This has worked well for the motorcycle wheels I have built too.

Nice job though @Velocivixen - must feel good to be done that one!!
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Old 01-26-15, 09:48 PM
  #199  
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@markk900 - yes I am very satisfied with my first wheel and I learned a lot. I just looked at the rear wheel with 40 spokes & think I now know why, visually, looks so busy. It's a 3 cross on the dynohub (left) side and a 4 cross on the cog side. That's a lot of crossing. When I build a new one I will ask my wheel builder what I should do. I don't think it needs that many crosses.

I ordered pawl springs and an axle key from Harris, which I received today. Took the whole internals apart, however since I didn't want to remove the dyno I left the axle in the hub with left side clamped down. I had to removed everything from the hub shell via the right side (facing up). Replaced the springs and the pawls pop out with vigor! Putting it all together was interesting. Last time I had the axle alone in the vise, and simply sat all the pieces on each other one by one. Once it was all aligned and together I slide it as a unit into the hub. This time the axle was in the center of the hub shell and I had to gingerly lower each sub assembly in carefully one at a time. This made it a little challenging for things to line up and settle quickly. So that's done. I don't ever want to disassemble that thing again....at least for a very long time.

Installed one of those clear/white rubber "protection caps" on the end of the right axle where the indicator chain comes out. Guess it's supposed to keep your clothes from getting greasy if you brush up against it since it sticks out so far.



So, Sheldon Brown, as well as Sturmey Archer highly emphasize that before you remove the ball ring (from a SA IG hub) you mark the bike AND the ball ring, because there are 2 notches at 180 degrees from each other. There is a double thread to get the ball ring started so it's important to start it in the correct position. Well.....the first time I disassembled the hub I did mark the bike, but did not mark the ball ring. Neither Sheldon, nor Sturmey Archer go into much detail about what happens if you should accidentally start the ball ring at 180 degree starting point when threading. Well, I found out. I had trued the rear wheel prior to hub work and noticed, after reassembling the hub, that my wheel was miraculously "out of true". I fixed it but could not understand what I had done to make this suddenly happen. After all, I did mark the frame for where the ball ring notch was supposed to start. I figured it out yesterday, that I must have started threading the ball ring at the opposite notch. According to further research, this somehow due to threading, would cause the wheel to be "wobbly". Also wondered if it was contributing to the less than perfect shifting my hub experienced after the first rebuild. I rectified the situation tonight (don't know that I needed to but figured I'd put it back to original position), and of course had to re-true the wheel.

So, before removing the ball ring mark the bike AND the indentation and make sure to align them upon reassembly.

Also, my new front wheel with the CR18 rim looks like mag wheels on a Pinto!
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Old 01-26-15, 11:04 PM
  #200  
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Nice work!

The reason the wheel is a 3-cross on the Dyno side is the hub is a little stronger there due to the larger diameter. Since torque is transmitted through the body of the hub, the crossed spokes are there to make things stronger- the concern is failure of the hub body. That's why its a 4-cross on the drive side and that is also why the unit mounts on a 40-hole rim instead of 36. Its all about durability. Sure- the American 3-speeds usually ran 36 hole but they were thinking about it a different way- more as a toy and less as something that was meant to endure for half a century or more.

In practice you can have almost any pattern you want on the non-drive side. I have a radial pattern on my 4-speed on the Dyno side. But on the drive side its a 4-cross.

The 4-speed in this configuration (Dynohub) is rather rare. If you want to talk about something finicky and arcane that's the one...
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