awunder

So I've a Rolf Vector wheel that came with my 2001 LeMond Zurich. These wheels were actually made under license by Trek, and Rolf has pretty much disowned them.

Anyway, a couple of years ago, the spokes on the rear wheel drive side started getting tighter and tighter - I didn't really notice until they actually broke the hub flange! Pretty weird, but I found another set on eBay for low $ and that was that. And over the past years since, it's happened the the second wheel! The flange hasn't broken yet, but I fear it's inevitable at this point.

So has anyone ever experienced anything like this? Has anyone ever heard of anything like this? I'm big for a bicyclist, but not that big (190-200 lbs), and while the wheels are old, it just seems weird that they would both fail in this way. And the front ones are fine - no change to the spoke tension on either one.

Thoughts? Advise? Help?

dabac

Bill Kapaun

What were the measured tensions before & after?
Spokes don't get tighter unless someone took a spoke wrench to them.
Are you assuming they got tighter because you broke a flange?

awunder

Well... that's what my LBS said too until he saw the wheel. Hand to god, The spokes have, over time, gotten increasingly tight on the drive side, and pretty loose on the non-drive side. No one has touched them. When I got the replacement wheel last year or the year before the spokes on both sides were pretty even, tension-wise.

So the rim seems to be warping to the non-drive side, while (oddly enough) staying pretty straight and true.

Andrew R Stewart 

Maybe the OP has discovered the "cold fusion" of the bike world. How to add energy into a system without doing anything.

My first thought was like Bill's. How were the spoke tensions measured before and after. Andy

ljsense

It's a stretch, but if the nipples were alloy and were oxidizing, it's remotely possible that the oxidation (which has larger volume than the aluminum from which it formed) pulled the spokes a little tighter. This oxidation could also happen to an alloy rim bed. But I've never heard of that happening, or observed it. It seems way more likely that the hub flange just broke. I can't dream up another situation where spokes would spontaneously tighten.

Andrew R Stewart 

This, again, defies all known wheel structure dynamics. If the non drive side spoke lessen their tension then the rim shift to the drive side. If the drive side spoke increase their tension then the rim shifts to that side, again. Real life wheels have this obvious indicator as to what is the balance of tensions and the effect of that. It's called the rim. Follow the rim.

Now how tension is measured is variable. If a tension meter isn't applied the same way on each spoke then it's reading can vary. Add to that a spoke that is bladed and another layer of potential measured tension exists. Andy

TimothyH

Trek/Bontrager wheels failing is nothing new.

No one should be surprised when it happens. On the contrary, if you buy a Trek/Bontrager wheel, you should expect it to fail.

The internet is full of stories going back 15 years.

Keith Bontrager blogged that it was the riders fault for not rinsing off road salt after the ride. I remember there was a guy on a forum from Honolulu who was furious.


-Tim-

awunder

FYI to all - spoke tension was "measured" by hand - pinching the spokes. It's not super accurate, but gives a general baseline. Especially since, as I mentioned, they were all pretty consistently tensioned when I got them. Now spokes on the non-drive side are pretty loose, spoke son the drive side are super tight - they really don't give at all.

awunder

Well, see, that I did not know.

Sigh, now I'm sad. Didn't want to have to replace the wheels - they're pretty.

PPS - Never had any salt on them - road or otherwise. ;-)

Andrew R Stewart 

And mere pinching pairs of spokes is like not using a torque wrench to tighten bolts. Sure an experienced person has a better chance of not using a proper tension tool and understanding what's really going on but even us shop wrenches don't have the best touch all the time.

Plucking spokes to hear the tone they ring at is a better non tool method but still requires the plucker to have a good sense of tone and repetition/reproduction of notes. God knows this isn't the case for all.

One issue that pro service people see all the time is the customer's perception and the timing of the moment that said perception begins. That moment is rarely when the changes to the equipment has actually begun. But all understanding of the changes, by the customer, has been baselined at the moment of their awareness began. There's a disconnect that most are not aware of or even willing to accept. Andy

Homebrew01

You say "it's happened" with the 2nd wheels, but the flange isn't broken, so nothing has happened yet.

Ride them. Check the flanges regularly for cracks.
Have an EXPERIENCED mechanic take a look at spoke tension and give you an opinion on the wheels

awunder

I did have an EXPERIENCED mechanic go over the wheel, and he's stumped. He thinks they're okay to ride, but I worry that he may be discounting that a) this happened with another, identical wheel and b) they've gotten noticeably worse over time, so that another failure is inevitable. (It's not that I don't trust him, it's just that I figure with my luck the flange is going to fail while I'm riding the thing, and I'd rather that didn't happen.) The flange on the other wheel broke while it was hanging on the wall - upsetting, but not fatal.

So anybody got any recommendations for replacement wheels that would look nice on that bike and DON'T cost $1,000?

Spoonrobot 

It's not accurate at all. If you didn't measure with a tensiometer you have no measurement. Any judgement made is pure speculation with little basis in reality. See, this thread.

Litespud

Squeezing the spokes by hand is a pretty subjective way of gauging spoke tension especially over time, as the only yardstick you have is how tight you perceived them to be some time ago. This is pretty meaningless in the absence of some objective measuring system that generates actual numbers. Rolf spokes are always pretty tight - they're beefy bladed steel spokes in a low-spoke wheel (Vector Pros are 14F/16R). It's far more likely (although still a bit mysterious) that the NDS spokes are slackening over time, and that the DS spokes just feel tight in comparison. Even that's a little unlikely if your rim remains centered. Find another shop and have your spokes tensioned, or buy a tension gauge and do it yourself.
FWIW, my dailies are a pair of Rolf Vector Pros (the Rolf-disowned Trek products) that I've used full-time for >15 years. I'm ~180 lb, and these wheels have been, and remain, completely solid. Apart from replacing the front bearings years ago, they have required nothing.

awunder

Everyone seems to be going off on a tangent about spoke tension, etc. It's not speculation, the spokes are noticeably tighter than they were (and wobbly on the other side). But I don't have a tensiometer, and you're not coming over to the house to see that I'm not exaggerating, so it doesn't matter.

Saying that "it can't happen" and implying that it isn't happening because I didn't measure the spoke tension isn't actually helpful.

The only respondant who who doesn't seem to have missed the point was TimothyH who laid some hard truth and info that i didn't know: Trek wheels of that era are garbage and should be expected to replaced.

I didn't build these wheels. I haven't touched them at all other than cleaning. They came with the bike (which I'm fond of).

Litespud

Discussing spoke tension is hardly going off on a tangent when your original post stated "Anyway, a couple of years ago, the spokes on the rear wheel drive side started getting tighter and tighter". TimothyH may be the only respondent to didn't express skepticism that your spokes were mysteriously tightening themselves to the point of breaking the DS flange without the rim moving off center. The first is nonsensical, and the second flies in the face of everyone who's ever trued a wheel. Periodic squeezing over a couple of years is no way to conclude that spokes are becoming progressively tighter. Measure them and establish an actual baseline

calstar 

The experienced mechanic you had look at your wheel didn't have a tension tool?? Take the wheel to a mechanic /shop that has a tensionometer, otherwise you're wasting your time.

Brian

awunder

Oi.

I'll send you the wheel and you can see for yourselves. Nonsensical it may be: but there it is. Spokes should be roughly the same tension all around not all tight on one side and all loose on the other. When I got the replacement wheel, they were not all tight on one side and all loose on the other. Now they are. And I would certainly notice if the brakes started to rub!

Matt and Errol at Mad Dog Bikes both agree - rim is straight and true, but spokes on one side are crazy tight, and that's not right.

Homebrew01

Rear wheels have tighter spoke tension on the drive side than on the non-drive side. That is by design, since the hub flanges are not centered between the frame dropouts, but the rim needs to be. The higher drive side tension is needed to center the rim closer to the drive side hub flange.

If the mechanic judges the spoke tension to be normal, then ride them, or sell them for cheap to someone, and explain you are nervous about them.

fietsbob

Is it riding weather yet?

Homebrew01

There are gazillions of good wheels under $1000. Expensive wheels mainly buy you a little less weight, if that's important.

Litespud

OK, well, I guess it'll have to remain one of life's mysteries. On a separate note, it's a shame that they're playing up - they're good-looking wheels, and in my experience at least, bulletproof. I imagine that one day I'm going to wear through one or other brake track, but since Rolf don't support them (and maintain that parts are not interchangeable with current Rolf Primas), I'll be faced with consigning the otherwise excellent Hugi hubs to the parts bin and seeking a replacement wheelset. Not wild about spending a grand on a pair of Campagnolos - may end up with a pair of custom wheels, but even these are likely to be ~$500 anyway

awunder

Well, this is exactly where I'm at. I like them - they're attractive, they match the bike, and they've stayed true. And the front one is no issue.

On the other hand I don't want them to fail while I'm in a hard corner. And if they're really doomed, I'd like to be out in front of it before it actually happens.

Homebrew01

It would be interesting to accurately compare the drive side tension between the 2 rear wheels.
Perhaps the broken one was too high.