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Are you limited by your gut?

Old 08-17-19, 12:39 AM
  #26  
Princess_Allez
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Sometimes my knees hit my gut when I'm pedaling in the drops, so ya, I kinda am
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Old 08-17-19, 01:54 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Fargo Wolf
Of course I'm limited by my gut. It's no fun cycling hungry, thus justifying a beer ( or beers) and a bite. ^^
but hungry doesn't come from the gut. Hungry comes from the brain.

which is also why many people are over weight, they have a food addiction. Which comes from the brain, not the gut.
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Old 08-17-19, 11:32 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
but hungry doesn't come from the gut. Hungry comes from the brain.

which is also why many people are over weight, they have a food addiction. Which comes from the brain, not the gut.
Please tell people who have starved to death in concentration camps that hunger was all in their brain. Oh, you can't because they're dead.
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Old 08-18-19, 12:05 AM
  #29  
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Here's the thing. This article was linked in a general cycling forum with a thread title asking if "you" are limited by your gut. That invites the answer that as regards thee and me, this isn't telling us anything we didn't already know as a practical matter. We're going to be limited by something else long before this effect kicks in.

If you actually read the study, btw, none of this is very clear cut because it appears that the body has mechanisms for reducing metabolism during these events which are not well understood.

This likely has no implications for space travel, btw. The problem there is reduced body mass occurring because the lack of gravity is actually demanding too little of the body. It's got nothing to do with making demands beyond what the body can absorb. Pretty much the opposite. Space is zero gravity and Mars' gravity is one third of earth's. We lose bone density and muscle mass in such environments regardless of what we might eat.
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Old 08-18-19, 02:20 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Please tell people who have starved to death in concentration camps that hunger was all in their brain. Oh, you can't because they're dead.
pretty sure it was malnutrition that killed them, not hunger.
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Old 08-18-19, 02:47 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Metieval
pretty sure it was malnutrition that killed them, not hunger.


You can play these word games all you want, but eating when you are hungry is manifestly NOT a symptom of "food addiction."
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Old 08-18-19, 04:21 AM
  #32  
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Let's keep the conversation civil and non personal.
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Old 08-19-19, 08:46 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Princess_Allez
Sometimes my knees hit my gut when I'm pedaling in the drops, so ya, I kinda am
As long as you can't steer your handlebars with your gut, you'll be OK.
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Old 08-19-19, 12:15 PM
  #34  
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I would have to think that maximum energy uptake would vary with the actual food one is eating.

So, the consumption of monosaccharides and disaccharides (glucose, fructose, sucrose, etc) would lead to rapid absorption. Are there simple ketone bodies that could be rapidly absorbed?

Once absorbed, then it all depends on what the body does with that energy.
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Old 08-19-19, 08:35 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
I would have to think that maximum energy uptake would vary with the actual food one is eating.

So, the consumption of monosaccharides and disaccharides (glucose, fructose, sucrose, etc) would lead to rapid absorption. Are there simple ketone bodies that could be rapidly absorbed?

Once absorbed, then it all depends on what the body does with that energy.
I would wonder if it's less the simple process of absorption and more the process of absorption, integration and elimination ie. the complete cycle.
And, it has to do with extended multi day efforts. While someone can fuel a one off maximal effort on simple sugars far beyond their 2.5 BMR, I think doing that long term would mess with blood sugar levels in a dangerous way. It would seem the emphasis is less on sugars than fats and carbs and proteins.

Here's a link to an article about some work in the area. https://www.outsideonline.com/236566...rctic-crossing

and a quote (bolding mine):

There are innumerable details that could have been improved on Scott’s expedition, but the fundamental problem was that they were woefully short on calories. Scott’s rations added up to between 4,200 and 4,600 calories per day. No one really knew how many calories a polar expedition like this burns until Mike Stroud—one of the authors of the 2012 paper—and Ranulph Fiennes made a two-person unsupported 1,600-mile crossing of Antarctica in 1992 and 1993. Careful measurements of energy consumption using isotope-labeled water showed that they were burning an astounding 7,000 calories a day for 96 days. During one ten-day period while they ascended the plateau, they averaged 11,000 calories a day. Even though they were eating 5,000 calories a day, they lost 48 and 54 pounds respectively during the trip.

The solution—take more calories—seems obvious, but the problem once again is the weight of additional food.

And perhaps reaching the upper limit of what the body can supply from that food.
In this recent attempt the explorer ate about 8000 calories a day but still lost about 26 pounds over 96 days, suggesting the body simply could not provide the calories from food needed even though he was physically eating them. It's an interesting read if you're into this stuff.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 08-19-19 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 08-19-19, 09:14 PM
  #36  
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Feet,
We found the same during Race Across America in weight loss from the ride. It seems as humans we can prepare for the exertion, but the weight loss is going to be there regardless of the caloric intake. For some reason the body uses all of it's reserves in these endurance events and we don't currently know why. It is going to be a great research program that find the answer, but for now it is just another study into the program. Smiles,MH
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Old 08-19-19, 11:20 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk
Feet,
We found the same during Race Across America in weight loss from the ride. It seems as humans we can prepare for the exertion, but the weight loss is going to be there regardless of the caloric intake. For some reason the body uses all of it's reserves in these endurance events and we don't currently know why. It is going to be a great research program that find the answer, but for now it is just another study into the program. Smiles,MH


Yep. I doubt one study will provide all the answers or even that this number is "the" number but it's good to see people researching for facts to back up supposition.

There is second part to the above article that talks about gut inflammation and systemic breakdown from overwhelming it with food that irritates it leading to thoughts that food choice, long term, and not just calorie volume is also important.

Apparently it's more complicated than just eating lots and lots of pop tarts.
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Old 08-20-19, 11:43 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk
Feet,
We found the same during Race Across America in weight loss from the ride. It seems as humans we can prepare for the exertion, but the weight loss is going to be there regardless of the caloric intake. For some reason the body uses all of it's reserves in these endurance events and we don't currently know why. It is going to be a great research program that find the answer, but for now it is just another study into the program. Smiles,MH
Who's this "we"? Your body always uses some glycogen to power physical efforts unless you are riding at very low intensities, and stored glycogen is "ready to go". Whereas there are metabolic costs to digesting even simple carbohydrates and processing them into glycogen, which puts a limit on how much you can take in during the effort.
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Old 08-20-19, 01:29 PM
  #39  
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I could imagine a lot of spin-offs of this research.

#1 : The big racing teams will go to just about any length to get that extra performance boost.

#2 : The Sports Energy Drink market is HUGE. Develop a new drink specifically for the TDF, and people will buy it to ride their beach cruiser around the block.

I am still leaning towards deigning a custom drink that will have simple nutrients that are easily absorbed by the intestines.

Simple sugars, salts, minerals, etc.

Rather than relying on catabolic energy, one's energy should come from slow infusion from one's energy drinks.

Cut down on the water consumed. Just energy drinks. And, sip a little at a time, continuously.

Will we finally see Camel Backs in the Pro Pelotons?

Thinking a bit about @Happy Feet's comments. It is likely that our energy reserves go through a two-step process.

Anabolic phase (build glycogen, muscle, fat,etc)
Catabolic phase (release nutrients from energy stores (liver, fat, muscle, etc)).

The goal would then be to bypass the Anabolic/Catabolic cycles, and slowly consume energy, absorbed directly into the blood, and consumed by muscles.

As @Happy Feet also mentions, gut irritation? Perhaps also flora overgrowth. So, flood the guts with pure glucose, corn syrup, sucrose, etc... and one might see everything on overdrive from flora to everything else.

But, it would be easy to throw just about anything off-kilter.

It has been a while since I've done much running. But, one of the things I noticed with Marathons (even with my plodding pace) was that at the end of the race, those Space Blankets were very nice.

I concluded that my body had lost the ability to regulate its temperature. It only lasted for maybe a half hour before I was able to get on my bike and ride home. But, it is a pretty extraordinary feeling.

I could imagine some mighty sick cyclists rolling across the finish line after a 5 hour race, and glucose values jumping all over the place. One might end up treating them like diabetics (what would WADA think of that?)
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Old 08-20-19, 01:59 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
I could imagine a lot of spin-offs of this research.

#1 : The big racing teams will go to just about any length to get that extra performance boost.

#2 : The Sports Energy Drink market is HUGE. Develop a new drink specifically for the TDF, and people will buy it to ride their beach cruiser around the block.

I am still leaning towards deigning a custom drink that will have simple nutrients that are easily absorbed by the intestines.

Simple sugars, salts, minerals, etc.

Rather than relying on catabolic energy, one's energy should come from slow infusion from one's energy drinks.

Cut down on the water consumed. Just energy drinks. And, sip a little at a time, continuously.

Will we finally see Camel Backs in the Pro Pelotons?

Thinking a bit about @Happy Feet's comments. It is likely that our energy reserves go through a two-step process.

Anabolic phase (build glycogen, muscle, fat,etc)
Catabolic phase (release nutrients from energy stores (liver, fat, muscle, etc)).

The goal would then be to bypass the Anabolic/Catabolic cycles, and slowly consume energy, absorbed directly into the blood, and consumed by muscles.

As @Happy Feet also mentions, gut irritation? Perhaps also flora overgrowth. So, flood the guts with pure glucose, corn syrup, sucrose, etc... and one might see everything on overdrive from flora to everything else.

But, it would be easy to throw just about anything off-kilter.

It has been a while since I've done much running. But, one of the things I noticed with Marathons (even with my plodding pace) was that at the end of the race, those Space Blankets were very nice.

I concluded that my body had lost the ability to regulate its temperature. It only lasted for maybe a half hour before I was able to get on my bike and ride home. But, it is a pretty extraordinary feeling.

I could imagine some mighty sick cyclists rolling across the finish line after a 5 hour race, and glucose values jumping all over the place. One might end up treating them like diabetics (what would WADA think of that?)
I heard that there's a very exotic sports drink that some TdF riders use in an effort to keep energy up--I believe its name is something like Coca Cola.
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Old 08-20-19, 06:45 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
I could imagine a lot of spin-offs of this research.

#1 : The big racing teams will go to just about any length to get that extra performance boost.

#2 : The Sports Energy Drink market is HUGE. Develop a new drink specifically for the TDF, and people will buy it to ride their beach cruiser around the block.

I am still leaning towards deigning a custom drink that will have simple nutrients that are easily absorbed by the intestines.

Simple sugars, salts, minerals, etc.

Rather than relying on catabolic energy, one's energy should come from slow infusion from one's energy drinks.

Cut down on the water consumed. Just energy drinks. And, sip a little at a time, continuously.

Will we finally see Camel Backs in the Pro Pelotons?

Thinking a bit about @Happy Feet's comments. It is likely that our energy reserves go through a two-step process.

Anabolic phase (build glycogen, muscle, fat,etc)
Catabolic phase (release nutrients from energy stores (liver, fat, muscle, etc)).

The goal would then be to bypass the Anabolic/Catabolic cycles, and slowly consume energy, absorbed directly into the blood, and consumed by muscles.

As @Happy Feet also mentions, gut irritation? Perhaps also flora overgrowth. So, flood the guts with pure glucose, corn syrup, sucrose, etc... and one might see everything on overdrive from flora to everything else.

But, it would be easy to throw just about anything off-kilter.

It has been a while since I've done much running. But, one of the things I noticed with Marathons (even with my plodding pace) was that at the end of the race, those Space Blankets were very nice.

I concluded that my body had lost the ability to regulate its temperature. It only lasted for maybe a half hour before I was able to get on my bike and ride home. But, it is a pretty extraordinary feeling.

I could imagine some mighty sick cyclists rolling across the finish line after a 5 hour race, and glucose values jumping all over the place. One might end up treating them like diabetics (what would WADA think of that?)
In terms of tailored made nutrition: one of the article linked was about polar explorer O'Brady and a company Standard Process that looked at his digestive reactions to certain food types and then made a custom mix of nutrient bar that would be calorie dense yet least likely to cause gut irritation.

My undersanding is that some foods cause irritation or upset that most people get over with perhaps a feeling of bloating or integestion because they only eat one moderate sized meal of it but if you force the gut to eat those same foods repeatedly and to digest them non stop for extended periods it can lead to outcomes like infection and toxic shock syndrome. The gut lining becomes irritated and festers/breaks down. This is similar to Crones disease or IBS.

Once they (O'Brady/SP) got the profile right they made enough prepackaged bars for his whole 96 day trip. In that article he/they explain the dynamic between bringing enough food of the right quality in a mass that can be hauled by one person.

The drink idea was broached in the 2014 Trans Am race Documentary Inspired to Ride when Canadian Jason Lane tried to fuel his attempt by liquid nutrition. Not a bad result either considering he came in a close second to Mike Hall, who was no slouch.

The drink idea has also been explored by a company called Soylent that set out to make a truly complete meal replacement in both liquid and solid forms (shake and bar). They have had some difficulties with bowel problems when people go 100% on their product but it's intersting to see people looking at these sorts of challenges.

I don't see this really effecting TdF so much but more for extended bicycle expeditions, especially in the polar regions where fat bikes are making this more and more prevalent. And the trickle down of understanding how much calories people expend and the way the body processes fuel will help tailor better overall dietary regimes as well.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 08-20-19 at 06:59 PM.
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