Top tube slope
03-30-21, 10:35 PM
#51
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IIRC, the Giant TCR was the first modern road sloping TT bike in 1997. Back then, it was said one of the advantages was to reduce the frame sizes to 3 (S, M, L).
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...ant-tcr-206346
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...ant-tcr-206346
If the seat stays don’t meet the top tube, doesn’t that bike have reduced stiffness?
03-30-21, 10:45 PM
#52
Senior Member
The visual appeal of a clean clear-coated lugged or fillet frame is powerful indeed, however every time I hear people discussing the actuality, it seems impossible to prevent rust incursion. The clear coat is too porous, and the steel doesn't have the protection of primer/paint, so you get spider-web rust formations and streaks. They start out lovely, but get ugly pretty quick. So I've heard...
I've seen frames out of Japan with mega-thin paint, mostly done by painters specializing in Keirin track bikes. The Keirin riders have to use standard-spec, Keirin-approved frames/parts, so the paint is one of the only places they have any ability to save even a few grams of weight. Plus they want their bikes to look sweet. That thin paint doesn't quite match the honesty, certainly not the transparency, of clear coat, but it's maybe as close as you can get.
On the lovely Rickert, those look like pretty standard Nervex Pro lugs, which were widely used for decades, and they're not unusually small as production lugs go. Do some searching here for "bikini lugs" if you want to see something even more minimalistic.
As for fillet vs lugged vs whatevs, both properly done fillet and lugs should be strong enough that when stressed to breaking, the frame fails elsewhere. Fillet gives the builder more freedom in choosing frame angles and tubing profiles, lugs may help the builder make the frame a little more distinctive, or better showcase their style/abilities with both lug choice and lug modification. Like Gugie!
I've seen frames out of Japan with mega-thin paint, mostly done by painters specializing in Keirin track bikes. The Keirin riders have to use standard-spec, Keirin-approved frames/parts, so the paint is one of the only places they have any ability to save even a few grams of weight. Plus they want their bikes to look sweet. That thin paint doesn't quite match the honesty, certainly not the transparency, of clear coat, but it's maybe as close as you can get.
On the lovely Rickert, those look like pretty standard Nervex Pro lugs, which were widely used for decades, and they're not unusually small as production lugs go. Do some searching here for "bikini lugs" if you want to see something even more minimalistic.
As for fillet vs lugged vs whatevs, both properly done fillet and lugs should be strong enough that when stressed to breaking, the frame fails elsewhere. Fillet gives the builder more freedom in choosing frame angles and tubing profiles, lugs may help the builder make the frame a little more distinctive, or better showcase their style/abilities with both lug choice and lug modification. Like Gugie!
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03-30-21, 11:00 PM
#53
Senior Member
Gosh, you don't say? Here's a quote from the article:
"The performance benefits were obvious: a smaller main triangle was both stiffer and lighter. The rear triangle was correspondingly smaller, enhancing power transfer.
The Giant Mike Burrows carbon aero seatpost, that came in a number of different lengths and the Burrows adjustable stem meant that it was possible to achieve a bespoke fit.
For Giant there were enormous economic benefits, namely that they didn’t have to make 10 frame sizes using 10 sets of tooling; they could mass-produce three."
My thoughts/observations, both at the time and now, were/are:
1. Atop the smaller/stiffer rear triangle now towers a very long, non-trangulated/unsupported section of seatpost. How is that stiffer if the rider is pedaling from the saddle? Isn't some power lost to seatpost flex?
2. Achieving a bespoke fit by jacking up the seatpost sky-high, and/or resorting to very long, also inherently flexier stems, had neither handling nor fitting advantages in the real world.
3. The "enormous economic benefits" of reducing sizes by, what, threefold in this case, were IMHO/IME the true motivation for mfrs embracing this design.
4. From 10 to only 3 frame sizes you say? Hmmm, wonder what the catalogs said...
"The performance benefits were obvious: a smaller main triangle was both stiffer and lighter. The rear triangle was correspondingly smaller, enhancing power transfer.
The Giant Mike Burrows carbon aero seatpost, that came in a number of different lengths and the Burrows adjustable stem meant that it was possible to achieve a bespoke fit.
For Giant there were enormous economic benefits, namely that they didn’t have to make 10 frame sizes using 10 sets of tooling; they could mass-produce three."
My thoughts/observations, both at the time and now, were/are:
1. Atop the smaller/stiffer rear triangle now towers a very long, non-trangulated/unsupported section of seatpost. How is that stiffer if the rider is pedaling from the saddle? Isn't some power lost to seatpost flex?
2. Achieving a bespoke fit by jacking up the seatpost sky-high, and/or resorting to very long, also inherently flexier stems, had neither handling nor fitting advantages in the real world.
3. The "enormous economic benefits" of reducing sizes by, what, threefold in this case, were IMHO/IME the true motivation for mfrs embracing this design.
4. From 10 to only 3 frame sizes you say? Hmmm, wonder what the catalogs said...
IIRC, the Giant TCR was the first modern road sloping TT bike in 1997. Back then, it was said one of the advantages was to reduce the frame sizes to 3 (S, M, L).
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...ant-tcr-206346
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...ant-tcr-206346
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Fuggedaboutit!
Fuggedaboutit!
Last edited by pcb; 03-30-21 at 11:52 PM.
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03-30-21, 11:07 PM
#54
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There's some real beauty in that weld! Nothing hidden. That brazed lug of mine took a lot of filing to look good.
That's the holy grail of bike finishes. Unfortunately no one's figured out how to just clear coat a frame and not have rust spiders grow underneath, which kinda defeats the purpose. I've thought of attaching a sacrificial anode compartment in a frame, replace it every so often, and the frame would never rust, but smarter people than me have probably thought about this already and rejected it.
That's the holy grail of bike finishes. Unfortunately no one's figured out how to just clear coat a frame and not have rust spiders grow underneath, which kinda defeats the purpose. I've thought of attaching a sacrificial anode compartment in a frame, replace it every so often, and the frame would never rust, but smarter people than me have probably thought about this already and rejected it.
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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03-30-21, 11:10 PM
#55
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The visual appeal of a clean clear-coated lugged or fillet frame is powerful indeed, however every time I hear people discussing the actuality, it seems impossible to prevent rust incursion. The clear coat is too porous, and the steel doesn't have the protection of primer/paint, so you get spider-web rust formations and streaks. They start out lovely, but get ugly pretty quick. So I've heard...
I've seen frames out of Japan with mega-thin paint, mostly done by painters specializing in Keirin track bikes. The Keirin riders have to use standard-spec, Keirin-approved frames/parts, so the paint is one of the only places they have any ability to save even a few grams of weight. Plus they want their bikes to look sweet. That thin paint doesn't quite match the honesty, certainly not the transparency, of clear coat, but it's maybe as close as you can get.
On the lovely Rickert, those look like pretty standard Nervex Pro lugs, which were widely used for decades, and they're not unusually small as production lugs go. Do some searching here for "bikini lugs" if you want to see something even more minimalistic.
As for fillet vs lugged vs whatevs, both properly done fillet and lugs should be strong enough that when stressed to breaking, the frame fails elsewhere. Fillet gives the builder more freedom in choosing frame angles and tubing profiles, lugs may help the builder make the frame a little more distinctive, or better showcase their style/abilities with both lug choice and lug modification. Like Gugie!
I've seen frames out of Japan with mega-thin paint, mostly done by painters specializing in Keirin track bikes. The Keirin riders have to use standard-spec, Keirin-approved frames/parts, so the paint is one of the only places they have any ability to save even a few grams of weight. Plus they want their bikes to look sweet. That thin paint doesn't quite match the honesty, certainly not the transparency, of clear coat, but it's maybe as close as you can get.
On the lovely Rickert, those look like pretty standard Nervex Pro lugs, which were widely used for decades, and they're not unusually small as production lugs go. Do some searching here for "bikini lugs" if you want to see something even more minimalistic.
As for fillet vs lugged vs whatevs, both properly done fillet and lugs should be strong enough that when stressed to breaking, the frame fails elsewhere. Fillet gives the builder more freedom in choosing frame angles and tubing profiles, lugs may help the builder make the frame a little more distinctive, or better showcase their style/abilities with both lug choice and lug modification. Like Gugie!
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03-31-21, 09:16 AM
#58
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I had a PDF of "Designing and building your own frameset: An illustrated guide for the amateur bicycle builder (1979) -Talbot " which I've been meaning to read and this thread made me skim through it last night. I was quite surprised that in the design section the TT angle isn't mentioned (Unless I missed it). And it starts with you figuring out the headtube angle then the crown race position and size. I found it interesting all the changes you can make to get a frame to fit better including the width of a persons hips.
03-31-21, 10:01 AM
#59
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Show me a catalog where the company has fewer sizes from the sloping top tube era vs the straight top tube era. I’ve provide 3 examples where there aren’t fewer frame sizes after sloping top tubes were introduced into a company’s line.
I’ve checked at a lot of catalogs for this thread. The older catalogs...era of horizontal top tubes...list fewer frame sizes while the newer catalogs...era of sloping top tubes...list more frame sizes. The assertion that bicycle companies make fewer frame sizes because they use sloping top tubes is demonstrably false. Size designations like small, medium, and large aren’t used in road bikes in the catalogs I’ve reviewed. They seem to be used more in the mountain bike lines then in the road bikes. Even there, they don’t just stick with “small, medium, and large”. Trek has XXS, S, M, M/L, L, and XL designations for their mountain bikes. Just like with their road bike line, not every bike in their line has an extra small but an extra small option is available in at least some of their line.
Looking through the Trek catalogs, sloping top tubes don’t even really start to show up until the 2005 Pilot. Even then it was offered in 5 sizes, six if you include the WSD line. That’s, roughly, double of what you and Chombi1 have said were available.
I’ve checked at a lot of catalogs for this thread. The older catalogs...era of horizontal top tubes...list fewer frame sizes while the newer catalogs...era of sloping top tubes...list more frame sizes. The assertion that bicycle companies make fewer frame sizes because they use sloping top tubes is demonstrably false. Size designations like small, medium, and large aren’t used in road bikes in the catalogs I’ve reviewed. They seem to be used more in the mountain bike lines then in the road bikes. Even there, they don’t just stick with “small, medium, and large”. Trek has XXS, S, M, M/L, L, and XL designations for their mountain bikes. Just like with their road bike line, not every bike in their line has an extra small but an extra small option is available in at least some of their line.
Looking through the Trek catalogs, sloping top tubes don’t even really start to show up until the 2005 Pilot. Even then it was offered in 5 sizes, six if you include the WSD line. That’s, roughly, double of what you and Chombi1 have said were available.
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03-31-21, 10:08 AM
#60
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I had a PDF of "Designing and building your own frameset: An illustrated guide for the amateur bicycle builder (1979) -Talbot " which I've been meaning to read and this thread made me skim through it last night. I was quite surprised that in the design section the TT angle isn't mentioned (Unless I missed it). And it starts with you figuring out the headtube angle then the crown race position and size. I found it interesting all the changes you can make to get a frame to fit better including the width of a persons hips.
More elegant and precise than drawing everything out right onto the fab table, tacking the channel directly to the table style of fabricating.
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03-31-21, 10:15 AM
#61
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IIRC, the Giant TCR was the first modern road sloping TT bike in 1997. Back then, it was said one of the advantages was to reduce the frame sizes to 3 (S, M, L).
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...ant-tcr-206346
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/l...ant-tcr-206346
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
03-31-21, 10:36 AM
#62
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Gosh, you don't say? Here's a quote from the article:
"The performance benefits were obvious: a smaller main triangle was both stiffer and lighter. The rear triangle was correspondingly smaller, enhancing power transfer.
The Giant Mike Burrows carbon aero seatpost, that came in a number of different lengths and the Burrows adjustable stem meant that it was possible to achieve a bespoke fit.
For Giant there were enormous economic benefits, namely that they didn’t have to make 10 frame sizes using 10 sets of tooling; they could mass-produce three."
"The performance benefits were obvious: a smaller main triangle was both stiffer and lighter. The rear triangle was correspondingly smaller, enhancing power transfer.
The Giant Mike Burrows carbon aero seatpost, that came in a number of different lengths and the Burrows adjustable stem meant that it was possible to achieve a bespoke fit.
For Giant there were enormous economic benefits, namely that they didn’t have to make 10 frame sizes using 10 sets of tooling; they could mass-produce three."
1. Atop the smaller/stiffer rear triangle now towers a very long, non-trangulated/unsupported section of seatpost. How is that stiffer if the rider is pedaling from the saddle? Isn't some power lost to seatpost flex?
2. Achieving a bespoke fit by jacking up the seatpost sky-high, and/or resorting to very long, also inherently flexier stems, had neither handling nor fitting advantages in the real world.
3. The "enormous economic benefits" of reducing sizes by, what, threefold in this case, were IMHO/IME the true motivation for mfrs embracing this design.
4. From 10 to only 3 frame sizes you say? Hmmm, wonder what the catalogs said...
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
04-15-21, 07:22 PM
#63
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The visual appeal of a clean clear-coated lugged or fillet frame is powerful indeed, however every time I hear people discussing the actuality, it seems impossible to prevent rust incursion. The clear coat is too porous, and the steel doesn't have the protection of primer/paint, so you get spider-web rust formations and streaks. They start out lovely, but get ugly pretty quick. So I've heard...
I've seen frames out of Japan with mega-thin paint, mostly done by painters specializing in Keirin track bikes. The Keirin riders have to use standard-spec, Keirin-approved frames/parts, so the paint is one of the only places they have any ability to save even a few grams of weight. Plus they want their bikes to look sweet. That thin paint doesn't quite match the honesty, certainly not the transparency, of clear coat, but it's maybe as close as you can get.
On the lovely Rickert, those look like pretty standard Nervex Pro lugs, which were widely used for decades, and they're not unusually small as production lugs go. Do some searching here for "bikini lugs" if you want to see something even more minimalistic.
As for fillet vs lugged vs whatevs, both properly done fillet and lugs should be strong enough that when stressed to breaking, the frame fails elsewhere. Fillet gives the builder more freedom in choosing frame angles and tubing profiles, lugs may help the builder make the frame a little more distinctive, or better showcase their style/abilities with both lug choice and lug modification. Like Gugie!
I've seen frames out of Japan with mega-thin paint, mostly done by painters specializing in Keirin track bikes. The Keirin riders have to use standard-spec, Keirin-approved frames/parts, so the paint is one of the only places they have any ability to save even a few grams of weight. Plus they want their bikes to look sweet. That thin paint doesn't quite match the honesty, certainly not the transparency, of clear coat, but it's maybe as close as you can get.
On the lovely Rickert, those look like pretty standard Nervex Pro lugs, which were widely used for decades, and they're not unusually small as production lugs go. Do some searching here for "bikini lugs" if you want to see something even more minimalistic.
As for fillet vs lugged vs whatevs, both properly done fillet and lugs should be strong enough that when stressed to breaking, the frame fails elsewhere. Fillet gives the builder more freedom in choosing frame angles and tubing profiles, lugs may help the builder make the frame a little more distinctive, or better showcase their style/abilities with both lug choice and lug modification. Like Gugie!
What if the same thing happens under pigmented paint/powder coat, but no one knows because the paint hides the corrosion?
04-15-21, 07:39 PM
#64
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It most certainly happens. But that's the point, you don't see it. Turns out that rust spiders, or most rust we see on a bicycle frame is only skin deep, and has so little effect on strength of the frame that it just doesn't really matter.
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
04-15-21, 09:09 PM
#66
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Yep, outta sight, outta mind.
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
04-16-21, 06:31 AM
#68
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They weren't all level.... 
For some reason no one wants to buy this one as I downsize, LOL!!
For some reason no one wants to buy this one as I downsize, LOL!!
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04-16-21, 06:54 AM
#69
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When I started making frames in the mid 70's, I had to make a frame's seat tube long enough to fit a fairly short Campy seat post. I wasn't aware of longer seat posts until the mountain bike craze. A seat post was including in a Campy group that most customers wanted to use. Only the smallest slope was possible before running out of seat post length. This issue got worse when making a frame for a tall fellow that probably had a deeper handlebar drop. They couldn't ride a smaller frame with a level tup tube because of seat post minimum insertion requirements. And the top tube couldn't be sloped by fillet brazing again because normal available seatposts were short and couldn't put the saddle in a high enough position.
edit: jamesdak picture of the Schwinn Prologue is an illustration of having to make a seat tube long enough to fit fairly short seat posts.
edit: jamesdak picture of the Schwinn Prologue is an illustration of having to make a seat tube long enough to fit fairly short seat posts.
Last edited by Doug Fattic; 04-16-21 at 06:58 AM. Reason: added info
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04-17-21, 10:21 PM
#71
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The visual appeal of a clean clear-coated lugged or fillet frame is powerful indeed, however every time I hear people discussing the actuality, it seems impossible to prevent rust incursion. The clear coat is too porous, and the steel doesn't have the protection of primer/paint, so you get spider-web rust formations and streaks. They start out lovely, but get ugly pretty quick. So I've heard...
I've seen frames out of Japan with mega-thin paint, mostly done by painters specializing in Keirin track bikes. The Keirin riders have to use standard-spec, Keirin-approved frames/parts, so the paint is one of the only places they have any ability to save even a few grams of weight. Plus they want their bikes to look sweet. That thin paint doesn't quite match the honesty, certainly not the transparency, of clear coat, but it's maybe as close as you can get.
On the lovely Rickert, those look like pretty standard Nervex Pro lugs, which were widely used for decades, and they're not unusually small as production lugs go. Do some searching here for "bikini lugs" if you want to see something even more minimalistic.
As for fillet vs lugged vs whatevs, both properly done fillet and lugs should be strong enough that when stressed to breaking, the frame fails elsewhere. Fillet gives the builder more freedom in choosing frame angles and tubing profiles, lugs may help the builder make the frame a little more distinctive, or better showcase their style/abilities with both lug choice and lug modification. Like Gugie!
I've seen frames out of Japan with mega-thin paint, mostly done by painters specializing in Keirin track bikes. The Keirin riders have to use standard-spec, Keirin-approved frames/parts, so the paint is one of the only places they have any ability to save even a few grams of weight. Plus they want their bikes to look sweet. That thin paint doesn't quite match the honesty, certainly not the transparency, of clear coat, but it's maybe as close as you can get.
On the lovely Rickert, those look like pretty standard Nervex Pro lugs, which were widely used for decades, and they're not unusually small as production lugs go. Do some searching here for "bikini lugs" if you want to see something even more minimalistic.
As for fillet vs lugged vs whatevs, both properly done fillet and lugs should be strong enough that when stressed to breaking, the frame fails elsewhere. Fillet gives the builder more freedom in choosing frame angles and tubing profiles, lugs may help the builder make the frame a little more distinctive, or better showcase their style/abilities with both lug choice and lug modification. Like Gugie!
2 examples.
My kids pinewood derby car. It looked nice. I should have known the paint was going to make it overweight.
I forgot about this. Had a welding hood years ago. I painted it with white and orange stripes so I knew which was mine from a distance. The paint added so much weight that the hood kept coming down on its own and losing proper tension on the hinge screws.
04-18-21, 04:57 AM
#72
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