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Orthodoxy Part 1

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Orthodoxy Part 1

Old 12-27-20, 02:06 PM
  #26  
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Old 12-27-20, 02:39 PM
  #27  
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Nothing to see here,move along folks,
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Old 12-27-20, 03:14 PM
  #28  
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The OP has a overall point about orthodoxy , and specific to Centurion SN, a good point.
In fact there WAS a bunch of "orthodoxy" on Centurion Ironman.
Also, wake me up when it's 2021.
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Old 12-27-20, 03:32 PM
  #29  
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Part 3: lost me all together, much like why there should never be sequels to great movies

Listen fellas, I love this sight because I can come on here and scroll through cool old bike parts and think of what I can do with them. I can see someones cool rebuild and be inspired. Or I can scroll through great questions about info someone is needing, or a great observation that can be added to a huge database of most other guys that know freaking alot more about this than I do, and I have just been riding 35yr now.

I'm no attorney, actually never wanted to be and when my lovely wife of 31 years starts talking about word usage and splitting hairs about serial numbers intentions....I'm sorry, I'm gonna take a nap
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Old 12-27-20, 04:01 PM
  #30  
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I thought the letter referred to the manufacturer. I do have a mid 80's Centurion with no letter in the serial number at all. That doesn't seem to be very orthodox.
I do like the way the OP put it in layman's terms. I've had trouble sleeping lately. This thread however, makes me want to lay down and snooze.
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Old 12-27-20, 04:08 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
I really donít think that something is perceived to be a fact because it gets published in a book. Well, maybe some will perceive it that way, but authors have little control over readersí interpretations.
. . .
Helpful text on this topic is Stephen Jay Gouldís Mismeasure of Man.
Also helpful is Frances Widdowson's Disrobing the Aboriginal Industry. The "disrobing" is a reference to The Emporer's New Clothes.
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Old 12-27-20, 04:19 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
There was a recent thread talking about "thread stoppers" or "thread killers" and to be honest I never even got around to reading that thread. . . .
I think the dynamic is akin to playing hide-and-seek outside where you have lots of places to hide in. By the time it's your turn to hide, you are really into it because you have found this great place where no one will find you. But after a long while in hiding, you emerge ...only to find out the next day that all your friends snuck over to somebody's house where they watched TV and ate potato chips all afternoon.
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Old 12-28-20, 12:19 AM
  #33  
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TL, DR:

OP disagrees on some of the finer points of Japanese bike serials and wants to know the sources of the information.

/thread

-Kurt
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Old 12-28-20, 11:21 AM
  #34  
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Part 4. Korn Ferry Institute

I forgot to assign this as homework yesterday.

Here is a link to "Georgena Terry's Long-Distance Ride", you can read it and see what you think.

https://issuu.com/kornferryinternati...-distance_ride

If at some point this link no longer works I have a copy of the article and can forward that to you.

I know that most vintage bicycle fans know what the Korn Ferry Institute is about, but for those of you who do not:

https://www.kornferry.com/about-us

"Korn Ferry is a global organizational consulting firm

We work with clients to design their organizational structures, roles and responsibilities.
We help them hire the right people and advise them on how to reward, develop and motivate their workforce.
And, we help professionals navigate and advance their careers."


Hmmmm. You just know your going to learn about vintage bicycles and the bicycle industry from this company.

The article, "Georgena Terry's Long-Distance Ride", was written by Lawrence M. Fisher.

"Lawrence M. Fisher has written for the New York Times, Strategy + Business and many other publications.
He is based in San Francisco."

https://www.kornferry.com/about-us/c...lawrencefisher

https://www.strategy-business.com/au...ence+M.+Fisher

He does not appear to have written anything about the bicycle industry prior to this.

In the link, the article is dated April 1, 2011. April Fools day. From the images the article was published 2Q 2011.

The article is in the Cool Companies section. The article is about the career of Georgena Terry and there are some references to the bicycle industry.

The section of the article sub-headed "The Booming '80s" is where the references to H. Tano and Company are. In one sentence before the references to H. Tano and Company the author says,

"Japanese manufacturers, like Nishiki and Bridgestone, faced off with new American brands, like Trek Bicycles and Cannondale Bicycle,
for the cycling enthusist's dollar, while venerable European makes, like Raleigh and Peugeot, faded."

Four paragraphs later the author clearly says "Terry's Japanese manufacturer, H. Tano and Company of Kobe, also produced bikes for Western States Imports, ...".

One can tell that Mr. Lawrence Fisher knocked himself out doing research about the bicycle industry in the 1980s prior to sitting down and writing this article.

"Japanese manufacturers, like Nishiki". Really.

I always thought that Nishiki was a brand name. Well I stand corrected.

We should all just ignore the previous reports about Kawamura Sangyo manufacturing bicycles and putting the "Nishiki" brand on them for West Coast Cycle Supply Company.


How did the author know that H. Tano and Company manufactured bicycles? The same way that he knew that Nishiki was a Japanese manufacturer?

I have my doubts about the research used in this article, but you decide for yourself.


This article was published more than 5 years after member @T-Mar's first assertion of "reportedly Tano" in February 2006.
The author may have done research and used information which included the idea of H. Tano and Co. as manufacturer which originated in bikeforums.net.

Was the author using his own research that referenced bikeforms.net? or
Was the author quoting or summarizing someone else who had read the Tano references in bikeforms.net?

If so, then someone in bikeforums.net referenced this article on the idea that "Tano manufactured", it would be a circular reference.


Is the Korn Ferry Institute article a credible confirmation of H. Tano and Company being a bicycle manufacturing company?

You will have to decide for yourself.


- - - -

Once again ladies and gentlemen, we kindly ask that you hold your questions until the end.
There will be a question and answer period following the presentation.

Also please keep conversations in the audience to a minimum as it distracts others who may be enjoying the presentation.


- - -

"If you can put up with that you can put up with anything."

Johnny Rotten on stage at the Winterland Ballroom, San Francisco, California 01/14/78
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Old 12-28-20, 11:36 AM
  #35  
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How about asking @T-Mar himself? He's obviously well versed in the history that he brings to this forum and doesn't have anything to hide by explaining how he has come of his information.

Hint: He has probably spent much effort and many hours of reaching out directly to the people who were involved in the development and import of these products, or making contacts up the pecking order until he could get the ear of the people who were there BITD and have the answers. Their non-disclosure agreements have long since expired, so the information can be freely shared.

That, of course, is a guess - but it is how I've learned a lot about the history of many bike share programs. Most NDAs haven't expired in that field either, making it exceptionally difficult to learn about those bikes.

I can appreciate your desire to learn more about where this information has come from, but you aren't going to get an answer by basically backstabbing him in public, framing a conspiracy theory around him, and blaming him for underachieving journalists who make errors in secondary research by leeching off his writings.

I've done some - though far less - research than T-Mar, and reading your four Theories of Orthodoxy give me sympathy pains for him. @nlerner delivered his criticism of my serial charts with dignity and fact. You, on the other hand, are - well, there's no other way to say it - being an arse about it.

Maybe you don't think of it that way, but that's the way it reads. Especially since your attempt to control the conversations also, in effect, allows you to play judge, jury, and executioner.

If you'd like to know how he came about his information, start by showing a bit of respect. He's not going to give you the time of day the way you're going about it.

Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
Also please keep conversations in the audience to a minimum as it distracts others who may be enjoying the presentation.


There isn't anyone here enjoying the presentation except you, and a few who are getting a whole lot of unintentional laughs out of it.

-Kurt
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Last edited by cudak888; 12-28-20 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 12-28-20, 12:33 PM
  #36  
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I'm in agreement with the views expressed in post #36, above. The OP seems to raise a valid question or two, but his patronizing attitude is offensive and inconsistent with the spirit of honest inquiry that has always prevailed around here. I would add that anyone who makes a public issue of misspellings or typos in another's posts would do well to proofread his own posts before pushing the "submit" button.
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Old 12-28-20, 03:02 PM
  #37  
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BF Orthodoxy:
-my chain lube is better than yours.
-Schwinn Varsity’s are effective boat anchors
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Old 12-28-20, 03:17 PM
  #38  
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Agreeing with others that "tribunal" is a weird choice to present this extended counterpoint. It's not like T-Mar is a paid researcher for the Institute on Bicycle Arcana for Limited Audiences. I'm more likely to say "thank you" and contribute where I can. But whatever, it's your time and social capital, do with it what you will.
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Old 12-28-20, 03:21 PM
  #39  
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This has been the toughest assemblage of words to read (let alone comprehend) that I've read in some time. I'd advise putting down the shovel.
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Old 12-28-20, 04:01 PM
  #40  
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What's amazing to me is the level of effort put into refuting what may be the most obscure little serial number side-note ever posited.

That said, being amazed is fun.

Do please continue.
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Old 12-28-20, 04:28 PM
  #41  
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Never underestimate the ability of pedantic nonsense to suck the fun out of ANY pursuit.

Seems to be an abundance of that on this forum lately.

Still plenty of fantastic threads and contributing members to out weigh the ill effects of the joy vacuum.
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Old 12-28-20, 04:29 PM
  #42  
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Most of the regulars here are enthusiasts and openly relate their extensive experiences to others who ask. Sometimes we're in error.
You should write a paper or book about the industry in the 80's. Just don't make the mistake of relying on internet sources and attribution without attempting to do real research and ask the people who were very involved with the industry in that time frame. Like T-Mar and many others here.

We are the orthodoxy and hereby command that we put thee on a scale to see if you weigh the same as a duck. If so, you will be burned as a witch.

Originally Posted by Hummer View Post

Is the Korn Ferry Institute article a credible confirmation of H. Tano and Company being a bicycle manufacturing company?

You will have to decide for yourself.


- - - -

Once again ladies and gentlemen, we kindly ask that you hold your questions until the end.
There will be a question and answer period following the presentation.

Also please keep conversations in the audience to a minimum as it distracts others who may be enjoying the presentation.


- - -

"If you can put up with that you can put up with anything."

Johnny Rotten on stage at the Winterland Ballroom, San Francisco, California 01/14/78
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Old 12-28-20, 04:44 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by BFisher View Post
joy vacuum.
You just won the tribute band naming contest!
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Old 12-28-20, 05:24 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
Begin the experiment.

I have been a member of bikeforums.net for several years.

In that time I have seen different ideas presented in threads.

These ideas are sometimes repeated or quoted in other threads by other members.

Eventually some of these ideas are taken as fact, probably because they have been repeated so many times.

These ideas take on an orthodoxy and it becomes difficult for any member to dispute or argue against.

Some of these ideas, which may have started in this forum, even move beyond this forum and are put forward as fact in publications and other websites.

This is in fact why I am writing this series of articles.


Recently I have read in two separate places where an orthodox idea from bikeforums.net, which has not been fully verified, has been published.
This idea will no doubt be considered a fact because it is published in a book.

Sometimes on this forum I read posts that state something that does not sound quite right or does not fit with things that I have observed.

I want to say something about the questionable idea but I do not have anything concrete to counter with or the argument against the idea is complex and cannot be easily presented by me in a sentence or a paragraph.

What to do when you want to question orthodox beliefs?

Over the next days I intend to put forward information that challenges two ideas that have been present in the bikeforums.net for more than a decade.
These ideas relate to the origin and serial numbers of vintage Japanese bicycles largely associated with one brand name, Centurion from Western States Imports.

- - - -

There will be a question and answer period at the end of the presentation. We kindly ask that you hold your questions until that time.


- - - -

"Do you want your ears blown out some more?"

Johnny Rotten on stage at the Winterland Ballroom, San Francisco, California 01/14/78
And they want to ban me.
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Old 12-28-20, 05:28 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
I forgot to assign this as homework yesterday.

Here is a link to "Georgena Terry's Long-Distance Ride", you can read it and see what you think.

https://issuu.com/kornferryinternati...-distance_ride

If at some point this link no longer works I have a copy of the article and can forward that to you.

I know that most vintage bicycle fans know what the Korn Ferry Institute is about, but for those of you who do not:

https://www.kornferry.com/about-us

"Korn Ferry is a global organizational consulting firm

We work with clients to design their organizational structures, roles and responsibilities.
We help them hire the right people and advise them on how to reward, develop and motivate their workforce.
And, we help professionals navigate and advance their careers."


Hmmmm. You just know your going to learn about vintage bicycles and the bicycle industry from this company.

The article, "Georgena Terry's Long-Distance Ride", was written by Lawrence M. Fisher.

"Lawrence M. Fisher has written for the New York Times, Strategy + Business and many other publications.
He is based in San Francisco."

https://www.kornferry.com/about-us/c...lawrencefisher

https://www.strategy-business.com/au...ence+M.+Fisher

He does not appear to have written anything about the bicycle industry prior to this.

In the link, the article is dated April 1, 2011. April Fools day. From the images the article was published 2Q 2011.

The article is in the Cool Companies section. The article is about the career of Georgena Terry and there are some references to the bicycle industry.

The section of the article sub-headed "The Booming '80s" is where the references to H. Tano and Company are. In one sentence before the references to H. Tano and Company the author says,

"Japanese manufacturers, like Nishiki and Bridgestone, faced off with new American brands, like Trek Bicycles and Cannondale Bicycle,
for the cycling enthusist's dollar, while venerable European makes, like Raleigh and Peugeot, faded."

Four paragraphs later the author clearly says "Terry's Japanese manufacturer, H. Tano and Company of Kobe, also produced bikes for Western States Imports, ...".

One can tell that Mr. Lawrence Fisher knocked himself out doing research about the bicycle industry in the 1980s prior to sitting down and writing this article.

"Japanese manufacturers, like Nishiki". Really.

I always thought that Nishiki was a brand name. Well I stand corrected.

We should all just ignore the previous reports about Kawamura Sangyo manufacturing bicycles and putting the "Nishiki" brand on them for West Coast Cycle Supply Company.


How did the author know that H. Tano and Company manufactured bicycles? The same way that he knew that Nishiki was a Japanese manufacturer?

I have my doubts about the research used in this article, but you decide for yourself.


This article was published more than 5 years after member @T-Mar's first assertion of "reportedly Tano" in February 2006.
The author may have done research and used information which included the idea of H. Tano and Co. as manufacturer which originated in bikeforums.net.

Was the author using his own research that referenced bikeforms.net? or
Was the author quoting or summarizing someone else who had read the Tano references in bikeforms.net?

If so, then someone in bikeforums.net referenced this article on the idea that "Tano manufactured", it would be a circular reference.


Is the Korn Ferry Institute article a credible confirmation of H. Tano and Company being a bicycle manufacturing company?

You will have to decide for yourself.


- - - -

Once again ladies and gentlemen, we kindly ask that you hold your questions until the end.
There will be a question and answer period following the presentation.

Also please keep conversations in the audience to a minimum as it distracts others who may be enjoying the presentation.


- - -

"If you can put up with that you can put up with anything."

Johnny Rotten on stage at the Winterland Ballroom, San Francisco, California 01/14/78
Glad I came late to it Whatever it is.
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Old 12-28-20, 05:30 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
One of the orthodox ideas that exists has to do with date encoding within a serial number of a Japanese frame manufacturer.

This in itself is not very important but it demonstrates that once an idea has been put out into the public realm and that idea takes hold, then it is difficult to change the public perception of that idea.

The specific serial number type is the "N" prefix serial number, followed by a digit which indicates the year of frame manufacture, followed by a letter which indicates a time period within the year, followed by four digits. This format of serial number is most often scene on several models of Centurion brand bicycles from 1978 to 1989. This format of serial number is also found with other brands including, but not limited to: Diamond Back MTBs, Novara, and Terry.

It was the orthodox opinion on bikeforums.net that the time period for the letter was a fortnight.

In October of 2017 I showed an analysis of this format of serial number and demonstrated that the time period represented by the letter was more probably a month than a fortnight.
I will not repeat the report on the analysis here. The analysis is in this post in the centurion serial number database thread:

https://www.bikeforums.net/19917187-post2203.html

To my knowledge, no one has contradicted or questioned this analysis.

However within bikeforums.net the belief persists that the letter represents not a month but a fortnight.

Another note on this topic. Bicycle manufacturing goes on a yearly cycle. Bicycle production at a factory is not constant from month to month.
Distributors and retailers in North America order seasonally. They order at the end of one year for the next years spring.

Bicycle factories do much of their production in the last quarter of the year.

If the time period letter in "N" type serial numbers is for a fortnight there should be plenty of letters T, U, V, W, X, Y, and Z. These letters would represent the fourth quarter. In the Centurion serial number record of "N" type serial numbers these letters are never reported or almost never reported. This would mean that almost no bicycles were manufactured in the fourth quarter by whoever was the manufacturer.

In the monthly proposal the Letters N, P, and S would represent the last three months of the year. These letters are reported frequently in the N serial numbers. This correlates with the frame manufacturing season.

Does the letter in the "N" type serial numbers represent fortnight or month? You decide.

- - -

"Hey, what was that that just hit me in the head. It didn't hurt a bit."

Johnny Rotten on stage at the Winterland Ballroom, San Francisco, California 01/14/78
Too many trips to the dispensary. Scotty, you know what to do...
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Old 12-28-20, 05:32 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
Another orthodox idea that has long been present on the vintage enthusiasts bikeforums.net is about a Japanese company: H. Tano and Company.

The idea that has been put forward is that H. Tano and company is reportedly to have manufactured bicycles for the USA brand name Centurion.

It is unclear to me what is meant by the word "manufactured". Manufactured could mean only the frame of the bicycle was manufactured, or some other component/components were manufactured, or that the bicycle was assembled from other manufactures frames and components.

It is also unclear to me what "reportedly" is supposed to mean. Something concrete or something purposefully ambiguous.

The original idea that "reportedly H. Tano and Company manufactured bicycles" has morphed into "H. Tano and Company manufactured bicycles". The caveat "reportedly" has been removed and this new version of what kind of a company H. Tano and Company was now exists.

The removal of the caveat "reportedly" has gone unnoticed or unchallenged, even by the originator of the first statement where "reportedly" is used.

The idea that is repeated is "H. Tano and company manufactured bicycles".

I have several references to H. Tano and Company as a Japanese export company that supplied bicycles.

The first place that I found the reference to "Tano" as a "manufacturer" is in this post from February of 2006 by bikeforums.net member @T-Mar:

https://www.bikeforums.net/2208689-post62.html




I have not seen where T-Mar reveals the source that reported Tano as a manufacturer.

Two bikeforum.net members have questioned T-Mar about his reportedly Tano assertion, once in May 2017 by member @msl109 and once in August 2019 by member @madpogue.

member mls109 thread with question and T-Mar's response:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...an-frames.html




Member madpogue question in the Centurion Serial Number Database thread:

https://www.bikeforums.net/21094234-post2248.html



Member T-Mar's response:

https://www.bikeforums.net/21151985-post2255.html




In neither response does member T-Mar say the source of his 2006 assertion of "reportedly Tano".

In both responses member T-Mar cites an article in 2011 publication of the Korn Ferry Institute
written by Lawrence M. Fisher entitled "Georgena Terry's Long-Distance Ride".
(Note: In both responses member T-Mar spelt Georgena incorrectly.)

In the second response member T-Mar also adds a new assertion:



From what I have seen this assertion is true. Other sources do credit H. Tano and Company with suppling bicycles to Western States Imports(WSI) or their predecessor organization.

These sources do not say that H. Tano and Company manufactered the bicycles or any part of the bicycles.

Is the Korn Ferry Institute article a credible confirmation?
What is the Korn Ferry Institute?





- - - -


And remember class, there will be a test on all this material on the third Thursday of January.
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Then we created Ironmaidens because, basically, they were all hot and we were not.
As you can see, we are arbitrary. We really don't care. We ride the bikes.
Arbitrary is the only logic these days. Like Portland.
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Old 12-28-20, 05:34 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Fahrenheit531 View Post
What's amazing to me is the level of effort put into refuting what may be the most obscure little serial number side-note ever posited.

That said, being amazed is fun.

Do please continue.
Agreed!

Terribly entertaining content
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Old 12-28-20, 05:37 PM
  #49  
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I think he just dislikes Canada.
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Old 12-28-20, 05:46 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
I'd advise putting down the shovel.
F that - keep diggin', OP! I'm not learning anything but the entertainment value is akin to watching a train go off a high trestle, so there's that. Plus the weather isn't currently conducive to riding a bicycle in relative comfort.

On the edge of my seat here

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