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I REST MY CASE: Friction differences between 1X and 2X drivetrains

Road Cycling ďIt is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.Ē -- Ernest Hemingway

I REST MY CASE: Friction differences between 1X and 2X drivetrains

Old 05-03-19, 09:20 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
The big thing though for me is too many readers are not realizing that their 50/34 2x system would show just about the same numbers as the 1x system when compared to the 53/39 that was tested.
The way I understand it, as observed in other tests, larger rings are more efficient. So a 42 ring (perfect single replacement for a compact double set) would be more efficient than the 34, and less efficient than the 50... in other words a wash.

If the reviewers had simply added a 50/34 to the mix, then it would have kept some perspective that it's just the current state of 1x and not what 1x might be when road derailleurs can handle the range of gears on the back that will be needed to match the ratios given by the 53/39 they tested.
Plus, not everyone wants or needs to match the range of a 39/53 system. That for me is the real reason to run 1x. Keep close ratios within a narrower range. Why carry extra gears, complexity, and weight you don't need?

Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Some of that is the chain, and some is the RD, the tension on a Sram Force 1x is by my estimation double the tension of a shimano 6800 RD in low tension position(stock position). You can increase the cage tension by moving the spring mount location to reduce chain bounce in rough terrain at the cost of increased friction
https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...lleur-overhaul
I don't see a reason to run a high tension RD on the road. None of my 1x's have one. It seems a narrow/wide chainring does the job of chain retention just fine, and doesn't add any friction to the system.
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Old 05-04-19, 05:00 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
48 tooth big ring on a 2x would probably show close to the same as the 1x with a 48 on the front. The test was absolutely apples and oranges in comparison.

It would have been more reasonable to compare a 50/34 front to the 48 1x. Otherwise the 1x should have been a 53 front IMO just like the 53 big ring on the 2x.

By choosing the 2x system with the biggest chain ring size difference they sorta skewed their results.
I had the same reaction as you did. I use a 1x on my gravel bike but with a 44 in the front, not the tested 48 and my road bikes run 50/34 compact and not the 53/39. When I lived in Michigan (pretty flat), I took the 39 off my road crank and put a 42 on, for a 53/42 and an 11-23 cassette. Where I live now, with a lot of 12% road and trail, none of that would work.
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Old 05-04-19, 08:39 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
You know, it didn't even register with me that it was a true apples-to-oranges comparison-- SRAM 1X vs Shimano 2X. Almost as if SRAM 2X and Shimano 1X don't exist.

This whole "test" was terrible.
My thought exactly. They couldn't at least have compared to a 2x SRAM Force setup?

My take away was that Shimano has less friction than SRAM. Iím glad my 1x bike has Shimano gears!
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Old 05-04-19, 01:44 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Banzai View Post
Letís not forget that the 1x was SRAMís marketing solution for the fact that they couldnít design competitive front shifting.
Probably some truth there.

But novelty substitutes for progress very nicely in the bike world, while generating sales from all of those 'upgrades'.

If people actually worn out their stuff, the bike industry would be about 1/5th the size.
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Old 05-04-19, 04:57 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Nebraska is actually quite unflat...it ranks about 25th in flatness of the states...as opposed to Florida that is number 1.

Gravel World's, around My Fair City has 12,000ft of climbing over 150miles
We're not the hilliest or the flattest in Nebraska, but we do have the most wind.

https://beef2live.com/story-states-least-wind-0-122176
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Old 05-04-19, 09:27 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
I found this more interesting than the original article about 1x vs. 2x
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Old 05-04-19, 10:30 PM
  #57  
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Triple is the way to go. I never run out of gears and my chain line always looks beautiful.
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Old 05-05-19, 12:38 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
You know, it didn't even register with me that it was a true apples-to-oranges comparison-- SRAM 1X vs Shimano 2X. Almost as if SRAM 2X and Shimano 1X don't exist.

This whole "test" was terrible.
I know why people might think SRAM 2x doesn't exist...
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Old 05-06-19, 11:21 AM
  #59  
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My commuter bike is a Shimano 1x. It took a while to find a good front ring & cassette combo, but I think I'm finally there. I don't usually have hills in my commute so the spread is pretty good. My road bike will stay 2x for the foreseeable future.
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Old 05-06-19, 05:10 PM
  #60  
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the weigh saving of 1x is minimal at best, you have to use a larger cassette that usually offset the weight of a FD and small chainring
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Old 05-06-19, 05:45 PM
  #61  
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I've been doing an apples to apples comparison on my gravel bike, swapped the r8000 nonclutched RD for the rx800 clutched RD. With the clutch off I'd guess the spring is 1.5x stronger than the r8000. How much that translates to watts in the exact same gear is hard to quantify but spinning on the stand there is some noticeable drag. When the clutch is on there isn't any noticeable additional drag except when shifting where the clutch resists pedalling for a split second. Will probably leave the clutch off for road riding and only turn the clutch on for gravel. Overall happier with the shimano rx800 compared to the sram force cx1 in terms of drag and performance FWIW 1x or 2x.
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Old 05-06-19, 10:23 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
I shared the article on Facebook. One of my friends joked about the loss of watts. i pointed out that in order to lose watts he must first actually have watts. This all contributes to this fallacy of tech. I'm a tech driven guy, hell it's my actual job in this industry, but I kind of feel like I'm some sort of 80's coked out stock broker who woke up in 2019 broke, divorced 3 times and staring at an AARP card he got in the mail. We all know the tech doesn't matter nearly as much as what we want to think it does.
There's a progression:
1. New tech comes out
2. It is widely discussed

From there it goes a few different ways.

Sometimes...
3. It works well
4. Everyone adopts it
5. It becomes "boring" to talk about because it's obvious and everyone is using it
Examples: Air Filled Tires, Biking is Faster Than Jogging, Significantly Lighter Bikes Are Faster Than Significantly Heavier Bikes, Chains with oil

Or...
3. It works worse
4. Some people adopt it
5. Those people have invested mental and social energy into the new thing and try to maintain that they made a good choice by outarguing everyone else

Or...
3. It works basically the same
4. Some people adopt it
5. Those people have invested mental and social energy in the new thing and get into a status "which is better" battle over 2 things that are basically the same

When new tech actually works it gets talked about for a while then it sticks around but it's not "cool" to talk about it much any more.
When new tech doesn't provide an advantage or is even slightly worse, the arguments about it go on forever.
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Old 05-07-19, 08:18 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Chi_Z View Post
the weigh saving of 1x is minimal at best, you have to use a larger cassette that usually offset the weight of a FD and small chainring
Eh... no it's not. It's the front shifter guts, the front cable housing, the front cable, front derail, and the inner chainring and longer chainring bolts and usually heavier crank spider. The difference in weight on the cassette isn't comparable int hat scenario. In reality the differences in weight on the cassettes of what most people run in 1x for cross is minimal at best.

Now....1x for cross eliminates quite a few failure points: breaking your front shifter, kicking in the front derail, jamming the chain, snapping your front derail cable, front cable freezing, etc.

We don't ride 1x in cross because of fashion. There is a real need. For years it was next to impossible to keep your chain from dropping while racing. Not because of any adjustment, etc but because of the bouncing around, kicking it from poor technique, etc. 1x eliminated that. In the early years of 1x I was cobbling together systems to make them work. Racers lined up to make their own home made systems. A lot of what ended up being the SRAM 1x (CX1) lineup came directly from what we were all doing here in Chicago on our cross scene as the engineers were racing beside us and watching and trying stuff as well. 1x in cross was completely groundbreaking and revolutionary to the sport - at least at the amateur levels.

I honestly believe it's a complete waste on road. It does simplify the system but it adds so much bulk that just isn't needed on the road. We're not dismounting and remounting the bikes. They aren't getting jammed up with mud. There's a reason cross 1x stuff looks like mtb stuff - it handles a lot of the same stuff. We just don't need that on the road.
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Old 05-07-19, 08:21 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
There's a progression:
When new tech actually works it gets talked about for a while then it sticks around but it's not "cool" to talk about it much any more.
When new tech doesn't provide an advantage or is even slightly worse, the arguments about it go on forever.
Yup. This is why I hate discussing that stuff. If it's not a unilateral "wow, this is better" for almost everyone then we will always debate it. That, by its essence, means it's not as great of a change as the supporters would believe. I just wish some people would recognize that and just simply go, "I found it groundbreaking for me and I absolutely adore it and can't imagine not having it anymore," and move on. Not everyone experiences the sport int eh same way even though we try and silo them into our own factions continuously.
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Old 05-07-19, 08:47 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Eh... no it's not. It's the front shifter guts, the front cable housing, the front cable, front derail, and the inner chainring and longer chainring bolts and usually heavier crank spider. The difference in weight on the cassette isn't comparable int hat scenario. In reality the differences in weight on the cassettes of what most people run in 1x for cross is minimal at best.

Now....1x for cross eliminates quite a few failure points: breaking your front shifter, kicking in the front derail, jamming the chain, snapping your front derail cable, front cable freezing, etc.

We don't ride 1x in cross because of fashion. There is a real need. For years it was next to impossible to keep your chain from dropping while racing. Not because of any adjustment, etc but because of the bouncing around, kicking it from poor technique, etc. 1x eliminated that. In the early years of 1x I was cobbling together systems to make them work. Racers lined up to make their own home made systems. A lot of what ended up being the SRAM 1x (CX1) lineup came directly from what we were all doing here in Chicago on our cross scene as the engineers were racing beside us and watching and trying stuff as well. 1x in cross was completely groundbreaking and revolutionary to the sport - at least at the amateur levels.

I honestly believe it's a complete waste on road. It does simplify the system but it adds so much bulk that just isn't needed on the road. We're not dismounting and remounting the bikes. They aren't getting jammed up with mud. There's a reason cross 1x stuff looks like mtb stuff - it handles a lot of the same stuff. We just don't need that on the road.

No...it didn't eliminate dropped chains. Just ask Aqua Blue Sport

Lose a front mech, but you often still need a chain catcher. Lose a chainring, gain a heavier larger cassette. The amount of weight you actually save is tiny. Also Narrow wide rings tend to wear faster.
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Old 05-07-19, 09:31 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
No...it didn't eliminate dropped chains. Just ask Aqua Blue Sport

Lose a front mech, but you often still need a chain catcher. Lose a chainring, gain a heavier larger cassette. The amount of weight you actually save is tiny. Also Narrow wide rings tend to wear faster.
Agreed it doesn't eliminate chain drops without a chain device - never said we didn't use them all the time but I didn't include them in the comparative weight "analysis". Probably because I don't care. 1x works better for cross. You can't use a captive chain catcher unless you're running 1x and that's the only way to eliminate chain drops 100% - and it does eliminate chain drops 100%.

Like I said above though - I still think it's pretty stupid for road.

The problem that SRAM is running into though is that they have been completely hitched to the 1x ideology so much so that I now have to correct riders and customers when talking about groups because they'll say something like, "yeah I thought about the AXS group but I don't want to go 1x" - "You know it's also a 2x group don't you?" "It is? I had no idea." No good can come from not emphasizing that fact to the public. They even talk about the front derail change to allow for greater clearance for wider tires but still people come away from the marketing thinking it's only available as 1x.

Fun story - was walking the pro area at Jingle Cross a couple of years back. Wanted to say hey to Ellen Noble (long story but we kinda of Internet know each other) so I walk over to the Rapha tent and sidestep the line for Jeremy Powers. Ellen goes, "HEY Rob! Nice to see you!" We start talking a bunch and right in the middle of this a friend of mine from SRAM who is a fellow racer here and an engineering manager or head of engineering there is hanging in their compound and sees me. "HEY ROB - What have you been seeing int he pits with all the mud here". He just cut in and keeps going. Ellen looks at me like "OK.....I guess we're done" and mouths "bye/nice seeing you" and walks away.

Turns out he left his chain fall device sitting at home on the table. Sure enough the mud pushed the chain up and off the ring and he was left there scrambling during his race to get it back on. "You know everyone is starting at me fighting this chain and thinking to themselves about how this was supposed to solve all that but I've always told people the only way you can prevent it from happening is to use a chain device. I've never said otherwise. I just forgot mine."
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