yonelwa

I recently bought a 1983 Chas Robert's handmade bike with all the original components and a near complete Nouvo Record groupie (aside from Shimano 600 levers and brakes, and Sakae BB). I've been battling over whether to keep the NR crankset and accept that this bike will be ridden in mostly flat-hilly terrain. The problem with my local climbs is that some sections are super steep (20%+), but not Tour de France long (maybe a couple of km all up and only a small section above 20%. If I did a big climbing ride (by my standards) I would be climbing about 1000m over 50 or 60km or 600m over 40km (lots of hills and only ever being maybe 300 - 450m above sea level), and I would do maybe 2 - 3 steep climbs. A hilly ride is around 40 - 60km with about 200m climbing and nothing steep. A long ride is around 100km and 900m climbing and nothing steep). However, I struggle with these steep climbs on my carbon bike with a 32/32 climbing gear, a 25/42 gear ratio would be impossible for me. The first few times I tried climbing these hills I had to stop multiple times to catch my breath. I love climbing, for me it's the best part about cycling, but I'm not by any means a good climber.

It seems a waste to be so limited on this bike. I guess I could try learning to climb with a 25/42 gear or use my other bike, but I really want this bike to be practical and ridden on any road (by me and not someone whose been crunching up big hills on big gears since the 70's ).

So I've been looking at new cranks. Getting period correct cranks is too much hassle for me, so I've opted for these cranks by Blue Lug (The crank specs are below).

The big question is would my NR FD and RD work with this triple with 48/36/26T?

The other option is a Velo Orange double with a 30T small ring. I would be open to searching for a period correct crankset with a small chainring (double or triple, just want it to be between 24 - 32T). I have looked on eBay, but it just fried by brain - I have no idea what to look for.

Thanks!

48/36/26T
Arm Length：165,170,172.5mm
PCD：Outer 110mm/inner 74mm
Chain：9 Speed suggested
BB：square tapered/JIS
Suggested shaft length：122.5mm
Material：Aluminum

nlerner

Options in the vintage world to set up a triple or a compact double are Stronglight 99, Stronglight 49D, and TA Pro vis 5. All come up for sale regularly on eBay and various bike lists, and new rings are still made. I don't know what the capacities of your current mechs are with respect to working with that triple (for which you'd need a new bottom bracket).

52telecaster

If you are looking at the velo orange with the 50.4 mm bcd, know that T.A. sells rings for it that go down to 26 teeth. I can usually get old road front derailleurs to work on them.

Schreck83 

Big question: FD, yes, but the RD won’t be able to wrap enough chain to handle the large difference between your new low and high gears.

steelbikeguy

I can't imagine a NR rear derailleur working over that gear range. I'm not even sure if the front NR derailleur would cover the 26T to 48T range of chainrings, but it might.

In my own case of wanting lower gears on a bike with the standard Campy Super Record stuff, with a 13-24 freewheel and 42-52 chainrings, I switched to compact gearing. I got a SunXCD clone of the T.A. Cyclotourist crank with 50-34 chainrings, and went with a SunTour Cyclone GT rear derailleur and a 13-26 freewheel. I kept the Campy SR front derailleur.
Yeah, it bothered me to lose the classic Campy bits, but they were never going to work with the desired gear range. The new parts are still shiny aluminum, so that helps compensate.
I should note that the bike has racing geometry, but wasn't sold specifically for racing. As such, I felt I could take these sorts of liberties with it.
Here's a shot of it with the lower gears...



Steve in Peoria

52telecaster

I've used old suntour fronts with 49-26 but you have to limit the small ring to the largest rear cog or two. You also need a suntour gt cage.

squarenoise 

I've read in a few posts that the vintage Campagnolo front derailleurs will shift tripe set ups no problem. For the rear, you could swap the cage with a Soma Campy Cage to accommodate the extra chain wrap. I did this on my 1980 Raleigh Competition and it works great.

79pmooney

Something I've been doing forever but with various SunTour FDs, not Campy is replacing the plastic bushing at the cage bottom with a stack of the smallest washers that fit over the bole between the plates. Then the chain can drag, even at tension over the now steel "bushing" and neither the chain nor the FG care. Looks like you do the same with 52telecaster's Campy SR FD.

davester

If you want to keep the Campy NR stuff you can do what I did:

1. Buy a Red Clover triplizer and hardware (https://www.redclovercomponents.com/..._42_Teeth.html) along with a new small chainring (I went with a 30T). You'll also need a wider bottom bracket (either Shimano or Phil Wood will work).

2. Buy the Soma long cage for the rear derailleur. It'll work with the chain wrap you have and I've used mine with up to 32T on the rear (YMMV).

Here's a photo of my bike with this setup:


My 1981 Ron Cooper

top506

This. Works like a charm:

Top

Garthr

I'd try the FD as it just may work. I've used Shimano road doubles with 26/36/46 before. As for the NR rear, to get more capacity you need a longer cage like the Soma mentioned above. https://www.somafabshop.com/shop/som...=764#attr=3684

That brings the wrap up to 38t and the largest cog to 32, though I bet a 34 would work too. I just bought one these yesterday for my NR and/or SR derailleurs. If it works as I'd like I'l get another.

ehcoplex 

Possibly the simplest/maybe cheapest thing to try (which I haven't yet, but plan to with my Holdsworth Pro, living in a very hilly/steep place, but wanting to be era-appropriate with Campy....)- a freewheel with a 32 or maybe 34t large cog and a drop-out extender. That won't give a short-cage any more chain wrap capacity, but should allow it to shift onto a bigger cog. With limited wrap capacity, a smaller large chainring is probably a good idea. My Holdsworth is set up with 42/46 up front and a 13-32 freewheel, so basically maxing out the range wrap-wise and losing top gears in favor of low (I've got a pretty high cadence, so I don't mind, and it's steep and hilly enough where I am that I also don't mind spinning out a little early on descents and resting for the inevitable climb that immediately follows!). It doesn't get down to a 1:1, and I do still have to avoid the steepest of routes early in the season, but after a few weeks of regular riding I'm OK with a 42/32 low. On particularly long climbs I do find myself thinking, gee I wish I had just one more lower gear!, but I still get to the top. I'm currently running this with a Cyclone GT RD, but I've got a NR I'm going to try with an extender when I reassemble the bike after painting it this winter. Yeah, I'm sure the Campy won't perform as well as the Cyclone, but, well, y'know.....

jonwvara 

Yes, that can work, but as you point out, you'll still have the limited chain wrap of a short-cage derailleur. The critical thing is to make sure that your chain is long enough to handle the big-big combination. That's a cross-chained gear you don't ordinarily use, but there's a very good chance that you will someday shift onto it by mistake. If and when that happens with a too-short chain, you're going to break something, and maybe hurt yourself, as I learned the hard way many years ago. (I know already know this, ehoplex, but I mention it here for the benefit of those who may not.)

52telecaster

This is how I always set mine up. Enough chain for any eventuality and avoid those where I have too much chain, which is logical anyway.

WGB 

If you wish to stay per correct Campagnolo, why not use a Rally Rd? I think they're suitable for 32 rear cogs (maybe 34?).

ehcoplex 

Because where is the fun in that?

masi61

That Blue Lug triple crankset looks very nice for the price.

steelbikeguy

My top priority is: everyone should do what they want....

...but...

yeah, I don't understand the desire to hack a derailleur that is unsuited to wide range freewheels prior to the modification, and is only modestly improved by the modification. The Rally is a great solution if you have the urge to stay full Campy. Using the best wide range derailleurs of the era, such as SunTour, Shimano, and probably some French stuff(?), is what works for me.

Steve in Peoria
(still have 3 vintage bikes with Campy NR/SR racing gearing)

jonwvara 

My feeling is that a Soma cage isn't really a "hack," in the sense that it's easily reversible (assuming that whoever does the modification saves the original cage). If switching derailleur cages is a hack, it seems to me that switching to an entirely different derailleur would also qualify as a hack. But either would work.

If it were my bike, I'd probably just install a long-cage Suntour RD, as others have suggested, and get the benefit of improved shifting at the cost of some (to me) inessential originality. A VGT Luxe, Cyclone GT, or Vx GT would work well.

But I am in full agreement about your top priority: All to their own taste.

steelbikeguy

I don't mean to imply that any damage is done to the original derailleur, or that it is a poorly implemented modification. The Soma cage looks to be nicely executed. My objection is that the NR geometry isn't exactly known for shifting well (although it does well enough on my 13-24 tooth freewheels). With the Soma mod, the jockey pulley is fairly far from the cogs, which is going to require noticeable overshift. Hey, we've all gotten used to some overshift when using friction shifting, so this isn't a huge problem.

Still... there are better solutions out there. SunTour derailleurs have the slant parallelogram to keep a fairly constant gap between the jockey pulley and cogs, and the Shimano design has the sprung upper pivot to achieve a similar result.

One argument for using the Soma cage modification is when you already have the derailleur that you will modify. You don't have to go out and find a decent SunTour or Shimano derailleur or worry about some unforeseen compatibility issue. I see a lot of SunTour Cyclone GT derailleurs on eb*y with (imho) crazy prices. If you have time to wait for a decent price to pop up, then you can do okay. If not, there is a lot to be said for just quickly ordering the Soma cage.
(but it still looks like a hack to me. )

Steve in Peoria

dddd

One thing to remember about achieving the greatest gearing range using a derailer such as the Nuovo record having little in the way of chain wrap:

You can get more gearing range by increasing the freewheel's range than by increasing the chainring's size range.

This is the case because any given tooth-count difference between chainrings or across a freewheel will be a larger percentage of the freewheel's tooth count than the chainring's tooth count.

The best that I have been able to achieve using standard Nuovo Record derailers (after having fine-tuned the chain length and axle position) was 49/42 chainrings and a 14-32 freewheel.

It's also possible to add even more range in front, but at the expense of the chain sagging when using the small chainring together with the smallest of the freewheel cogs, making a 52/36t crankset with perhaps as wide as a 14-30t freewheel a possibility.
Remember though that when the cage wraps more chain while on the small chainring, clearance between the top guide pulley and the largest cog typically decreases (the very real exceptions being non-offset pulley cages, or the also-real possibility of an offset top pulley swinging fully in front of the largest cog when on the small chainring).

But since you are limited to 41t as a smallest chainring, I would start by getting set up with a 14-30 or 14-32t freewheel, only then considering using a different, wider-ranging crankset.

I set my own bikes up with a relatively "rider-forward" position, which has among it's many advantages the ability to more-effortlessly/frequently transition to an off-saddle position where much higher gearing can still be used to get me up my local foothills "steeps". But this does then require maintaining a sufficient cardio fitness level to handle the greater required power output for any length of time. It has to work for me because not all of my bikes have low gearing, and luckily I can ride year-round where I live.

Yesterday I set up my re-branded Bridgestone Submariner with lower gearing, in part because I often ride it off road and also because it's quite heavy and uses flat pedals (it's my new errand bike).
The original crankset is cottered, 52-40t, with a chainring guard, a recessed drive-side cup, 73mm shell and wildly asymmetric spindle (for the bike's very odd 140mm rear axle spacing). So I chose to just leave all of that alone!
The freewheel however was a 5-speed Shimano 14-28t, and the rear hub had room for my standard 6sp Uniglide 13-34t freewheel (I put on a new 116t "Z" chain while I was at it).
The Shimano short-cage "Lark II" rear derailer just and I mean just handled both extremes of small-small and big-big (it's dual sprung pivots no doubt helping a lot here).

The longer stem, wider handlebar and padded tape were the other things that I've done so far since buying the bike for $14.99 just 8 days ago, each change made a huge improvement (the saddle with it's coarse-detented adjustable clamp is next on the list, waiting for the rain to stop so I can test a new one out, ...yeah and new tires!).
I can barely describe the amount of added overall effectiveness of the new setup, the ratio gaps remaining about the same (but high gear being about 8% taller and low gear being about 21% lower). Fantastic!

zandoval 

These are getting hard to find but are well worth the money...



My rides are short Up and Down rides. I use this crank with a 6 speed Shimano derailleur that has a 34T bail out cog. Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy...

jonwvara 

Well, I think we've done it again. The OP posited a simple question, and after twenty increasingly technical posts, he or she has been stunned into silence. Sometimes I think we just like to hear ourselves talk. (Including, I'm sorry to say, me.)

bulgie 

I like to add sprung top-pivots to '60s-'70s Campy racing derailers, to make them act more like the Simplex or Shimano of that era. Not sharing this as advice, that'd be terrible advice. It's impractical. Just wanted to show an example of the absurd lengths some anoraks are willing to go to.

For example, here's my NR that's been hot-rodded with a Rally sprung upper pivot, and a SR pulley cage:


Here it's reaching fairly easily to a 31t cog, the largest Regina ever made for the old 'Oro' freewheel. It also hits 32t no problem, didn't try it on 34 but I think it'd work. The short cage still limits the range in front, but I can also put a Rally cage on it. OK, then it's just a Rally mech with an NR outer parallelogram link, but with a little extra coolness factor. BTW both pivot bolts on this one are Ti, made by Jim Merz.

A little more wacky, here's a bronze and steel Record mech that's had the sprung upper pivot from a Sport (not Gran Sport) grafted on. I show it in big-big and small-small, where it works fine, with a 30t freewheel and a 28-38-49 triple, slightly lower than 1-to-1 low. Note how the whole parallelogram swings fore and aft on that upper pivot, which a normal Record or NR can't do.


Basically, it's a more-durable Simplex Prestige. Oh and check out that drillium Stronglight 93 triple while yer at it. Note it uses only '70s Stronglight parts, down to the bolts. So it could have been done BITD, though I don't know if anyone did. Goes down to 28t.

If that's not enough gear range, I can easily bolt on a long cage from an early '70s Crane GS. It bolts right on*, like it was made to fit!


I don't know the max range for this, but here it's easily shifting to a 34t cog, with 20t range in front (26-36-46), and capacity to spare. It's all period-correct for an early-'70s bike, all parts that existed back then and could very well have been assembled like this BITD. Dunno if anyone did.

* OK it doesn't quite bolt right on, it does require about 10 seconds of work with a dremel, to knock down the rotation-stop nub on the Crane cage, which otherwise gets in the way of the spring-cover cap on the Record. If you take off the minimum amount, then the nub stil functions 100% on the Crane, so this is fully reversible. Pic to show where to remove metal:

Adding the "Pawn" bolt from the Record as a cage-rotation stop is optional, only comes into play when removing the rear wheel and putting it back in, has zero function while riding. But it's also a one-minute job if you own an M5 x 0.8 tap, which anyone who would take on this crazy grafting project certainly already owns.

BTW adding the Crane cage to a Record is a good hack even if you aren't grafting on a sprung upper pivot. The cage is MUCH easier than the grafting mod, and reversible, no derailers are harmed.

Lastly, here's a Gran Sport, the '50s-'60s racing mech, also with the top knuckle of a Sport grafted on:



Haven't put this on a bike yet, but I expect it'll have almost but not quite as much range as the Record, and the Crane GS cage doesn't bolt right on like it does on the Record. Still, a nice "secret weapon" for an Eroica bike, for someone not as slim and masochistic as they were in their younger years.

Bob Freeman, who made himself some Rally-clone cages and then got Soma to make them, has put Rally-clone cages on Gran Sport mechs, ask him how. It's not a simple bolt-on, the thread is different, so you'll have to be comfortable with drilling and tapping on your brand new Soma cage.

Seriously though, don't do any of this. It's way more work than it's worth. Just get a derailer that was made to work with lower gears.

Oh about the front derailer: I've always just used a stock '70s Record. It works great with a 20t spread or even more, but I seldom want more than 20t, so I haven't tested the limits. I have a feeling (correct me if I'm wrong) that most people who say it's not for triples are just assuming, without ever trying one. Anyone here actually found the Record unsuitable for triples? If so, in what way?

zandoval 

Yep... We are a jolly old group aren't we...