AlmostTrick

That would be Does rotating weight really matter... a different thread. (spoiler: GNC video says it doesn't)

Thanks for mentioning gyroscopic precession. This thread surely can use it.

There must have been something wrong with your steering wheel bike, mine is actually quite easy to ride.

Sy Reene

I find when counting, it's hard to tell the steers from the bull

aclinjury

nope, you're wrong. Counter steer by definition is when your front tire is steered in the opposite of the direction of the turn. This happens when the rider first initially press on the bar for a split second to initiate the turn. After that, him continually pressing on the bar is not considered a counter steer anymore, but it's to prevent the gyroscopic effect of front wheel wanting to stand upright (which would cause the bike to go tangential and stop turning). You're not the only one confused on this subject. Don't believe me? Go ride your bike and take a sweeping corner, now turn your handlebar away from the turn so that the front wheel is turned away from the center of the arc (aka, countersteer) and see if you don't end up on the pavement.

tomato coupe

Steers usually wear shorts; bulls wear bib shorts.

JeffOYB

The question might be: lean off the bike how far? Also, I do it on all bike types, personally. I've mentioned CX and crits so far in my comments. I'd guess that shifting hips less than 1/2" to the inside on the saddle might gain a helpful few degrees of less lean.

I'm not recommending anything. Just wondering if anyone knows from experience about this ratio/proportion process regarding leaning and steering that I'm describing.

terrymorse 

That extra bit of “more upright lean” of the bike will not improve traction. Certainly not on the road.

It could prevent grounding a pedal on a fixie, but that is all.

livedarklions

Basically, this thread turned into bullshorts a while ago.

livedarklions

Are you saying there is such a process or are you asking if anyone does this? Sounds pretty silly to me.

seypat

I think it's the other way around around. The steers no longer have the man fruit that would keep the shorts from sliding down, so they resort to adding straps.

Which, begs the question, "What do a salvage person/company and a jock strap have in common?

livedarklions

I'm not a scientist of any kind, but I just don't believe this kind of analysis has any application in road cycling. As noted above several times, turning is the result of a combination of motions and instant adjustments performed by the rider, and virtually none of these component actions are performed consciously. I decide which way I'm turning, the speed I'm going on the turn and the line I'm taking around the turn. I honestly have no idea how my body actually executes those "commands", it feels like it just happens.

​​​​​​I do know that I don't take turns the exact same way with different bikes with different weight distributions, some can corner at high speed, some really don't handle that well. I suspect that's true to some extent with individual riders. Our weight and size are not standard issue, so the steering probably varies a lot from rider to rider. We get a "feel" for which turns work for us, but as I said above, I don't think people can consciously make the huge number of small decisions that go into performing and controlling a turn.

Your brain does a whole lot of stuff outside the conscious part of the brain. Locomotion and balance are definitely some of that stuff.

TL/DR: There might be a "proper ratio", but there's no reason to think that we're capable of consciously making that calculation, especially in real time.

aclinjury

you can countersteer in the middle of a turn... as long as you're not at maximum lean angle. Countersteering at max lean angle will result in a lowside.

aclinjury

For most of this thread, you've lobbing quips and discounting countersteering. And now finally, you made a somewhat senisble opinion. It's obvious you're interested in this debate.

At "medium" speeds, on relatively clear road without much obstables, where you have time to scan for what few obstacles ahead of you, then "bike control" does not require a high sense of immediacy, in this "calm" scenario, counter steering is done subconsciously, not much to think about.

At higher speed, with consecutive curves coming at you fast and furious, or with obstables jumping out at you unexpected (eg, a turning car), this is when your "normal" reactions go into "panic mode" (because your brain is not trained to handle such situations), it's in these situations that you need to practice counter steering, what was "instintively natural" in medium speeds is now not natural anymore at high speeds. When we discuss about "how counter steering can save you"... we tend to assume about the worse situation, the emergency situation, and these situations requires mock practices to perfect the brain/reflex reaction. You think those motogp racers acquire the countersteering skill naturally? no, they acquire the skills by riding from age 5 and perfected it by early 20s. That's over a decade to perfect it. If you tried to hop on a bike and do what they do, you'd crash at the very first corner, that's becaus there's nothing natural about their skills that you think you can "just know how to do", they are acquired thru repetitive practice... practice so much that those skills become "unconscious" and reflexes become imprinted and "natural" over time.

Happy Feet

How does motogp training relate to general bicycling? I'm pretty sure almost no one intentionally practices counter steering.
I say almost because there always seems to be someone who posts as the exception.

livedarklions

Funny, because when I do encounter those emergency situations, which does happen, I've handled the situation before I'm consciously aware of what I did, and my instinctive reactions appear to be pretty good. I know my hands are involved in some pretty high speed pothole evasion, so I have to assume I'm doing some counter-steering, but I honestly don't know consciously exactly what my hands are doing. I've been riding a bicycle since I was 4, and I do have a habit of riding very fast, so the skills of riding a bike, including steering and braking, do actually come naturally to me after 56 years of riding bikes.

I have no desire to learn to ride a motogp, whatever the hell that is, and I'm quite sure that I would be quite bad at it. I'm taking the OP's question to be more along the lines of "can someone who is an experienced bike rider consciously change their steering habits?" I'm going to go all in and say we don't really know what our steering habits really are, they're largely unconscious.

BTW, I'm specifically limiting this to road cycling because I really don't do much of anything else. My gravel riding is much slower and deliberate as I've come to it relatively late in life. I also am not very good at it unless what I'm riding on is a fairly road-like grade.

rydabent

On a DF bike most steering is initiated by an almost unconscious small lean followed by a counter steer.

When a DF rider goes to a recumbent, bents are usually described as having squirrely or strange handling. It is because on most bents your back is locked on to the back rest, and you cant make that little lean you are not aware of on a DF bike. For most riders, after 50 or so miles on a bent, the strange handling goes away because the rider depends more on what I call micro steering instead of the small shifts in weight you dont notice on a DF bike.

unterhausen

It's interesting that this thread concerns motorcycles so much. They are heavy and steering is changed significantly by that. You don't need to consciously countersteer with a bike because it does it itself. I will go so far as to wonder if doing it consciously is counterproductive.

JeffOYB

? It's maybe the most effective skill that I practice. My explanation should suggest that. What's silly about not crashing or about cornering with more options? Hmm, instead of saying "silly" -- which is actually silly -- since I'm asking about science, maybe give a reason why you think smth is silly when you say so? Or do you have a "coz I say so" approach to science?

JeffOYB

It might help if people indicate whether they do much crit or CX racing...

I dont recall mentioning traction. I see that I said the bike can be kept more upright. This might result in more traction (depends on what it does to the contact patch and tread area). It also results in the wheels not slipping out as much even if they might be skidding. ...More of an upright angle helps keep the bike (more) upright in a slippery corner. Right?

JeffOYB

PS: Not sure that I move my hips on the saddle. I push the saddle outward an inch or so. Just use the hip muscles to do that. To compensate for less of a lean and still make the same turn at the same speed, I need to steer the bars more. (Or countersteer them less?)

JeffOYB

Is everyone who is replying to this thread about fast flat (or uphill) cornering and cyclocross experienced in these kinds of riding? That is, I hope that everyone who is responding about tires slipping or sliding and how to control this and turn in such cases is very experienced in doing these things in a full range of conditions...

livedarklions

I think we're talking at cross-purposes here--I just don't believe the human brain works in the manner you seem to be describing. I'm sure there's a combination of actions people take that include leaning, countersteering, braking, pedaling and all sorts of actions to affect the turns. I just don't think anyone has the brain capacity to actually consciously calculate some sort of ratio in real time,and that treating these actions like they're somehow alternative approaches rather than a bunch of things we probably do in a sequence we're really not consciously aware of is probably inconsistent with everything I've ever read about neuroscience and proprioception, etc. That being said, maybe I'm having trouble seeing what you're describing because I'm not doing the kind of bicycling you are, so you're right, my "silly" remark was perhaps a bit too flip. My road biking may be too simple to pick up on the kind of nuances you're describing.

I do know that I'm pretty good at dancing around the edge of a pothole that I don't see until the last split second at 24 mph, and I have no idea how I'm actually performing the tight little turns needed to do that. I just know I'm using my hands.

livedarklions

What do you consider "fast flat" cornering? I think I do a lot of that, but I just ride fast, I don't race.

seypat

I think this is the best answer so far. I'll be doing a ride this weekend with lots of high speed descending and cornering. I'll get through it. After I'm through those sections, if you ask me how I did it I'll say, "Beats me, but it sure was fun!"

Sy Reene

I find butt wiggling (and the resulting shifting of weight) the quickest way to enact a steer. discuss

njkayaker

This guy isn't doing what he's saying he's doing.

If you look at the BMW roundel on the bars, it rotates left for left turns and right for right turns.

This video clearly shows countersteering.

The handle bar is turned away from the inside of the turn momentarily and then turns into the turn for the rest of the turn.

That isn't what "countersteering" means. The point of confusion is because you are being confusing.

It's the wheel pointing this way briefly that is "countersteering".