Milan San Remo
03-19-12, 08:39 PM
#51
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But Garrans did seem to walk a fine line very nicely. He did take one pull. Perhaps just enough to keep Cancellara from saying no chance either way (or trying to force on of the others to pull, which may have resulted in a catch) . And in hindsight perhaps just enough to keep them clear from the closing group.
Walking that fine line, while still riding rather hard at least makes him smarter than most of the posters where who are trying to get thigns right days later. (Me included). At least smarter in terms of pro racing.
Walking that fine line, while still riding rather hard at least makes him smarter than most of the posters where who are trying to get thigns right days later. (Me included). At least smarter in terms of pro racing.
Gerrans employed tactics that he thought were best to that end; and he won.
But my disagreement with the notion that he's somehow the "smartest," or he was
incredibly tactically astute for doing so. I don't agree. To me, that is no smarter than
a person drinking water when (s)he's thirsty--it's intuitive or automatic.
I dont know if you remember back when Bruyneel out sprinted Indurain for a stage
win in the '98 Tour, but he sat on Indurain's wheel--much like Gerrans did to Cancellara--
but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone saying that Bruyneel was the smartest rider
that day. Then there's the 2001 Paris-Roubaix: was Knaven the smartest rider
(smarter than Hincapie or Dierckxsens) that day because at crunch-time he was in a
six-man breakaway with three teammates and used that tactical advantage to help
him win that race? Maybe to some that seems sensible, but to me that's amazingly
ridiculous. If people want to have hissy-fit because (and I don't mean you, obviously)
I wont tow the company-line and agree that Gerrans was super-duper smart because
he won in part by sitting on Cancellara's wheel, have at it. It's only the interwebz; it
aint all that serious.
Last edited by Cat4Lifer; 03-19-12 at 09:05 PM.
03-20-12, 02:43 AM
#52
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Look, I don't begrudge Gerrans for his victory. These guys get paid to win, and
Gerrans employed tactics that he thought were best to that end; and he won.
But my disagreement with the notion that he's somehow the "smartest," or he was
incredibly tactically astute for doing so. I don't agree. To me, that is no smarter than
a person drinking water when (s)he's thirsty--it's intuitive or automatic.
I dont know if you remember back when Bruyneel out sprinted Indurain for a stage
win in the '98 Tour, but he sat on Indurain's wheel--much like Gerrans did to Cancellara--
but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone saying that Bruyneel was the smartest rider
that day. Then there's the 2001 Paris-Roubaix: was Knaven the smartest rider
(smarter than Hincapie or Dierckxsens) that day because at crunch-time he was in a
six-man breakaway with three teammates and used that tactical advantage to help
him win that race? Maybe to some that seems sensible, but to me that's amazingly
ridiculous. If people want to have hissy-fit because (and I don't mean you, obviously)
I wont tow the company-line and agree that Gerrans was super-duper smart because
he won in part by sitting on Cancellara's wheel, have at it. It's only the interwebz; it
aint all that serious.
Gerrans employed tactics that he thought were best to that end; and he won.
But my disagreement with the notion that he's somehow the "smartest," or he was
incredibly tactically astute for doing so. I don't agree. To me, that is no smarter than
a person drinking water when (s)he's thirsty--it's intuitive or automatic.
I dont know if you remember back when Bruyneel out sprinted Indurain for a stage
win in the '98 Tour, but he sat on Indurain's wheel--much like Gerrans did to Cancellara--
but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone saying that Bruyneel was the smartest rider
that day. Then there's the 2001 Paris-Roubaix: was Knaven the smartest rider
(smarter than Hincapie or Dierckxsens) that day because at crunch-time he was in a
six-man breakaway with three teammates and used that tactical advantage to help
him win that race? Maybe to some that seems sensible, but to me that's amazingly
ridiculous. If people want to have hissy-fit because (and I don't mean you, obviously)
I wont tow the company-line and agree that Gerrans was super-duper smart because
he won in part by sitting on Cancellara's wheel, have at it. It's only the interwebz; it
aint all that serious.
03-20-12, 07:52 AM
#53
Senior Member
Look, I don't begrudge Gerrans for his victory. These guys get paid to win, and
Gerrans employed tactics that he thought were best to that end; and he won.
But my disagreement with the notion that he's somehow the "smartest," or he was
incredibly tactically astute for doing so. I don't agree. To me, that is no smarter than
a person drinking water when (s)he's thirsty--it's intuitive or automatic.
I dont know if you remember back when Bruyneel out sprinted Indurain for a stage
win in the '98 Tour, but he sat on Indurain's wheel--much like Gerrans did to Cancellara--
but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone saying that Bruyneel was the smartest rider
that day. Then there's the 2001 Paris-Roubaix: was Knaven the smartest rider
(smarter than Hincapie or Dierckxsens) that day because at crunch-time he was in a
six-man breakaway with three teammates and used that tactical advantage to help
him win that race? Maybe to some that seems sensible, but to me that's amazingly
ridiculous. If people want to have hissy-fit because (and I don't mean you, obviously)
I wont tow the company-line and agree that Gerrans was super-duper smart because
he won in part by sitting on Cancellara's wheel, have at it. It's only the interwebz; it
aint all that serious.
Gerrans employed tactics that he thought were best to that end; and he won.
But my disagreement with the notion that he's somehow the "smartest," or he was
incredibly tactically astute for doing so. I don't agree. To me, that is no smarter than
a person drinking water when (s)he's thirsty--it's intuitive or automatic.
I dont know if you remember back when Bruyneel out sprinted Indurain for a stage
win in the '98 Tour, but he sat on Indurain's wheel--much like Gerrans did to Cancellara--
but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone saying that Bruyneel was the smartest rider
that day. Then there's the 2001 Paris-Roubaix: was Knaven the smartest rider
(smarter than Hincapie or Dierckxsens) that day because at crunch-time he was in a
six-man breakaway with three teammates and used that tactical advantage to help
him win that race? Maybe to some that seems sensible, but to me that's amazingly
ridiculous. If people want to have hissy-fit because (and I don't mean you, obviously)
I wont tow the company-line and agree that Gerrans was super-duper smart because
he won in part by sitting on Cancellara's wheel, have at it. It's only the interwebz; it
aint all that serious.
And yes, I remember Bruyneel's win. And yes, for him it was smart. He wouldn't have won any other way.
Who do you think was the smartest rider on the day?
03-20-12, 10:53 AM
#54
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Look, I don't begrudge Gerrans for his victory. These guys get paid to win, and
Gerrans employed tactics that he thought were best to that end; and he won.
But my disagreement with the notion that he's somehow the "smartest," or he was
incredibly tactically astute for doing so. I don't agree. To me, that is no smarter than
a person drinking water when (s)he's thirsty--it's intuitive or automatic.
I dont know if you remember back when Bruyneel out sprinted Indurain for a stage
win in the '98 Tour, but he sat on Indurain's wheel--much like Gerrans did to Cancellara--
but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone saying that Bruyneel was the smartest rider
that day. Then there's the 2001 Paris-Roubaix: was Knaven the smartest rider
(smarter than Hincapie or Dierckxsens) that day because at crunch-time he was in a
six-man breakaway with three teammates and used that tactical advantage to help
him win that race? Maybe to some that seems sensible, but to me that's amazingly
ridiculous. If people want to have hissy-fit because (and I don't mean you, obviously)
I wont tow the company-line and agree that Gerrans was super-duper smart because
he won in part by sitting on Cancellara's wheel, have at it. It's only the interwebz; it
aint all that serious.
Gerrans employed tactics that he thought were best to that end; and he won.
But my disagreement with the notion that he's somehow the "smartest," or he was
incredibly tactically astute for doing so. I don't agree. To me, that is no smarter than
a person drinking water when (s)he's thirsty--it's intuitive or automatic.
I dont know if you remember back when Bruyneel out sprinted Indurain for a stage
win in the '98 Tour, but he sat on Indurain's wheel--much like Gerrans did to Cancellara--
but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone saying that Bruyneel was the smartest rider
that day. Then there's the 2001 Paris-Roubaix: was Knaven the smartest rider
(smarter than Hincapie or Dierckxsens) that day because at crunch-time he was in a
six-man breakaway with three teammates and used that tactical advantage to help
him win that race? Maybe to some that seems sensible, but to me that's amazingly
ridiculous. If people want to have hissy-fit because (and I don't mean you, obviously)
I wont tow the company-line and agree that Gerrans was super-duper smart because
he won in part by sitting on Cancellara's wheel, have at it. It's only the interwebz; it
aint all that serious.
And what is smart for the GC contender is to make sure the understanding is clear and both men work to the end for maximum time and that the other gets his reward in a stage win. Really smart is waht Gilberto Simoni did in hte 2001 Giro on stage 13 where when Julio Perez Cuapio who had been working with him blew up and Simoni could have honorably dropped him instead towed him to the finish and gave him the win. You can bet any rider in hte future knew Simoni honored deals.
I count Gerrans smart not for sitting on the wheel. As I made clear in my previous post I considered him smart for working just enough to keep Cancallara working and the group ahead of the chase group. The odds are excellent that if he had not taken that one pull that even if Cancellara had kept working they would have been caught. And if Cancellara had gotten frustrated and either sat up enve briefly or tried to pause and drop the other 2 they wopuld have been caught for sure.
And that is the point of real thoguth in sport. It is often the little tjhgnis that do nto get mentioned that make the difference.
03-20-12, 02:22 PM
#55
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I count Gerrans smart not for sitting on the wheel. As I made clear in my previous post I considered him smart for working just enough to keep Cancallara working and the group ahead of the chase group. The odds are excellent that if he had not taken that one pull that even if Cancellara had kept working they would have been caught. And if Cancellara had gotten frustrated and either sat up enve briefly or tried to pause and drop the other 2 they wopuld have been caught for sure.
And that is the point of real thoguth in sport. It is often the little tjhgnis that do nto get mentioned that make the difference.
And that is the point of real thoguth in sport. It is often the little tjhgnis that do nto get mentioned that make the difference.
03-20-12, 02:47 PM
#56
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Always refreshing to read your stuff Keith. I'm 100% sure that both Cancellara and Gerrans understood their situation perfectly and they both played their best hand. Cancellara may have been able to bluff his willingness to get caught by the chasers for a few seconds but he obviously liked his chances better with the move he'd already committed to.
The past couple of years for Cancallera has me realizing more an more just how good some of the older riders were. Anyone who thinks Merckx, Hinault, van Looy, Coppi or Binda were not marked just as much are living in a dream world. I think Hinault had a year where he won the Pernod Super Prestige and seemed to not have that many wins. I'm thinking that perhaps that year he had a lot of marked seconds.
03-20-12, 03:09 PM
#57
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Sitting on the wheel of a GC contender in a tour hardly takes brains. What is smart in htat situation is something very different. It is working with the GC contender and making sure the 2 of you stay away and either creating an understanding or finally sitting on his wheel at the end when staying away is well assured.
And what is smart for the GC contender is to make sure the understanding is clear and both men work to the end for maximum time and that the other gets his reward in a stage win. Really smart is waht Gilberto Simoni did in hte 2001 Giro on stage 13 where when Julio Perez Cuapio who had been working with him blew up and Simoni could have honorably dropped him instead towed him to the finish and gave him the win. You can bet any rider in hte future knew Simoni honored deals.
I count Gerrans smart not for sitting on the wheel. As I made clear in my previous post I considered him smart for working just enough to keep Cancallara working and the group ahead of the chase group. The odds are excellent that if he had not taken that one pull that even if Cancellara had kept working they would have been caught. And if Cancellara had gotten frustrated and either sat up enve briefly or tried to pause and drop the other 2 they wopuld have been caught for sure.
And that is the point of real thoguth in sport. It is often the little tjhgnis that do nto get mentioned that make the difference.
And what is smart for the GC contender is to make sure the understanding is clear and both men work to the end for maximum time and that the other gets his reward in a stage win. Really smart is waht Gilberto Simoni did in hte 2001 Giro on stage 13 where when Julio Perez Cuapio who had been working with him blew up and Simoni could have honorably dropped him instead towed him to the finish and gave him the win. You can bet any rider in hte future knew Simoni honored deals.
I count Gerrans smart not for sitting on the wheel. As I made clear in my previous post I considered him smart for working just enough to keep Cancallara working and the group ahead of the chase group. The odds are excellent that if he had not taken that one pull that even if Cancellara had kept working they would have been caught. And if Cancellara had gotten frustrated and either sat up enve briefly or tried to pause and drop the other 2 they wopuld have been caught for sure.
And that is the point of real thoguth in sport. It is often the little tjhgnis that do nto get mentioned that make the difference.
never suggested, nor have I read anyone on this thread say that,
Gerrans wasn't "smart." What I have suggested, or at least have tried
to suggest, was that Gerrans was no smarter than Cancellara; which
means that I don't agree that he was the smartest rider.
If you go back and look this dispute was whether he was the smartest rider "on the day", meaning this race. Maybe he was the only rider physically capable of doing what he did. If that's your opinion, fine. But I don't think he is. I think he made an educated guess that Cancellara would have the winning move and was smart enough to be in right place when he made it.
And yes, I remember Bruyneel's win. And yes, for him it was smart. He wouldn't have won any other way.
Who do you think was the smartest rider on the day?
And yes, I remember Bruyneel's win. And yes, for him it was smart. He wouldn't have won any other way.
Who do you think was the smartest rider on the day?
03-20-12, 05:28 PM
#58
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I tend to agree with most of what you've written here. However, I
never suggested, nor have I read anyone on this thread say that,
Gerrans wasn't "smart." What I have suggested, or at least have tried
to suggest, was that Gerrans was no smarter than Cancellara; which
means that I don't agree that he was the smartest rider.
I don't have an opinion on who was the smartest rider on that day or any other day.
never suggested, nor have I read anyone on this thread say that,
Gerrans wasn't "smart." What I have suggested, or at least have tried
to suggest, was that Gerrans was no smarter than Cancellara; which
means that I don't agree that he was the smartest rider.
I don't have an opinion on who was the smartest rider on that day or any other day.
I will argue however that Simoni was the smartest rider that one day.
03-20-12, 07:31 PM
#59
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Thanks. And I think I mistakenly wrote that it was the '98 Tour above; I meant the '95 Tour.
A lil surprised no one pointed that out.
A lil surprised no one pointed that out.
