rustymongrel

Hey folks, I'm doing some market research for a new track frame that is in the early stages of development. I've put together a two page survey and would appreciate it if you could fill it out. If you have any feedback on the content of the survey let me know.

If this sort of request is not permitted I apologize in advance!

Track Racing Frames Survey

Feel free to post the link elsewhere or send the link directly to anyone you think would have good input. I would like to get it on the various track racing facebook groups but would prefer not to post myself in order maintain anonymity.

Kaben

Is this for commercial or personal / enthusiast use? Might be worth clarifying in the survey

rustymongrel

It's for commercial use, I guess I should be more explicit about that. The track market is small and yet so many manufacturers can't seem to get things right. I want to use the feedback from this survey to make the best possible track bike.

At this point between the three locations I posted links I've received over 100 responses so I've decided to close it. Thanks everyone who took the time to respond!

Kaben

Sorry, it wasn't meant as an attack - just thought you might get more response if that was disclosed, but i guess its a moot point now anyway. I hope you got some good data.

carleton

Amen.

They are so simple to get right and so easy to mess up.

Looking back, it seems like Mr. Tiemeyer hit the nail on the head with his designs. His aluminum bikes were as aerodynamic as top carbon bikes (he is an aeronautical or aerospace engineer by training) and just as light and stiff. Ti dropouts, round seatposts. Standard fork and stems.. A rider could even fly out and have a personal fitting with him and get custom geometry & sizes. Want a more slack head tube? No problem. Want a more upright seat tube? No problem. Want a higher BB shell? No problem...and even a custom powdercoat color from the best bicycle powdercoat company in the US...all for $1,700USD. The man would even use custom tubing thicknesses based on the rider's torque output. Meaning, thinner riders would get thinner tubes (and a lighter frame) and heavier, stronger riders would get thicker tubes (and a heavier, beefier frame).

And these were UCI compliant with sticker and all.

I've never heard of such with Dolan, LOOK, BT, Felt, Avanti, etc..

You can't beat that.

The only (perceived) downside is that they were aluminum in a carbon world. I think an unbiased, 3rd-party, scientific comparison between any new aluminum track frame head to head against the top carbon frames testing stiffness and aerodynamics would go a long way in convincing serious elites and masters that aluminum is as good as carbon and the money saved could go towards other things (travel, wheels, wind tunnel time, coaching, etc...)

No problem. Good luck and keep us posted.

rustymongrel

Aero testing is pretty easy these days. An indoor track and a power meter can get some very accurate data. Not too difficult with track bikes to swap everything over or even have doubles of certain items (cranks, chain, pedals) to expedite changeovers between runs.

Stiffness is more difficult to test and one thing I found in this survey is that while there were a lot of responses saying that stiffness was an important trait people were looking for in a frame, only 2/114 respondants indicated that they found a current or past frame of theirs wasn't stiff enough. I think that for everyone there is a point at which a bike is stiff enough for them and any additional stiffness is not going gain anything. I think for us non-world class athletes pretty much any modern production track frame is going to be stiff enough.

Tiemeyers are certainly good bikes but that concept with some more tube forming in certain areas and some key changes to the front end could improve the aero performance and make a bike that could probably compete head to head with top carbon bikes. If I was doing my own thing and not working for a bike company I would pursue that direction. Work with a tubing supplier overseas to develop the profiles, have custom forks manufactured and build the frames myself.

carleton

I agree that most frames are stiff enough for most riders. But, to get the top riders on them and thus "screen time" for marketing, you'll need to show that it's as stiff as the $10,000 bikes that they are already getting for free or nearly free.

I'm not an engineer so of there are some in the house, please comment. But, maybe some sort of frame deflection test would work? Maybe:
- Lay the frame flat on its side supported by pipes through head tube and rear dropouts.
- Add weight/force to the BB shell to see how much it takes to deflect X millimeters.

rustymongrel

carleton

Ha! Yes, that thing exactly!

But, I'm suggesting that the independent tester have all bikes on hand in the same size (as close as possible) to have the tests administered the same way.

This would require that some athletes (or companies) load some frames for the test.

I'd be willing...assuming the test isn't to failure

rustymongrel

Stiffness testing shouldn't damage the frame since the loads are relatively low.