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Is it Safe to Ride on Vintage Carbon Wheels?

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Is it Safe to Ride on Vintage Carbon Wheels?

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Old 05-02-18, 09:54 AM
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Horochar
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Is it Safe to Ride on Vintage Carbon Wheels?

I wasn't sure which board to post this question in, but here it goes: I bought vintage early 1990s bike that came with Campanolo "Bora" carbon fiber tubular wheels, generation 1. That means that they would have been manufactured between 1994 and 1996. They are in cosmetically perfect condition, free of evidence of wear, cracks, delamination, nothing. Is it safe to ride on these? I was told by one bike mechanic that older carbon wheels, because they're under high tension, are prone to cracking and are not safe to ride on. I'm hoping that he's not right. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Charles
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Old 05-02-18, 10:01 AM
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In person inspection is best, but not a function of online,text comments, so yes/no
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Old 05-02-18, 10:04 AM
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Yes, I understand that, but what I think he's saying is that IN THE ABSTRACT (i.e., irrespective of wear), old carbon wheels are unsafe to ride on. Even if well maintained or NOS. I'm hoping he's wrong.

Charles
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Old 05-02-18, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Horochar
Yes, I understand that, but what I think he's saying is that IN THE ABSTRACT (i.e., irrespective of wear), old carbon wheels are unsafe to ride on. Even if well maintained or NOS. I'm hoping he's wrong.

Charles
To an extent, all wheels are "prone to cracking" from spoke tension and age, but that doesn't mean that something is "unsafe". For the wheel to be unsafe, the rim would have to go from no noticeable cracks to catastrophic failure during the middle of a ride. But that isn't what's going to happen. Instead, cracks will develop around the nipples, which won't cause the rim to fail all at once.

Ultimately, it is up to you what you think is safe, but if large company like Campy was aware that all their 20 year old wheels were causing severe crashes, they would do something about it and you would likely have heard about these accidents.

Buying a "vintage" carbon wheel should be approached with reasonable expectations about how much use you're going to get out of it, but you may not have any problems at all.
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Old 05-02-18, 12:19 PM
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"In the abstract" nothing is safe.
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Old 05-02-18, 12:34 PM
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So far I've avoided the temptation to ride vintage Spinergy wheels.

How many spokes do your Campy wheels have? Steel spokes? Aluminum hub flanges (or whole hub?)

I'd wonder if the CF wheels will maintain a good chunk of their original strength. Say 80% for example? Most tests indicate that CF parts are pretty resistant to cumulative fatigue effects, but if the wheels have been ridden for 20+ years, that could add up a bit.

Then, the question is how strong the wheels were out of the manufacture. I believe the 90's would predate the extreme emphasis on reducing the spoke count. But, it could also mean less emphasis on reinforcing around the nipples.

Anyway, I'd assume there is a little margin for error. So, I'd probably ride them if I had them. But, I'd probably not ride them a lot.

Oh, also, are the rims 100% carbon, or a carbon/aluminum hybrid? Most of the carbon/aluminum hybrid rims are basically aluminum with a carbon cowling for wind, and I wouldn't have a second thought about riding them (although perhaps it is more difficult to see the actual nipple seats).
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Old 05-02-18, 12:39 PM
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Here's the 1st gen Bora:
VeloBase.com - Component: Campagnolo Bora (1st Generation)
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Old 05-02-18, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
So far I've avoided the temptation to ride vintage Spinergy wheels.
If you mean the Rev-X model (the 4 spoke design) anyone who rides them today is very brave
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Old 05-02-18, 12:48 PM
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Here’s my thinking. I’m a materials engineer, but I certainly cant predict everything. So here’s my $0.01. My feeling is that with traditional spoked wheels, any carbon rim material failure will likely start at the rim at one or two spoke nipple locations. If that happens, the carbon will give, causing the nipple to pull out a mm or two to relieve stress. This probably will cause the rim to go out of true but the nipple will likely be retained by the rim, I don’t see the rim completely releasing the nipple and spoke.

It’ll likely happen with you on the bike, as that presents more stress than an unloaded rim. Probably the rear rim under heavy acceleration or maybe front rim under heavy breaking and turning.

You’d likely hear the piano string “ping” and the rim would suddenly be maybe 5-10 mm out of true, rubbing the break pads. IMHO, you’re not looking at a catastrophic rim failure situation... but that’s only if the rim really is in as good a shape as you observe it to be.

I’d ride them for a while on basic training rides or fun runs before bombing down hills at break-neck speeds over rough surfaces.

edit: one easy way to tell if any nipples have given up the ghost is a spoke tension tester. Pretty cheap insurance. Of course, the wheel would likely be out of true already.

If you take the rim tape off, can you see the nipples? Are any spokes screwed into the nipples much deeper than the rest? If so, those areas might have yielded a bit, requiring tensioning in the past.

Last edited by RobotGuy; 05-02-18 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 05-02-18, 01:08 PM
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CliffordK
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Originally Posted by Kontact
Thanks,

Is that 16 spokes front and rear?

I've ridden a Zipp front of similar vintage and survived the ordeal.

I'd be a bit concerned about the low spoke count in the rear. Perhaps also a similarity between the front/rear designs. Are the rims interchangeable?

One thing that Campy did with their current 21 spoke design is give 14 spokes DS (equivalent to a 28 spoke wheel), and 7 spokes NDS where there is less stress.

I suppose one "benefit" of the Campy Bora design is that the front should be stronger than the rear, so less likely to experience a catastrophic failure.
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Old 05-03-18, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
So far I've avoided the temptation to ride vintage Spinergy wheels.

How many spokes do your Campy wheels have? Steel spokes? Aluminum hub flanges (or whole hub?)

I'd wonder if the CF wheels will maintain a good chunk of their original strength. Say 80% for example? Most tests indicate that CF parts are pretty resistant to cumulative fatigue effects, but if the wheels have been ridden for 20+ years, that could add up a bit.
The trick is if the wheels are really in that good shape, they probably haven't been ridden, so they don't really have fatigue effects. Fatigue occurs when the loading changes, such as from riding. Given that they're in near perfect shape, they probably haven't been ridden.

I wouldn't trust them for mountain descents, but that's because of the resin available. I wouldn't have trusted them brand new in 1996 either, for mountain descending. General flat land use, no worries.
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Old 05-03-18, 06:51 PM
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"Vintage carbon wheels" Really...

Maybe wood? Andy
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Old 05-03-18, 09:49 PM
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It looks like you are very eager to hear a positive answer. I think if you really want to use it, you must use it with caution.
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Old 05-03-18, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Ritalalala
It looks like you are very eager to hear a positive answer. I think if you really want to use it, you must use it with caution.
What is your concern with the older Boras?
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Old 05-04-18, 05:46 AM
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Like anything called carbon, they are really just CF reinforced plastic. Plastic gets brittle with age.
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Old 05-04-18, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rydabent
Like anything called carbon, they are really just CF reinforced plastic. Plastic gets brittle with age.
That's really not true in the time periods and plastics we're talking about.
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Old 05-06-18, 03:10 PM
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They'll be fine, until they asplode...
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Old 05-06-18, 03:46 PM
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The problem is, I don't think you can tell at a glance whether or not they are in good shape. Many sellers also have a way of managing to find just the right time to put things out to pasture. So if it is extremely good deal I would try it but if you are not getting great deal on these like 50 bucks for the set or something like that then forget it.
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Old 05-06-18, 07:36 PM
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I bought some '90s carbon race wheels of obscure brand for cheap on ebay.

The seller happened to be nearby so the transaction happened in person.

I got a decent amount of use out of them, but I think replaced a bearing, the hub design wasn't great, & the brake tracks were worn.

Eventually broke a spoke & I gave up- now use the rims to stretch tires.

Nothing catastrophic happened.
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Old 05-06-18, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Oneder
The problem is, I don't think you can tell at a glance whether or not they are in good shape. Many sellers also have a way of managing to find just the right time to put things out to pasture. So if it is extremely good deal I would try it but if you are not getting great deal on these like 50 bucks for the set or something like that then forget it.
agreed. I’d guess rims might be a better bet than, say, used forks just because the spokes are under tension so if one pulled out you’d see the rim twang right out of true.

I dunno, I have a tough time using old carbon bits, no matter. maybe I’m just old.
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Old 05-06-18, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by gsa103
The trick is if the wheels are really in that good shape, they probably haven't been ridden, so they don't really have fatigue effects. Fatigue occurs when the loading changes, such as from riding. Given that they're in near perfect shape, they probably haven't been ridden.
It is quite possible they were used as "race-day" wheels. So, ridden hard for a few days a year, otherwise in storage most of the time, and just became old with disuse.

The brake tracks should give an indication of how much use they've had.
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Old 05-06-18, 09:11 PM
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Structurally I bet they're just fine, but I'd avoid high speed descents because there's been a lot of development on resin tech since these were made, and they were still trying to improve it before discs have made it almost moot.

Those old brake tracks won't be able to handle a great deal of heat.
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Old 11-10-19, 06:49 AM
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Thanks all. Virtually no pad wear, indicating low use. This gives me a lot of confidence. Obviously keep an eye out for cracks but it’s good to know a worst case scenario begins with going out of true (crack at nipple) and not the whole wheel suddenly exploding. (I always wear a helmet anyway )
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Old 11-10-19, 08:33 AM
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I know several original Kestrels which have now been in continuous use for thirty years. These would be original Kestrels, built by the Trimble brothers. Chinese built Kestrels fail early and predictably. Build quality matters. Plastic does not last forever. When used well it lasts quite a long time.
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Old 11-10-19, 09:13 AM
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Been thinking about it for a year and a half?

Ride those things!
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