big john

They're not unrealistic if the manufacturers are able to meet them every time. The problems engines have are related to under-engineering, poor QC, and abuse.
Modern engines can last far longer than the stuff from decades ago.

As far as shade tree mechanics, if you want to get educated you can do a lot of stuff at home. I think most people don't want to.

Maelochs

Abase2 is right on with cars. Power output nowadays, and emissions output are so high and so low that "souping up" and engine for any sort of reasonable street-legal driving is unnecessary, despite all the "anti-smog." Manufacturing tolerances are so tight, "balanced and blueprinted" is only a factor if you plan to run at a track or strip. Specific output (HP per CC or Cu in) is higher out of the factory than some of the "hot" engines a few decades ago. A Ford Fiesta (or some such baseline ford) with a turbo package a few years back out out Better numbers than the original 930 Porsche (the first Porsche Turbo) of the middle 70s. This, for a Ford econobox available for under $30K ... and by better numbers, I mean not just HP and torque, I mean drivability and especially handling .... the Porsche was notorious for oversteer, power on and power off, and a tough car to learn to control ... while, with modern computer-aided suspension design and modern production tolerances, the front-drive Ford stuck better, stopped better, accelerated the same ..... the same a the "Supercar" of the mid-70s.

It used to be a car with 100K miles was clapped out ... the engine needed a complete rebuild, bore and hone and new pistons, new valve gear ... everything was just beat and leaking. Now 250,000 for an engine with much higher specific output is normal. How is this a bad thing?

As @base2 mentioned ... . four times as long between oil changes (which are still pretty easy to do oneself) .... how is that a bad thing?

In a consumerist society it seems, the only free commodity is problems .... and people just love to collect them, valid or not.

I am sorry to inform everyone that electronic shifting will not kill cycling, any more than any other development. As long as people want to ride, bikes will be sold.

Further ... I am not a Constitutional scholar, but i don't recall any "right" to have exactly the cycling experience you desire. If at any time you find it impossible to ride the way you like ... stop. Nobody "owes' you the type of cycling experience you desire.

I am sure a lot of people will be angry when leaded gasoline is completely unavailable .... or when they can no longer buy parts for the 1929 model A, or whatever. In those cases, if there is demand ... people will Make those parts as specialty items, or mix their own fuels, or whatever. If you want to own and ride an Antique, that is a luxury, and you can expect to pay luxury prices. So ... get a machine shop set up in your garage and start cranking out replica driver trains of whatever era you think is "The Best." or, learn electronics and build your own electronic shifters. With 3D printing tech and such, there is nothing people cannot make.

In fact ... . you might not know this ... original neither cars nor bikes existed. People Made them. I am a member on a Facebook page of people who still make cars at home---Make ... Cars ... at Home. You can still beat a panel or machine an ingot or whatever ..... so if you Really care, learn to make bike parts. If people can make Cars from scratch, I am pretty sure you can learn t weld some tubing and program a CNC machine.

If that doesn't suit you ... well, whine away, if that seems like better use of your time.

Me ... i recall when it was simple to change a starter or an alternator or plugs, points and condenser, belts, all that. I had to adapt step by step until I accept that computer controlled ignition and fuel injection is just Better than carbs, and points, in terms of both more power and less pollution, both of which I favor. In exchange for faster, cleaner, better-handling cars which are much safer and weigh much less, I had to give up the ability ... and the need ... to work on those cars. I survived.

Darwinism, right? if electronic shifting is the death of some folks .... the gene pool gets filtered, right? Personally I intend to ride Something until I no longer can ... or no longer want to. If you are there now, because of electronic shifting or whatever ... Sayonara.

Thank you all very much for your rants about the evils of progress.

big john

You could say your bike is fine without crapping all over what other people like. You do this often. What you do is good and everyone else is just wrong.

mpetry912 

you mean like Tesla ? I doubt that they would "fold". However the advent of a new battery technology such as solid state batteries that offered 2X the range would devalue every Tesla by 50% overnite.

Also I am very sure Tesla has a "remote kill" capability. They don't advertise it, but they have it. It's a feature not a bug.

/markp

Broctoon

Exactly right. Do some Luddites in this forum seriously believe breaker point ignition is superior to modern systems? Heck, we don’t even need a distributor now, on most engines. These modern designs last much longer than old tech, and they also perform better. Same goes for program fuel injection as opposed to ancient technology carburetors.

I can understand the anxiety that comes from having a bike or car that needs regular firmware updates. For most machines, this is not the case. Van Moot is a sad tale we should pay attention to. But expanding this to “I don’t want breakerless ignition on my car; I want something I can always fix myself” is ridiculous.

rsbob 

I bet if a buyer doesn’t step-up an aftermarket/retrofitter will emerge. Software development is a non-issue as almost all proprietary software can be hacked and recoded. I bet a dollar that the VMs will be supported one way or another and most likely improved.

3alarmer 

...yes. Adjusting the valves on an old VW, while lying under the car, was Hitler's revenge, as far as I'm concerned. But Van Moof did make a very nice product for urban transportation, when it works. The problems arise in the application of new techno fixes without enough foresight in cost versus reward. I realize that technology proceeds in fits and starts, but somewhere along the line, product life cycle needs to be a consideration.

I think they had good intentions, a a company. Maybe someone will buy them whole, out of bankruptcy, and continue that work. Or maybe the intellectual property and the machinery to realize it will be sold piecemeal, and end up in Asia somewhere. No one knows right now. They got some bad breaks with the Covid pandemic, and it did them in. Maybe they were always headed in that direction. Meanwhile, the ones that stop rolling are mostly sitting around as poorly designed doorstops, depending on what's available in the repair pipeline. Which is a shame.

But this is my own view. And as already stated, I feel much more secure in life when I can fix my own stuff. It's just simpler than finding someone else to do it, in most cases.

3alarmer 

...meanwhile, this is a great opportunity to buy one cheap, as a project.

3alarmer 

"Technology is a useful servant but a dangerous master."

― Christian Lous Lange

Darth Lefty 

Speaking of technology, 20 or so years ago we got YouTube. And since ford makes about 2000 F-150’s a day, there’s going to be many people who already fixed your problem and posted a video

The idea of component “standards“ is kind of special to bicycles when you think about it. Ford doesn’t make cars that accept Chevy engines.

CAT7RDR

If I recall correctly, GM and Ford developed and manufactured the same 10 speed transmission.

rsbob 

Absolutely correct about YouTube. I can’t count how many times “YouTube University” has bailed me out on all things automotive, cycling and around the house. Fantastic asset and a huge time such if not careful.

Broctoon

Air cooled VWs were my family’s primary vehicles when I was growing up. Dad used to say their “heater” (he used the term loosely) was Hitler’s last stab at us.

Atlas Shrugged

If people want hoard and collect vintage and other peoples cast offs enjoy and have fun; but justifying it as a protection against an upcoming technological apocalypse is silly. Ironically a vast majority of those luddites will not even be with us 30 years from now and for sure not riding anymore. I am extremely confident that my Dura Ace Di2 bike will be running and serving my use as long as I want it to be.

Pointing out Van Moof as a case against modern equipment is radically unfair as it was a isolated case. The C&V community is littered with technological failures, from Teledyne Titans to Delta brakes. How many tens of thousands Campagnolo headsets have been discarded because of brinelling? It is unheard of in modern head set systems. Enjoy prattling around your basements adjusting bearings and re-cabling your shifters, searching Craigslist for more estate sale bargains and as I know it is emotionally satisfying.

3alarmer 

...but not nearly as much as being berated on a bike forum, by a guy who insists that the technological advances in modern mountain bikes have something to do with poor ol' Van Moof's demise. I can't get that anywhere else but here.

3alarmer 

​​​​​​​

wolfchild

I wasn't dissing or crapping on what other people like. I was just responding to one particular poster who seems to believe that it's impossible to enjoy mountain biking unless you are riding a $ 10 000 full suspension rig with 7 inches of travel....and BTW I used to own a 2007 Rocky Mountain Switch way back many years ago but after riding it on and off for about 2 years I sold it because I realized that this type of bike and the type of riding that the bike was designed for isn't really for me.

big john

OK, thanks for the explanation.

big john

Retired GM dealership technician here. We (GM) didn't have breaker points on anything after 1974. No carburetors on anything after 1986, except for a couple years of Caprice. No adjustable timing after 1995 and no distributors after 2000, iirc.

I always embraced the new stuff, it was the only way to survive and get what I wanted from the dealer. I was the first at my store to be electric car certified. I was also diesel trained and certified. And had an emission test license since 1983. When something totally different came out I couldn't avoid it, no sense hating it. Gotta learn as much as I can about it.

Atlas Shrugged

From post #3 on this thread, I can understand why you didn’t get the reference as it was buried in the Luddite manifesto as written by LV2TNDM.

“So when I look at my 1992 custom painted hard tail, I love knowing I can pedal it today as I did 31 years ago. I NEVER have to fear the dreaded "Firmware Not Supported" that today's bikes will display soon.”

3alarmer 

...thank you. I guess the berating will continue until morale improves. Hush my mouth, and call me schadenfreude.

RubeRad

This NPR story was the first I ever heard of VanMoof

https://www.kpbs.org/news/news/inter...iders-stranded

unterhausen

I'm not really a luddite, but I try not to buy everyday objects that require a cloud connection to work. The history of things like that is quite poor. My daughter had a fitness watch that worked fine until the company was bought out and the new owners shut down the online part. Now it's electronic waste. I seem to recall that the same thing has happened with 1st gen SRAM electronic derailleurs.

For some people, being able to control an ebike with their phone was a selling point. To me, it just seemed like a good way to turn your ebike into electronic waste.

SkinGriz

The flip side of elegant design could be trying to lock you into their ecosystem.

I just finished this. https://www.amazon.com/Good-Enough-J.../dp/059353896X

Great book. The subject of ecosystems reminds me of the actual perks of tech startups purpose is to have employees never leave work. A company town.

”Did you exchange
a walk on part in the war
for a lead role in a cage?”

3alarmer 

...you left out the best part of that NPR story. This happens in all those end of the world stories. When push comes to shove, we turn on each other.