New Australian study into night visibility misconceptions
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
New Australian study into night visibility misconceptions
#2
Senior Member
First sentence: "Conspicuity limitations make bicycling at night dangerous." Right. I like how its the fault of the cyclists for "not being conspicuos enough" rather than the fault of the driver for plowing into him.
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Posts: 7,048
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 509 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times
in
8 Posts
Additionally, occasional bicyclists judged themselves to be more visible than did frequent bicyclists.
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midwest
Posts: 369
Bikes: '10 Fuji Cross Comp, '12 Brompton S-Type, '14 All City Mr Pink
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Interesting that retroreflective material on ankles / knees makes so much difference to the actual recognition distance. Ankle bands are usually the part of my 'dark' gear that I'm least likely to bother to put on. I guess that should change.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: London
Posts: 2,420
Bikes: Baum Romano, Brompton S2, Homemade Bamboo!
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 474 Post(s)
Liked 204 Times
in
129 Posts
There was an earlier Australian study on this - something to do with the movement. A static reflector could be some boring road furniture, but something pumping up and down seems to trigger a better response.
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
12 Posts
IMO, nothing new, different, or in the least surprising in the abstract. More interesting would be a study on what compels many riders to be so obtuse about this.
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 9,847
Bikes: Kirk Custom JK Special, '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) 80?? SR Semi-Pro 600 Arabesque
Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2338 Post(s)
Liked 2,827 Times
in
1,543 Posts
I can tell you never have really objectively seen how difficult it is see a cyclist at night with dark clothes and no lights/reflectors. And in my experience many people who ride like that also tend to ride ride unpredicatably. So you take an invisible person who does a dumb move and a driver (or another cyclist) has reduced time to react.
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midwest
Posts: 369
Bikes: '10 Fuji Cross Comp, '12 Brompton S-Type, '14 All City Mr Pink
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Yeah, that's what surprised me - the original set of 'acquisition distances' (which as JonnyHK says, are from an earlier study). 20m for dark clothing and no reflectives. Even with a 20mph closure rate (15mph bike and 35mph car) that's only a couple of seconds. The ankle/knee reflectors triple that distance (40 to 120m) vs just a reflective vest.
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Lancaster, PA, USA
Posts: 1,851
Bikes: 2012 Trek Allant, 2016 Bianchi Volpe Disc
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This holds up with my personal experiences.
I saw a cyclist with ankle reflectors and the up-down motion made it immediately obvious that there was a cyclist way before I could actually see the rider or the bike.
I saw a cyclist with ankle reflectors and the up-down motion made it immediately obvious that there was a cyclist way before I could actually see the rider or the bike.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times
in
12 Posts
Of course most states require bikes ridden at night to have pedal and spoke reflectors, specifically because the motion makes them much more conspicuous.
#11
Mmm hm!
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 1,164
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Another article on this topic from the same authors
Wood, J. M., Tyrrell, R. A., Marszalek, R., Lacherez, P., Carberry, T., & Chu, B. S. (March 01, 2012). Using reflective clothing to enhance the conspicuity of bicyclists at night. Accident Analysis & Prevention, 45, 726-730.
This article shows that young drivers are able to recognize a cyclist before the elderly (who shouldn't be driving IMO past 60). See the attachment and
No pedal reflectors on my M520s, but I did the next best thing: I used Reflexite REF-DB Retroreflective Daybright Tape along the length of the crankarms, both sides, so that a solid line of reflective tape is seen while pedaling. I also put the tape throughout the span of both planet bike fenders + parts of the rear rack. It is very reflective! I've had several motorists complement how bright I am in the back (also probably due to the three hotshots).
Those studies are called Looked But Failed To See (LBFTS) errors in the literature. There has been a lot of research on this topic.
Arnaud Koustanaï, Emmanuelle Boloix, Pierre Van Elslande, Claude Bastien, Statistical analysis of “looked-but-failed-to-see” accidents: Highlighting the involvement of two distinct mechanisms, Accident Analysis & Prevention, Volume 40, Issue 2, March 2008, Pages 461-469, ISSN 0001-4575, 10.1016/j.aap.2007.08.001.
Cale B. White, Jeff K. Caird, The blind date: The effects of change blindness, passenger conversation and gender on looked-but-failed-to-see (LBFTS) errors, Accident Analysis & Prevention, Volume 42, Issue 6, November 2010, Pages 1822-1830, ISSN 0001-4575, 10.1016/j.aap.2010.05.003.
Mai-Britt Herslund, Niels O Jørgensen, Looked-but-failed-to-see-errors in traffic, Accident Analysis & Prevention, Volume 35, Issue 6, November 2003, Pages 885-891, ISSN 0001-4575, 10.1016/S0001-4575(02)00095-7.
Wood, J. M., Tyrrell, R. A., Marszalek, R., Lacherez, P., Carberry, T., & Chu, B. S. (March 01, 2012). Using reflective clothing to enhance the conspicuity of bicyclists at night. Accident Analysis & Prevention, 45, 726-730.
This article shows that young drivers are able to recognize a cyclist before the elderly (who shouldn't be driving IMO past 60). See the attachment and
Arnaud Koustanaï, Emmanuelle Boloix, Pierre Van Elslande, Claude Bastien, Statistical analysis of “looked-but-failed-to-see” accidents: Highlighting the involvement of two distinct mechanisms, Accident Analysis & Prevention, Volume 40, Issue 2, March 2008, Pages 461-469, ISSN 0001-4575, 10.1016/j.aap.2007.08.001.
Cale B. White, Jeff K. Caird, The blind date: The effects of change blindness, passenger conversation and gender on looked-but-failed-to-see (LBFTS) errors, Accident Analysis & Prevention, Volume 42, Issue 6, November 2010, Pages 1822-1830, ISSN 0001-4575, 10.1016/j.aap.2010.05.003.
Mai-Britt Herslund, Niels O Jørgensen, Looked-but-failed-to-see-errors in traffic, Accident Analysis & Prevention, Volume 35, Issue 6, November 2003, Pages 885-891, ISSN 0001-4575, 10.1016/S0001-4575(02)00095-7.
Last edited by agent pombero; 04-11-13 at 12:07 PM.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
2 Posts
Reflective tape if used well has one other huge advantage, it can be put on to provide reflection from all angles. Most reflectors and lights are only in front and behind.
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Naptown
Posts: 1,133
Bikes: NWT 24sp DD; Brompton M6R
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
1 Post
And it *is* the responsibility of cyclists to use appropriate lighting at night. The point of the article is to help bikers realize what works best to be seen. I think that is very useful information.
#14
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
And it *is* the responsibility of cyclists to use appropriate lighting at night.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 29,552
Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Marin Muirwoods 29er, Trek FX Alpha 7.0
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5224 Post(s)
Liked 3,585 Times
in
2,344 Posts
would like to see a study on drivers who buzz cyclists intentionally
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,278
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4260 Post(s)
Liked 1,363 Times
in
945 Posts
We don't know what the study means by "young" or "elderly" but it would seem that the peformance of 59 year-olds is very close to the performance of 60 year-olds.
If you don't want 60 year-olds driving, do you want them to be riding bicycles?
If you have a drivers license, are you planning on giving it up when you turn 60?
If you had suggested that everybody qualify due to some sort of test, you might have a reasonable idea. But disqualifying people by simple age doesn't make sense.
You also don't seem to realize that "young" drivers (20-24 year-olds) are involved in many more accidents (about 3.5 times as many) as 65-74 year-olds are.
https://www.census.gov/compendia/stat...es/12s1114.pdf
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-11-13 at 01:52 PM.
#17
Senior Member
Im not arguing that the information is not useful for those who do want to go above and beyond I am just saying that there seems to be more and more responsibility put on the cyclists for "gettin' outta the way of da cars" and not enough emphasis put on drivers who disregard the laws that are in place to keep us safe in the first place.
So, if cyclists are not very visible to cars why do cyclists have to change their behavior and not drivers?
#18
Senior Member
If you're doing 25 mph downhill in the dark on your bike, how much reaction time do you think you have, how much distance do you think you'd need to ID a pedestrian dressed all in black, walking along the side of the road? Think you'd have enough time to not plow into them...?
If you hit them, is it the fault of the walker wearing dark, or the cyclist running them down?
If you hit them, is it the fault of the walker wearing dark, or the cyclist running them down?
#19
Senior Member
I have enough lights, reflectors, bright clothing, etc., that cars often pass me extremely slow. You can tell there's "some WTF is that?" going on.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,278
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4260 Post(s)
Liked 1,363 Times
in
945 Posts
If its actually that hard to see a cyclists without a leg band then they make cars have mandatory brighter head lights or night time speed limits that are much slower than day time speed limits. Why is it always the cyclists fault? "I'm sorry officer but even thought the cyclists followed all the rules and had the legally required red reflector on the back of his bike, I just couldnt see him because he didnt have an ankle strap! What was that guy thinking?!?!?!"
Im not arguing that the information is not useful for those who do want to go above and beyond I am just saying that there seems to be more and more responsibility put on the cyclists for "gettin' outta the way of da cars" and not enough emphasis put on drivers who disregard the laws that are in place to keep us safe in the first place.
So, if cyclists are not very visible to cars why do cyclists have to change their behavior and not drivers?
Im not arguing that the information is not useful for those who do want to go above and beyond I am just saying that there seems to be more and more responsibility put on the cyclists for "gettin' outta the way of da cars" and not enough emphasis put on drivers who disregard the laws that are in place to keep us safe in the first place.
So, if cyclists are not very visible to cars why do cyclists have to change their behavior and not drivers?
Given how easy/cheap/effective it is to be more visible as a cyclist, it's not very smart to choose not be more visible.
The goal is to avoid collisions. Why would you, as a cyclist, rationally choose to rely on drivers changing their behavior?
#21
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Did they test rear pointed lights or only front?
from abstract: "the bicycle had a light mounted on the handlebars which was either static, flashing or off."
from abstract: "the bicycle had a light mounted on the handlebars which was either static, flashing or off."
#22
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
If you're doing 25 mph downhill in the dark on your bike, how much reaction time do you think you have, how much distance do you think you'd need to ID a pedestrian dressed all in black, walking along the side of the road? Think you'd have enough time to not plow into them...?
If you hit them, is it the fault of the walker wearing dark, or the cyclist running them down?
If you hit them, is it the fault of the walker wearing dark, or the cyclist running them down?
See things get a bit strange as soon as you throw a motorist into the equation... as apparently they can be in "accidents" where there is no fault assigned.
#23
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,978
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,536 Times
in
1,045 Posts
#24
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,978
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,536 Times
in
1,045 Posts
The poster who made the bizarre comment don't need no stinkin' stats to justify his bizarre (to be kind) opinions; unless he can find some, somewhere that somehow supports his wackadoodle opinions.
#25
Senior Member
Cars are specifically required to run lights at some time period stated in law around sunset or dusk. Motorcyclists in the USA have to run daytime running lights. Many cyclists are legally required to run lights when it's dark out.
Maybe lights should be mandatory on bikes, and while we're at it, require daytime use for conspicuity like motorcyclists and many cars.
If a cyclist is riding in the dark without lights where nighttime use of lights is required of cyclists and gets hit by a driver with their car, who is more at fault?