Campag Record RD shift quality sucks....
05-03-19, 03:16 AM
#26
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Campag Record RD shift quality sucks....
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05-03-19, 05:48 AM
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Weak? No. Adjusted too tight. Bingo.
Even though I was resigned to using the NR on it, I couldn't accept the Record derailleur as a paper weight. So I "played with it". And I noticed that the jockey cage was really stiff in movement. Decided to take it apart. Noticed the cage tension was on the maximum hole. So reassembled with it on "medium" hole and tried it. Better, but still hanging up on upshifts a bit. Back off and set the spring in the "minimum" hole. Remount and voila. Reasonably smooth shifting up and down. This was even on the 26T freewheel I had planned on using. I have since decided to use something smaller. Who am I kidding. I won't be doing any climbing with this bike. I am debating on using the Record at all as I guess the bushings are worn as the cage does not hold a vertical plane. Kind of noticeable on the largest cog, not so much as you go down. But for riding about the mostly flat it should be fine. Yes the hanger is square.
20190502_215953 by L Travers, on Flickr
20190502_223826 by L Travers, on Flickr
Even though I was resigned to using the NR on it, I couldn't accept the Record derailleur as a paper weight. So I "played with it". And I noticed that the jockey cage was really stiff in movement. Decided to take it apart. Noticed the cage tension was on the maximum hole. So reassembled with it on "medium" hole and tried it. Better, but still hanging up on upshifts a bit. Back off and set the spring in the "minimum" hole. Remount and voila. Reasonably smooth shifting up and down. This was even on the 26T freewheel I had planned on using. I have since decided to use something smaller. Who am I kidding. I won't be doing any climbing with this bike. I am debating on using the Record at all as I guess the bushings are worn as the cage does not hold a vertical plane. Kind of noticeable on the largest cog, not so much as you go down. But for riding about the mostly flat it should be fine. Yes the hanger is square.
20190502_215953 by L Travers, on Flickr
20190502_223826 by L Travers, on Flickr
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05-03-19, 09:16 AM
#28
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Could the derailleur in question possibly have a weak tension spring? Springs don't last forever.
To some of the other's experiences, before last year I'd never even seen a Campy derailleur in person. Out of curiosity, I put a Nuovo Record with Shimano pulleys on my Moto. Grand Sprint (patent '79) with a 14-24 6 speed Sunrace freewheel, KMC Z chain, and 52/40 up front. It shifts great. No overshifting. I don't cross chain, and the whole system works very smoothly. My only little complaint is that the shift lever bolt tends to work its way loose now and then. I like it as much as my Suntour Cyclone GT. Its gearing limitations are fine with me.
To some of the other's experiences, before last year I'd never even seen a Campy derailleur in person. Out of curiosity, I put a Nuovo Record with Shimano pulleys on my Moto. Grand Sprint (patent '79) with a 14-24 6 speed Sunrace freewheel, KMC Z chain, and 52/40 up front. It shifts great. No overshifting. I don't cross chain, and the whole system works very smoothly. My only little complaint is that the shift lever bolt tends to work its way loose now and then. I like it as much as my Suntour Cyclone GT. Its gearing limitations are fine with me.
Where chain flexibility hampers shifting responsiveness, the featured sprocket profiles together with the bulged-out chain sideplates takes back most of what the large chain gap and chain flex takes away.
I am remembering one bike that I set up with a C-Record derailer, a 12-28t HG cassette and HG chain, where I'd have to say the shifting performance truly surprised me, and where the bike's owner was quite happy as well.
05-03-19, 01:03 PM
#29
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Looks like you changed out the derailleur wheels as well.
05-03-19, 01:30 PM
#30
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That was the first thing done in my troubleshooting process. The old steel wheels were heavily worn and it sounded like the derailleur needed to be trimmed all the time.
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05-03-19, 01:46 PM
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OK, I'll stick up for the Campy...
I thought they were quite good, and all you needed for racing gearing. The toughness was important. They never failed. You could crash them multiple times, ride them for 50,000+ miles, and they just kept on ticking. If you did manage to break one in a crash or something - replacement parts were available. The same could not be said for Shimano or Suntour. I killed a Dura Ace EX derailleur in like half a season, through normal use. Shimano at the time did not have a slant cage design, so that's kind of a non comparison. I did have a Suntour on my touring bike (which double a couple times as a 'cross bike). Suntour was awesome. They worked great and were a great value, but let's not sugarcoat it. They did have failures. The springs would break was the main thing I remember. Saw lots of that in my wrenching days. Superbe was great stuff, but it cost as much as the campy and replacement parts were not readily available, therefore it was never that popular.
@Bandera was going on the other day about how when Shimano 7400 came out it changed everything. It is true. It was a giant leap forward in quality. The expiration of Suntour's patent was a very helpful factor as well. The new levels of quality and function quickly trickled down to their midrange lines. At the same time Campagnolo took a huge fall backwards. (syncro did suck) And here we are today...
[/soapbox]
I thought they were quite good, and all you needed for racing gearing. The toughness was important. They never failed. You could crash them multiple times, ride them for 50,000+ miles, and they just kept on ticking. If you did manage to break one in a crash or something - replacement parts were available. The same could not be said for Shimano or Suntour. I killed a Dura Ace EX derailleur in like half a season, through normal use. Shimano at the time did not have a slant cage design, so that's kind of a non comparison. I did have a Suntour on my touring bike (which double a couple times as a 'cross bike). Suntour was awesome. They worked great and were a great value, but let's not sugarcoat it. They did have failures. The springs would break was the main thing I remember. Saw lots of that in my wrenching days. Superbe was great stuff, but it cost as much as the campy and replacement parts were not readily available, therefore it was never that popular.
@Bandera was going on the other day about how when Shimano 7400 came out it changed everything. It is true. It was a giant leap forward in quality. The expiration of Suntour's patent was a very helpful factor as well. The new levels of quality and function quickly trickled down to their midrange lines. At the same time Campagnolo took a huge fall backwards. (syncro did suck) And here we are today...
[/soapbox]
Oh, Campy NR back in the day and 28 tooth freewheels. Everybody went that route for the Mt Washington hill climb. 42-28. Climber wimps need not apply. (Well not everybody. I always used a 28 front. 24 rear the 1st time (but I was not riding the time trial) and 21 the second time. That second time I built up a TA to be a 28 tooth single. Perfect, except for the flat 1/4 mile toll gate start to the up! My two starting companions were out of sight before I got to the hill.)
Ben
05-03-19, 02:31 PM
#32
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It's pretty tough to diagnose these things over the internet. A well set up Campagnolo NR RD should shift quickly and reliably. They won't shift under torque as well as modern derailleurs, but that has more to do with the profiled cog teeth than the derailleur.
That said, I've never used one personally with a freewheel cog bigger than a 24t, and I don't think I've even ever set one up with anything bigger than a 26t. (excluding the Spence Wolfe alpine mod versions). I know a lot of folks now run them with bigger freewheels up to a 28 or even more, but that just wasn't done BITD. It isn't their forte. Other RD would have been used. Campy's were optimized for the typical racing gearing of the past, i.e., 14-21.
What chain are you using now? Chain length can make a big difference. Try the BIG/small vertical jockey cage method if you previously were using the BIG/big plus one link method. A too short chain will exacerbate those issues, because you'll have less chain wrap when shifting into the bigger cogs.
Sedisports did indeed work well with NR/SR RD and Regina freewheels. It's hard to imagine some modern chains wouldn't work just as well though, but I don't know. SRAM 850 perhaps? My all campy Masi still has a sedisport.
That said, I've never used one personally with a freewheel cog bigger than a 24t, and I don't think I've even ever set one up with anything bigger than a 26t. (excluding the Spence Wolfe alpine mod versions). I know a lot of folks now run them with bigger freewheels up to a 28 or even more, but that just wasn't done BITD. It isn't their forte. Other RD would have been used. Campy's were optimized for the typical racing gearing of the past, i.e., 14-21.
What chain are you using now? Chain length can make a big difference. Try the BIG/small vertical jockey cage method if you previously were using the BIG/big plus one link method. A too short chain will exacerbate those issues, because you'll have less chain wrap when shifting into the bigger cogs.
Sedisports did indeed work well with NR/SR RD and Regina freewheels. It's hard to imagine some modern chains wouldn't work just as well though, but I don't know. SRAM 850 perhaps? My all campy Masi still has a sedisport.
05-03-19, 02:40 PM
#33
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Yes and I had problems on my 1968 Legnano. Personally, I think that putting improperly sealed bearings in the pulleys is not a good idea. I will go for the brass bushing every time. I even have a set of NOS Bullseye pullys and have no intention of installing them on anything.
I did switch to idler pulleys with teeth and brass bushings on the Legnano. That set-up worked a bit better but not with a 52/42 set of crank rings. You can see the droop of the chain. Will get it fixed when I get back, this summer...
I did switch to idler pulleys with teeth and brass bushings on the Legnano. That set-up worked a bit better but not with a 52/42 set of crank rings. You can see the droop of the chain. Will get it fixed when I get back, this summer...
05-03-19, 02:58 PM
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05-03-19, 05:19 PM
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Randy, can't you tighten the cage spring another notch and take up the chain sag?
I really have not had a chance to get back to the Legnano since my winter travels began last November. That said, both the Gran Sport and Record derailleurs worked just fine with this crank set...
But when I tried to install a newer crank set, with a considerable difference in ring sizes, that is when the problems began....
My take on the problems is the greater difference in ring sizes on the 49d. That said, this NOS Legnano cottered crank and bottom bracket are waiting for me, at home, right now. I will be using the old cottered ring set, though...
I am anxious to install th Legnano branded crank set and get the Leggy on the road again. Sadly, I am not sure that my 70 year old body has the ability to deal with the gearing defined by the larger small ring and the tighter cog set fitted to the bike...
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05-04-19, 06:39 AM
#36
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That derailleur almost requires a Regina Extra chain. Mike Kone at Boulder has a large supply of NOS. A Regina Extra freewheel would help a lot too. I am using this setup with 38-50 front and 14-26 rear and have zero problems. None. No setup tricks, put the pieces together and ride. In past have used same setup with 44-52 and 14-30(Regina Extra). Long enough ago I can't tell you how crisp it was. It did shift every time.
Those pulleys have ball bearings in them. Can't make heads or tails of various comments about improperly sealed and so forth.
Biggest problem with that derailleur is the pivot pins are tubular and always wear. When they get loose and sloppy not much can be done. The older Gran Sport derailleurs are better in every way that matters. Less likely a GS is going past 28 but shifts much faster.
Those pulleys have ball bearings in them. Can't make heads or tails of various comments about improperly sealed and so forth.
Biggest problem with that derailleur is the pivot pins are tubular and always wear. When they get loose and sloppy not much can be done. The older Gran Sport derailleurs are better in every way that matters. Less likely a GS is going past 28 but shifts much faster.
05-04-19, 06:46 AM
#37
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Took closer look at some of pics above. Seems you do not have the tubular pins. That derailleur generally looks much like an NR. Old Record was produced in small quantity a while after NR introduced.
The other one that stands out in pics, though it could be a camera distortion, is the derailleur tab seems to be bent slightly outboard.
The other one that stands out in pics, though it could be a camera distortion, is the derailleur tab seems to be bent slightly outboard.
05-04-19, 07:00 AM
#38
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Oh, Campy NR back in the day and 28 tooth freewheels. Everybody went that route for the Mt Washington hill climb. 42-28. Climber wimps need not apply. (Well not everybody. I always used a 28 front. 24 rear the 1st time (but I was not riding the time trial) and 21 the second time. That second time I built up a TA to be a 28 tooth single. Perfect, except for the flat 1/4 mile toll gate start to the up! My two starting companions were out of sight before I got to the hill.)
Ben
Dale Stetina set the record with a low of 42-30, all SR. He only used the 30 for the final ramp, rode the rest on 42x26. Dale was different.
05-06-19, 12:07 PM
#39
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I did Washington on 42x28 all NR. Had thought it was simply a stupid flatlander error. I did make it to the top. This would have been 90s. Second place that day went to a Polish guy who had same NR setup as I did, he told me he'd have been able to race, not survive, if he'd had lower gears. Firstplace went to a toll road employee on a clapped out early 70s Gitane, I think an Interclub. He rode no clips in Chuck Taylors.
Dale Stetina set the record with a low of 42-30, all SR. He only used the 30 for the final ramp, rode the rest on 42x26. Dale was different.
Dale Stetina set the record with a low of 42-30, all SR. He only used the 30 for the final ramp, rode the rest on 42x26. Dale was different.
On a much more serious (and current) level; has anyone heard how he is doing? He had that bad crash 6 years ago and suffered a very serious TBI with major repercussions. But I have been unable to learn how he has been progressing since his early rehab days. I read that getting back on the back of a tandem was huge for him. I hope he is still riding and in good spirits.
Ben
