shovelhd

I swiped 'em at Nats. Sorry about that.

shovelhd

I like the new format. Switching is slow while the cache catches up. I can deal with it.

gsteinb

I mainly like because it was my idea. It would suck if I hated I it.

Survey:

who'd we lose?

chasm54

Too soon to say. But it looks as if most of the usual suspects have made the transition. Some of them probably haven't noticed they're in a different part of the galaxy.

chasm54

^^This.

AZT, all these trackies will be better bike handlers than me. You probably are yourself. But when I read you saying you want to lean your body more than the bike, my reaction was the same as Hermes. The only time I do that is when I'm trying to keep the bike near the vertical because I'm worried about a loose or slippery surface. Mostly I am either in the same plane as the bike for fast curves, or I'm countersteering to some extent in the way Hermes describes. If you're leaning your body at a greater angle than the bike in fast turns that's not a recipe for adhesion, imo.

Having said that I'm interested in your problem, because my TCR is a bit light at the front and the new bike I've been measured up for should address that by keeping me in the same riding position while moving my weight forward slightly. Moving the saddle forward a touch may be the answer, but in view of how quickly your injury followed the new fit, I'd be inclined to stick with it for a while and see if it is a question of getting comfortable with the revised position.

AzTallRider

Leaning your body more than the bike maintains a larger contact patch for the tires. It's something Ex has had me work on, and it's similar to what motorcycle racers do. It also lowers your CG a bit. And for me, I believe it also shifts my weight forward. But that technique is still in the "I have to think about it" mode, and I clearly haven't been doing it as I try to polish off the handling rust. There is a great photo of Ex cornering in one of the 33 threads, in fact I think it might be in my racings skills thread. Clearly you need to lean the bike enough to work the centripetal force and get around the turn, and putting my weight on the outside pedal and inside bar is 'motor memory' at this point, but the more upright the bike remains, the better your traction should be. That's my understanding of the physics involved, anyway.

Edit: Here is the photo.

shovelhd

Looks like the Driveway.



This is a shot of me during the M35+ race at Chris Thater NCC, about an hour before I won the M45+. Turn 1 I believe, which is an off-camber left-hander, rough on the outside line, and leads into the hill. At first glance it looks like any old racer riding through any old corner, but look closely. My outside leg is taking most of the force, although I am pedaling through this corner. My upper body weight is shifted very slightly to my right (on the left) shoulder, but my inside leg is splayed out a bit. My bars are not straight. If you compare where my rear wheel is going versus where my front wheel is going, I am countersteering by turning slightly right. This allows me to carry the maximum speed through the corner. Remember that this corner is off-camber. This is why hard and fast rules don't really apply because every corner is different and different rules apply.

I corner hard. Being small, light, and nimble (for an old fart), it gives me an advantage over the bigger guys. However, I cannot remember ever having a front wheel slide out from underneath me unless there was debris on the surface, an obstacle in the course, or I was pushing it too hard in the rain. Like others have mentioned, I also adjust my cornering style in the rain to stand the bike up more. When others are slowing excessively, I will carry more speed into the corner with minimal use of the brakes. Balance, momentum.

chasm54

Thanks, I went back and looked at Ex's pic in the other thread.

This is turning interesting. (See what I did there?). Looking at Ex's picture I suspect there's not as much between us as I might have thought, because his "lean more than the bike" looks pretty subtle and more a matter of weight transfer - knee, head looking beyond the corner, and so on. It looks to me that his body is pretty much in the same plane as the bike, but his weight is shifted to the right of the saddle and bars. So both he and bike are at about 45/50 degrees, but his weight is an inch or two to the inside, if you see what I mean. He's leading with his right shoulder, is what it looks like.

When he next drops by he can tell me if I'm utterly mistaken. But what I'm looking at there isn't quite what I visualised when you wrote about leaning more than the bike, which was your body was leaning in at a distinctly different angle to the bike.

Now I'm intrigued. When it's no longer icy outside I'm going to have to go out and consciously register what I'm doing on those fast curves, and whether it's really different, or mainly a matter of how we describe it. Fascinating.

EDIT. Typically I would corner more like shovel describes above, with a touch of countersteer, but as he says, corners differ.

Racer Ex 

There's also a subtle parrallelgramming of my arms/chest/bar to move some upper body weight to the inside as well.

Obviously with giant contact patches and a motor vs. pedaling you can do much more on a moto GP bike, but all the physics are the same. Moving your weight to the inside makes any traction loss more survivable because you don't "run off" the tire as soon.

Shovel is correct in that this picture is from The Driveway, which was a tight motor racing track suited to go karts. The narrowness and tight radius corners meant you were at traction limits in several of the corners. I could open big gaps on almost everybody in those corners, which was a big part of my riding off to the state crit title one year.

chasm54

Gotcha. I'm reassured that I haven't been completely off-beam all these years. But as ever, posting in this forum is an education.

AzTallRider

I understand and use counter steering, Shovel... I'm talking about the nuances of balance, positioning and bike fit; the things that make the difference between just being decent, and having cornering be a competitive advantage, as it clearly is for you, Ex, and others here. I was getting there, but an off-season takes more away when there aren't as many years reinforcing technique. Then there were the fit changes, and then the crash. So I'm having to re-instill the technique I was using at the end of last year. I'll get it back, and work out any bike issues, but as usual, I want to do that as quickly as possible. I dealt with understeering as I got started racing, since the Gunnar was a bear to get around a corner. The Madone 5.2 was better, but not great. I feel I had the last frame dialed in well - cornering was natural. Because of so many thing piled into the mix, right now it just isn't clear whether my issue is fit related, or purely my cornering mechanics.

I was due for a fitting follow-up anyway, so I scheduled that for Thursday, and let Aaron know I wanted to talk about the lightness in the front end. The more I think about this past weekend, the more I do feel there is a fit issue at play. I was having to push the bike around (force the counter steering) much more than I was doing previously. So we'll see if I can move the saddle forward a bit without messing up the mechanics.

One other factor is that, with a trackie sprinter dominating our results, average speeds have picked way up. More attacks, and the sprinter chases them down relentlessly. So we are cornering at higher speeds than was typical in the past. And pack cornering is of course different than when you are OTF (or OTB, but we won't go there).

happybday29475

LAJ is not slow! Don't let his Mr. Nice Guy facade fool you!

shovelhd

Which was all I was trying to do, as best as I could using a 2d picture.

I'd definitely get the fit right first. If there are any lingering effects from the injury, they may affect the fit initially, but you will be able to sense the changes as you heal. Then I would practice, practice, practice. Start by overcompensating a little then dialing it back until you know the extremes.

Good luck to you.

LAJ

Howdy rapwithtom. Good to see you! If I hadn't seen you peek in here, I would have somehow let you know this seems to be where the cool kids congregate. You're no slouch on a bike yourself, sir.

AzTallRider

I'm with you Shovel, and I really appreciate all the input you've provided. I'm thinking I'll spend some time on our Tuesday night course checking things out. I know those turns well, and it's fast. If I can't sense what is going on there, then I'm hopeless.

shovelhd

BTW I have eight races on the new frame and I still don't really know what the extremes are yet. I've been testing them during the races, but the Bethel course doesn't have any tough corners. This weekend will be a better test. I clipped my inside pedal in turn three attacking there last year. I skipped a bit but did not high side. The guys in back of me stayed up as well.

AzTallRider

This wouldn't be a racing forum if we didn't pick on the newcomers at least a little... all in good humor of course.

LAJ

Absolutely.

Hermes

I think A'Jet is in a cabin in Western PA and he is going to be surprised to that the forum is moved.

sarals 

Cornering, anyone?

Jobiensis

So if I'm 42 and just started racing is this forum an appropriate place for me to post? Calling me a master is hilarious, I'm more of an old junior.

chasm54

It's perfectly appropriate. In here, you don't have to be old or fast, you just have to be interesting.

Hermes

Welcome Jobiensis. When you enter, you have to check your age at the door. Once you are in, the goal is to get faster.

revchuck 

I'm 61 and just started racing, and they haven't kicked me out...yet...

LAJ

Welcome Jobiensis. I'm not interesting, as I spend all my time warming up. But I'm certainly trying to get faster.