alex2074

So I have a 1987 Raleigh Supercourse that I have been riding since 1987. It is very comfortable and I never had an issue with it, until recently when I realized that nobody makes good 27 inch tires anymore (get flats all the time with the garbage that is available now), the wheels are bent to heck with quite a bit of friction from the ball bearings, and the brakes are actually quite capricious. So... I went and bought a new Trek Domane SL5 gen4 60cm. The only thing Trek does for a fitting is adjust the seat, which they did, but all they did was set the seat height to the same as my old bike. here are the things I noticed on my first ride; my lower back hurt, my legs were extending too far, my upper body was stretched too far, and it felt like my legs were rotating around a 2foot crank. I took some measurements and noticed a few things. The bottom bracket of the Trek is 1inch lower than my old bike and the cranks are slightly longer. So it appears that some minor adjustment will be required, and possibly even some major adjustments like crank replacement and stem adjustment in addition to simply lowering the saddle. So I am wondering if anybody has been in this situation where you think buying a new bike will be great then you find out you feel better on your old classic. And how many people who do buy a modern bike need to get it fitted by a professional 'fitter'. It is interesting that the Domane is supposed to be designed for comfort and not give you as much of a stretch like in racing, but even the Domane dimensions seem to me to be uncomfortable. I am also wondering if the same issue would occur with Specialized and Giant, or any other make for that matter. For reference, I'm 6'2".

SW84

May I ask why you didn't just perform repairs on your '87?

alcjphil

You have discovered that bike fit isn't just a matter of setting the saddle height. Longer crank arms require the saddle be set lower, particularly if your new bike has a shallower seat tube angle and possibly a seat post with more setback. Longer crank arms are something you may or may not get used to. When I started cycling back just after the earths crust had cooled, 170 mm crank arms were used on most road bikes. When I migrated to 172.5 mm crank arms, I had a few months of adaptation, but that was a minor adjustment, I just found at first that the larger circle I had to pedal made it a bit more difficult to maintain higher cadences. Lower bottom bracket height can be beneficial to handling, giving you a lower centre of gravity. Stem length also play in here, a shorter stem can deal with the feeling of being too stretched out, or if your saddle is too far behind the bottom bracket for your body dimensions, simply sliding it forward a few mm can make a positive difference. I suggest that you go back to the shop where you bought the bike and tell them about your issues. If they have some experienced staff, they may be able to provide a basic fit at little to no charge, particularly if you explain that you have been cycling for 36 years and know what fits you best
One lesson I learned from my sister in law who is the best person to go out to dinner with: When we have been seated in a crappy location, she will always ask if a better table is available, often it is. Her theory: "If you don't ask, you don't get"

alex2074

SW84, no repairs are needed as such, its just that you cant get good tires for a 27" wheel, and getting parts for 27" bikes isnt easy any longer. And as I said, too much friction in the wheels is causing me grief keeping up with my buddies on modern bikes. I figured I'd jump in and see what happens. little did I know.

Black wallnut 

Getting box store service before the sale from a LBS makes me wonder how the LBS remains in business. My LBS spends time with each customer buying a bike with a fitting, more than just a saddle adjustment. It might be worthwhile to go back to the shop that sold you the bike and get a more proper fit. AT least knee and hip angle and reach. Just that should get you close to comfortable and from there some small tweaking may be needed.

Iride01 

What size was your old Raleigh? When you rode it did you mostly keep your hands on the tops of the bars? If so, then perhaps you aren't ready to give up the more upright position for a moderately aero position. If that's the case then the Domane is the wrong bike.

However if your riding in the past wasn't frequent, and you are now getting to the point where you want to ride more both in time and distance, then the Domane might be something you'll get use to and find you actually prefer after you get a few thousand miles behind you.

Welcome to BF.

icemilkcoffee 

I just assume that whenever I buy a bicycle, I would have to replace the seat, replace the pedals, adjust the seat height and most likely replace the stem and handlebars as well. Changing the crankset to a different length is also not particularly unusual. (With the modern style of Shimano cranksets- it's easy to change cranksets anyways) This is not the fault of this or that bike brand. This is just the nature of bicycles, that the 'touch points' need to be adjusted or personalized for each individual.

prj71

Sounds like you weren't set up with the proper size bike. Geometry has changed a little but not that much in the road bike world.

veganbikes

Maybe you can't get good tires for some odd reason but I can get them quite easily and could get them for you. There are 4 different Continental tires, a couple Schwalbes, at least two Panaracers and a Vittoria as well as a Michelin and Kenda has a bunch of options. Plus 11 front wheels 13 rear wheels and 3 wheelsets plus you can get 13 rims and build with whatever hubs you want and that is all brand new stuff...

In terms of other parts those are easy enough to get IRD makes high end freewheels and Shimano and Sunrace and others make low initial cost ones, Dia Compe makes dedicated friction shifters but Shimano and Microshift makes friction convertible shifters and I think Rivendell and probably some others have options for shifters, there are more derailleurs you can shake a stick at that will work just fine for friction and even a low end one designed around 13t freewheels. However I can also upgrade and run it with a more modern gruppo. Heck with SRAM eTap/AXS I can run a wireless gruppo with a little cold setting at the rear and plenty of long reach brakes that could potentially be used to convert it to 700c which people have done if you really love the bike. You could also run it as a single speed or fixed gear easily if you wanted to do that. I mean there are so many options unless the frame is damaged or just worn out.

When KoolStop stops making all the vintage pads they make and Chris King stops making the GripNut headset and Continental stops making 27" tires then maybe I will concede vintage bikes are on the way out but I probably won't because they probably won't.

In terms of fitting you probably need a fit for your new bike, that is not uncommon and really something just about every rider should do. Most shops are going to just adjust the saddle position because generally most sales folks and mechanics haven't had a chance to also study fit which is a lot of work and many shops do not have the space or money and resources to have a fitter on staff. It would be nice but it isn't realistic.

PeteHski

Bike fit is pretty much independent of bike age. They either fit you properly or they don't. It sounds like your Domane needs a more thorough fitting, assuming it's even the right basic size. Different manufacturers also have differing ideas of how stack and reach should progress with frame size. So they don't all fit quite the same in a nominal frame size.

masi61

Thanks to veganbikes for articulating how continuing to run 27" wheels is still valid. I agree with this and think that it is definitely do-able to make your old 27" wheels "not slow". I was going to get some Continental Super Sport 27's for my Puch Marco Polo. I even thought about using 700c latex inner tubes in them for lowered rolling resistance. With that said, I think it might be worth trial fitting a set of 700c wheels on your Super Course. Brake clearance may be just fine with the 700c wheels or you might have to use long reach brake calipers. Personally, my current favorite road tires are all tubeless or at the very least "open tubular" designs that you can't get in 27" size. If you indeed are able to have adequate braking with the 700c wheels on your Super Course, I would encourage you to trick this bike out more to your liking. In the mean time, you may also be adapting to your modern bike.

genejockey 

It's not the modernity of the bike that's the problem, it's the fit. I measure everything very carefully and try to keep all the important measurements - the contact points, basically - within a fairly small range. There's so much more to it than just saddle height!

SurferRosa

Panaracer Paselas are very good tires. Sun makes very good 27" rims. Vintage hubs can last basically forever.

Or make the conversion to 700c with a longer reach brakeset.

alex2074

I really appreciate everyone's input. thank you. I do intend to get a fitting done. Apparently these 'fittings' are quite involved and high tech, something that bike sellers wouldn't have typically.


With respect to veganbikes' comments about what is out there for 27 inchers, I really had no idea, perhaps I will look into it. My garage isnt a bike shop and I dont tinker. But concerning the tires in particular, I do have panaracers, and I hate them. They are not only super difficult to get on and off, but the sidewalls are like tissue paper. My previous tire was a Bontraeger and they lasted ten years. Sadly they left that market. If there was a good market still around, presumably they would have stayed in. And no local bike shop sells 27" tires, I have to get everything online. I should mention that I require 1 1/8 tires, and that is really the issue. 1 1/4 are easily available, but they wont fit my wheels. I could get different wheels as suggested.


If I did replace my 27" wheels with 700mm, that would be an extra 0.6 inches of caliper extension. Not sure if my calipers can be adjusted that far out. But it doesn't seem so far as to make it unstable and unsafe. One thing my bike will not allow me to do is go up in tire size, and I would probably be stuck with 25mm max. My new bike has 32mm and the fork will allow 38.


With respect to Iride01 comments about bike size. My Raleigh is a large. I have had comments from people about how large my frame is. I feel comfortable both up and down on the bars. Ive set the brake location so I can hang out on them just like modern riders do. One thing I notice about the brakes that is really different between old and new designs; On my old bike I can put two fingers on the brake and two fingers around the bar and squeeze the brakes. this can not be done on modern bikes due to the shifters. I wonder if the guy who first suggested that the brake and shifters be combined got laughed at. The domane design is the recommended design for comfort and distance and basically non-racing. Any other Trek model would be even worse for me, out of the box.

50PlusCycling

A look on eBay shows no shortage of 27” bike parts, many still new in the original packaging. Tire options are fewer, but can still be found. Back in the day it was easy enough to swap to 700c wheels and use an offset adapter to align your brakes. Your original hubs would work better if they aren’t still using the grease packed in them back in 1987. A couple wrenches, some solvent, and some new grease and a couple hours of work will get them spinning freely again.

I just got done working on a ‘64 Moulton Stowaway. The hubs, headset, and bottom bracket were very gritty, and hard to turn, though the bike was ridable. I bought a bunch of ceramic ball bearings on Amazon, and some Shimano grease, and got them installed, and the bike rolls easier. If you think 27” wheels are hard to deal with, 16” wheels are no less difficult.

I am debating putting together a new touring bike. I tried out a new All City Space Horse, and a Jamis Renegade, both are chrome moly, double-butted steel. They offer disc brakes, and wide dropouts, not to mention 11 speed drivelines. Then I tried out an early 80’s Cherubim with a 531 frame and forks, with an old 3x7 driveline, and was amazed at the ride. All 3 bikes have 650b wheels with similar tires. The newer bikes are quicker-steering, but not as stable or smooth. While I would love disc brakes and be able to upgrade to a Di2 driveline (which I use on my other bikes), the old Cherubim would be a better, long-haul bike.

veganbikes

Yes a proper fitting is a dynamic fit and requires a lot of specialist equipment and more importantly knowledge and training to do it right. However it is well worth it.

27" is obsolete in the fact nobody is making bikes with them anymore but they are still quite well supported. A more supple sidewall gives a better ride but less puncture protection, the GatorHardshells or Gatorskins or Marathons will give you more protection but a worse ride. Not super terrible but not as good in narrow widths and still not as good wider but better. Your local shop should be able to order stuff pretty easily. A lot of shops may not carry it anymore just because it really isn't super common and is easy enough to order. No need to tinker your local shop can help out on that front too if you don't want to do the work.

Bontrager does still make 27" tires BTW: https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/e...-tire/p/08860/

Also a useful forum trick put the @ symbol before the person's forum handle to notify them of a mention so it will look like alex2074 but is written with the (at) symbol in front of it.

DMC707

Do you know if they adjusted it from the ground or the measurement from the pedals to the seat

dedhed

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...-thread-7.html

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...nch-tires.html

Or upgrade the whole bike.
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ergos-330.html

alex2074

They said it was from the bottom bracket.

GamblerGORD53

Try turning the stem upside down, to get an inch rise likely. If still wrong, get a shorter one. Yah, lower the seat.
The cranks only changed 10 mm. How the hell is that a problem for a TALL guy??
I'm 5'8" and have used from 165 to 180. Now I have 167, 170 and 175. I do centuries on all of them with an IGH. The 180 did feel like a Cadillac with more torque at lower revs. I had to retire it for other reasons.
You old bike is done, like you said.

t2p

tire that lasted 10 years might be durable - but good chance they are slow and provide a harsh ride

if they laughed at the guy that combined the brakes and shifters it was relatively short lived because basically the entire industry moved in that direction … this was one of the most significant advances in the bicycle drivetrain in the last 30 years

some laughed at the late 80’s Ferrari F1 cars when they placed the shifter paddles on the steering wheel

downtube42

Sore back could be from rocking hips, which is a fit issue. If saddle to BB is the same, longer crankarms effectively raise the saddle; not by much bit it could be a factor.

If they didn't do anything about saddle fore/aft, or about saddle to bar, or bar drop, then contact points are probably way off from the old bike. This also could cause back pain. Don't fool around with back pain.

If you go to a fitter, which I recommend, take both bikes.

As for the old bike, everyone needs a backup bike. I'd upgrade to 700c wheels, go with long reach brakes as needed. There are a crapton of QR 700c used wheelset for sale, as people move to tubeless, upgrade to carbon, or empty their garages of QR as they've moved to thru-hole.

PeteHski

In that case just measure your old bike saddle height from the pedal (with crank at lowest point) and replicate it on your new bike. This will account for the difference in crank length.

Maelochs

I and a lot of people have bikes with old 27" running gear, and a lot of us also have some old 27" bikes converted to modern parts. if you have a really nice frame (by your standards---who cares what anyone else thinks?) then you can keep it alive and healthy. Plenty of good 27" wheels and tires out there.

You can also swap in longer brakes or possibly adjust your current brakes for 700c but if that seems a daunting task ... skip it. No need. I found it easy, but most things others find easy, I find impossible.

As for the Domane ... before you pay $300 for some "pro" to fit you, play with it on your own. It is annoying that a shop sent you down the road with a garbage fit, but ... you know what works, because it worked on your old bike. Make minor adjustments. Also, measure your old bike .... how far back from the pedal spindle is the saddle? How far from saddle center to handlebars? What is bar-saddle drop?

If it were me, first I would play with the saddle location---height and fore-and-aft---until it felt just right (it might still need fine-tuning later, but as good as it can get to start.) Then, propping the bike up (I lean against my washer/dryer with a milk crate under my outside foot so I am stable with one foot on the pedals) I would lean forward as far as I was comfortable, and then see where my hands end up .... on, above, ahead of or behind the bar---and then move the bar (or get a new stem--$20 or $30) to put the bars in the right place.

Jeff Neese

Before you spend money on a "professional" fitting, realize there are many videos you can watch first.

Or maybe start with something simple - take the measurements from your old bike, the one that fits you and you're comfortable on, and set up the new bike with the same measurements. Just the basics - seat height measured from the pedal spindle, reach measured from the saddle to handlebars, and handlebar height relative to the saddle. Get those set up the same as your old bike and see how it feels.