Strava - good or bad for cycling?
01-07-13, 09:16 AM
#51
The Weird Beard
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Garmin profits >>> Strava or any other sports software platform out there right now
I think TrainerRoad is where someone came up with a very simple, but elegant software solution, and is now raking in very good profits for something that a good programmer could probably write in under 3 weeks. Still, I don't begrudge them the profits - it's good stuff. I do think, however, they'll have some competition very soon (already with Peripedal) so they'll have to keep raising their game to stay in the hunt after a year or two.
I think TrainerRoad is where someone came up with a very simple, but elegant software solution, and is now raking in very good profits for something that a good programmer could probably write in under 3 weeks. Still, I don't begrudge them the profits - it's good stuff. I do think, however, they'll have some competition very soon (already with Peripedal) so they'll have to keep raising their game to stay in the hunt after a year or two.
I think we agree that the hardware is becoming more open source and that the platform is where it is at. TrainerRoad looks good for indoor trainers, but am I missing something here with Garmin? Why try to sell soon to be antiquated hardware when developing the software for the millions of people who have mobile devices would be vastly more profitable. Sure, you charge less for it, but the sheer volume of subscribers (I surmise) would quickly overtake all of the Android and iOS apps out there based on name alone.
I know if Garmin came out with a well-developed app for Android, I'd drop whatever I was using to use Garmin. And this wouldn't even preclude Garmin from trying to sell their already familiar hardware.
Last edited by RT; 01-07-13 at 09:22 AM.
01-07-13, 09:44 AM
#52
Senior Member
Conversely, there are still bucks to be made in hardware. Given how cheap GPS chips and displays are these days, I'll bet the margins on a Garmin 500 or 800 are very healthy. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would buy a top-end Garmin these days if you already have a smartphone.
01-07-13, 09:53 AM
#53
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I'm not sure why it would be more profitable. Because of Google's willingness to publish APIs, mapping information is commoditized. Given the pervasivness of the data, there's no way to easily monetize a software-based solution like Strava without charging for it or integrating ads. Also, Google could kill all Strava-type platforms today by introducing a "Strava layer" into Google Maps and integrated social features in Google Plus. This would probably take about half an hour worth of coding for Google's engineers. Or they could simply buy Strava for the price of what they find under the couch cushions in an average Google office and integrate that.
Conversely, there are still bucks to be made in hardware. Given how cheap GPS chips and displays are these days, I'll bet the margins on a Garmin 500 or 800 are very healthy. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would buy a top-end Garmin these days if you already have a smartphone.
Conversely, there are still bucks to be made in hardware. Given how cheap GPS chips and displays are these days, I'll bet the margins on a Garmin 500 or 800 are very healthy. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would buy a top-end Garmin these days if you already have a smartphone.
01-07-13, 10:11 AM
#54
total Newbie
I'm not sure why it would be more profitable. Because of Google's willingness to publish APIs, mapping information is commoditized. Given the pervasivness of the data, there's no way to easily monetize a software-based solution like Strava without charging for it or integrating ads. Also, Google could kill all Strava-type platforms today by introducing a "Strava layer" into Google Maps and integrated social features in Google Plus. This would probably take about half an hour worth of coding for Google's engineers. Or they could simply buy Strava for the price of what they find under the couch cushions in an average Google office and integrate that.
Conversely, there are still bucks to be made in hardware. Given how cheap GPS chips and displays are these days, I'll bet the margins on a Garmin 500 or 800 are very healthy. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would buy a top-end Garmin these days if you already have a smartphone.
Conversely, there are still bucks to be made in hardware. Given how cheap GPS chips and displays are these days, I'll bet the margins on a Garmin 500 or 800 are very healthy. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would buy a top-end Garmin these days if you already have a smartphone.
01-07-13, 10:48 AM
#56
Descends like a rock
Why try to sell soon to be antiquated hardware when developing the software for the millions of people who have mobile devices would be vastly more profitable. Sure, you charge less for it, but the sheer volume of subscribers (I surmise) would quickly overtake all of the Android and iOS apps out there based on name alone.
01-07-13, 10:54 AM
#57
Descends like a rock
And yes, I think Strava is a good thing. I like being able to get a general idea as to how I compare to other riders on certain segments. I like seeing how I compare to myself on commutes. Its fun to ride an event and then go back and see how others did on a certain hill or stretch of nasty headwind. Its entertaining and motivating.
You just cant get to serious about the data from others - and you have to be able to just ignore the other people who take it way to seriously and not let them ruin it.
You just cant get to serious about the data from others - and you have to be able to just ignore the other people who take it way to seriously and not let them ruin it.
01-07-13, 10:57 AM
#58
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...and just wait until Garmin finally realizes that hardware is not where its at, it's the software platform and the aggregation/presentation of data. Soon, one company will have it all. I believe Strava's days are numbered, as in they will be absorbed by another company. I really don't know what Garmin is waiting for.
01-07-13, 11:33 AM
#59
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) with more than 60% left. Audio readouts at mile markers are all I need. It is the post-ride data that interests me.
01-07-13, 11:53 AM
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01-07-13, 12:11 PM
#62
Reasonably Slow...
I've been a Strava fan for a while, but more as a great way to log and mine data. Today's ride was an excellent case in point. I did a 6mile climb that I last did in late November early in my base period. A fellow BF member has divided this climb into 6 segments. Neither climb was blazingly fast as I was trying to ride within myself each time. From looking at segment times, HR and my power meter data, I could see that my base work was paying off as each segment time was a bit faster, at a lower HR and with higher power (i.e. better efficiency). Also looking across segments I could see that I was maintaining my power much more steadily over the climb compared to the last ride in November. Yes, that info could be obtained in other ways, but having the segments auto created for me makes it so much easier.
01-07-13, 12:16 PM
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Strava is good, nice way to keep track of your progress. Segments have been pretty useful for me to make sure I'm still improving. Also a good way to find new places to climb.
My phone would be on it's last legs with my long rides. Usually the phone has to be turned off, because roaming alone sucks the battery dry (much less running the GPS).
My phone would be on it's last legs with my long rides. Usually the phone has to be turned off, because roaming alone sucks the battery dry (much less running the GPS).
01-07-13, 12:33 PM
#64
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It is what you make it. It's not serious business for me, but it can be fun/useful.
01-07-13, 01:04 PM
#65
Descends like a rock
I also use the Garmin to keep me on track on long rides when I've pre-planned the route ahead. That little beep and arrow have saved me from wrong turns a time or two.
I can see using a phone for logging purposes, but if you want it for navigation and live stats, speedometer, odometer and such, a phone will only do for shorter rides. That's where Garmin hardware as an accessory to your phone fits in. It has longer battery life, can display a lot of info live for the duration of the ride, and is a smaller, neater, waterproof package to mount on the handlebars than a phone.
01-07-13, 01:11 PM
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Half an hour? Wow. I'm pretty sure it took the strava guys quite a bit longer than that. And while I'm sure google has some smart people I don't think they could replicate what strava has done in 30 man minutes.
Sean
Sean
I'm not sure why it would be more profitable. Because of Google's willingness to publish APIs, mapping information is commoditized. Given the pervasivness of the data, there's no way to easily monetize a software-based solution like Strava without charging for it or integrating ads. Also, Google could kill all Strava-type platforms today by introducing a "Strava layer" into Google Maps and integrated social features in Google Plus. This would probably take about half an hour worth of coding for Google's engineers. Or they could simply buy Strava for the price of what they find under the couch cushions in an average Google office and integrate that.
Conversely, there are still bucks to be made in hardware. Given how cheap GPS chips and displays are these days, I'll bet the margins on a Garmin 500 or 800 are very healthy. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would buy a top-end Garmin these days if you already have a smartphone.
Conversely, there are still bucks to be made in hardware. Given how cheap GPS chips and displays are these days, I'll bet the margins on a Garmin 500 or 800 are very healthy. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would buy a top-end Garmin these days if you already have a smartphone.
01-07-13, 01:48 PM
#67
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Clearly Hiro, is somebody that knows just enough to think he knows enough. There is A LOT of data coming off of a garmin unit or whatever you are using for strava.. There is a reason, that Strava has a career opportunity website. if he could do it in 30 minutes, they would have hired him a long time ago.
01-07-13, 05:06 PM
#68
Senior Member
+1,
Clearly Hiro, is somebody that knows just enough to think he knows enough. There is A LOT of data coming off of a garmin unit or whatever you are using for strava.. There is a reason, that Strava has a career opportunity website. if he could do it in 30 minutes, they would have hired him a long time ago.
Clearly Hiro, is somebody that knows just enough to think he knows enough. There is A LOT of data coming off of a garmin unit or whatever you are using for strava.. There is a reason, that Strava has a career opportunity website. if he could do it in 30 minutes, they would have hired him a long time ago.
01-07-13, 05:21 PM
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I enjoy Strava a lot. It's nice to track my weekly and monthly time and distance.
I also like the challenges. I just finished the Rapha Festive 500, it gave me a fun reason to ride during the Christmas holiday.
It kind of a novelty to see how I do on the segments post ride, but that is not the biggest attraction for me. Being in Japan, seeing the different routes around me is nice and has helped me explore new (to me) riding routes.
Because of finding these new routes, it has led to many of my rides getting longer than before. :-)
-Mitch
I also like the challenges. I just finished the Rapha Festive 500, it gave me a fun reason to ride during the Christmas holiday.
It kind of a novelty to see how I do on the segments post ride, but that is not the biggest attraction for me. Being in Japan, seeing the different routes around me is nice and has helped me explore new (to me) riding routes.
Because of finding these new routes, it has led to many of my rides getting longer than before. :-)
-Mitch
01-07-13, 05:38 PM
#70
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Excellent commentary from everyone. I'm glad that most people agree Strava is a fun tool and not detrimental to the sport.
Just to comment on a few things - about dedicated hardware versus using a phone - to me having the dedicated device wins hands down. Who wants to have some large smartphone hanging off their handlebars like a sail? The Garmin Edge is a small, sleek device that mounts and unmounts easily and has battery life that outlasts any smartphones. Also, if you want to read your heart rate or power data on a smart phone, I believe you need a special dongle or something. I also heard the GPS receiver on a device like a Garmin Edge is more accurate than the one on your phone, but I don't know this for sure.
As far as whether the Strava software is sophisticated, some of it actually is. For example I was reading on their blog about their segment matching algorithm. I was intrigued because on some of my segments which are large loops, it was falsely matching other people's rides which were different but which started and ended in the same place and had some common sections. It is actually a fairly difficult problem - matching a segment to someone's ride. There are several reasons for this. For one, GPS has an error factor so you can't exactly align one point on another. Also, GPS bike computers sample every few seconds so the points sampled on one device may not match the points that were sampled on the original segment. So some interpolation would need to be done to connect the points linearly and to do some comparisons there. Finally there is the issue of performance. They want it to work fairly fast so they don't want to compare every point on every route to every point along the segment. I believe their algorithm compares the start and end points and some percentage (I forget what it is) of the points in between. For segments that start and end in the same place the comparison is less accurate.
This is a fascinating post: https://strava.zendesk.com/entries/2...atching-issues
Just to comment on a few things - about dedicated hardware versus using a phone - to me having the dedicated device wins hands down. Who wants to have some large smartphone hanging off their handlebars like a sail? The Garmin Edge is a small, sleek device that mounts and unmounts easily and has battery life that outlasts any smartphones. Also, if you want to read your heart rate or power data on a smart phone, I believe you need a special dongle or something. I also heard the GPS receiver on a device like a Garmin Edge is more accurate than the one on your phone, but I don't know this for sure.
As far as whether the Strava software is sophisticated, some of it actually is. For example I was reading on their blog about their segment matching algorithm. I was intrigued because on some of my segments which are large loops, it was falsely matching other people's rides which were different but which started and ended in the same place and had some common sections. It is actually a fairly difficult problem - matching a segment to someone's ride. There are several reasons for this. For one, GPS has an error factor so you can't exactly align one point on another. Also, GPS bike computers sample every few seconds so the points sampled on one device may not match the points that were sampled on the original segment. So some interpolation would need to be done to connect the points linearly and to do some comparisons there. Finally there is the issue of performance. They want it to work fairly fast so they don't want to compare every point on every route to every point along the segment. I believe their algorithm compares the start and end points and some percentage (I forget what it is) of the points in between. For segments that start and end in the same place the comparison is less accurate.
This is a fascinating post: https://strava.zendesk.com/entries/2...atching-issues
01-07-13, 07:05 PM
#71
Senior Member
I use runkeeper. I tried strava, but KOM just does not motivate me, in fact I think it takes the joy out of cycling.
01-07-13, 07:58 PM
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I love Strava.
It's very simple to use.
I mostly use the Strava website, I don't run it on my iPhone (Unless my Garmin battery dies).
It allows uploading of Garmin data.
The KoMs are fun (yes I race, it's interesting to look at segment data from races), yet wind is a major factor in getting a KoM making them nothing more than a novelty.
The main draw for me though is the social aspect, it motivates me to ride knowing that all of my friends see when I don't.
It's very simple to use.
I mostly use the Strava website, I don't run it on my iPhone (Unless my Garmin battery dies).
It allows uploading of Garmin data.
The KoMs are fun (yes I race, it's interesting to look at segment data from races), yet wind is a major factor in getting a KoM making them nothing more than a novelty.
The main draw for me though is the social aspect, it motivates me to ride knowing that all of my friends see when I don't.
01-07-13, 08:30 PM
#73
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Excellent commentary from everyone. I'm glad that most people agree Strava is a fun tool and not detrimental to the sport.
Just to comment on a few things - about dedicated hardware versus using a phone - to me having the dedicated device wins hands down. Who wants to have some large smartphone hanging off their handlebars like a sail? The Garmin Edge is a small, sleek device that mounts and unmounts easily and has battery life that outlasts any smartphones. Also, if you want to read your heart rate or power data on a smart phone, I believe you need a special dongle or something. I also heard the GPS receiver on a device like a Garmin Edge is more accurate than the one on your phone, but I don't know this for sure.
As far as whether the Strava software is sophisticated, some of it actually is. For example I was reading on their blog about their segment matching algorithm. I was intrigued because on some of my segments which are large loops, it was falsely matching other people's rides which were different but which started and ended in the same place and had some common sections. It is actually a fairly difficult problem - matching a segment to someone's ride. There are several reasons for this. For one, GPS has an error factor so you can't exactly align one point on another. Also, GPS bike computers sample every few seconds so the points sampled on one device may not match the points that were sampled on the original segment. So some interpolation would need to be done to connect the points linearly and to do some comparisons there. Finally there is the issue of performance. They want it to work fairly fast so they don't want to compare every point on every route to every point along the segment. I believe their algorithm compares the start and end points and some percentage (I forget what it is) of the points in between. For segments that start and end in the same place the comparison is less accurate.
This is a fascinating post: https://strava.zendesk.com/entries/2...atching-issues
Just to comment on a few things - about dedicated hardware versus using a phone - to me having the dedicated device wins hands down. Who wants to have some large smartphone hanging off their handlebars like a sail? The Garmin Edge is a small, sleek device that mounts and unmounts easily and has battery life that outlasts any smartphones. Also, if you want to read your heart rate or power data on a smart phone, I believe you need a special dongle or something. I also heard the GPS receiver on a device like a Garmin Edge is more accurate than the one on your phone, but I don't know this for sure.
As far as whether the Strava software is sophisticated, some of it actually is. For example I was reading on their blog about their segment matching algorithm. I was intrigued because on some of my segments which are large loops, it was falsely matching other people's rides which were different but which started and ended in the same place and had some common sections. It is actually a fairly difficult problem - matching a segment to someone's ride. There are several reasons for this. For one, GPS has an error factor so you can't exactly align one point on another. Also, GPS bike computers sample every few seconds so the points sampled on one device may not match the points that were sampled on the original segment. So some interpolation would need to be done to connect the points linearly and to do some comparisons there. Finally there is the issue of performance. They want it to work fairly fast so they don't want to compare every point on every route to every point along the segment. I believe their algorithm compares the start and end points and some percentage (I forget what it is) of the points in between. For segments that start and end in the same place the comparison is less accurate.
This is a fascinating post: https://strava.zendesk.com/entries/2...atching-issues
Some folks like the hardware. I used mine for a while and decided that that teeny little screen did me no good as it scrolled through three screens worth of information. While I'm riding, more than one screen and I may as well just stay home and post in this forum. If you're talking about out on the ride, then Garmin has a loyal user base. If you're talking about post-ride data, Garmin is at the low end of that curve.
Strava can be useful, but I have actually stopped riding with people because all they care about are segments and times. Riding with those types is no fun at all.
01-07-13, 08:42 PM
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The edge 500 is the way to go, I carry my iPhone incase I get lost. While I do have an iPhone mount for the bars I only use it on the trainer.
01-07-13, 09:19 PM
#75
Senior Member
And no, I don't. I don't use Strava.
But I bet there are people who are on Strava that do drive instead of riding and post their info.