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Orthodoxy Part 1

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Orthodoxy Part 1

Old 01-05-21, 07:47 PM
  #151  
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Hmm, here’s a BF post that tips over the proverbial apple cart:

https://www.bikeforums.net/21205571-post30.html

That BFer reports picking up an H. Tano-built frame directly from H. Tano in Kobe!

And then there’s this H. Tano brochure on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-ORI....m46890.l49292

Hmm.

Last edited by nlerner; 01-05-21 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 01-05-21, 08:00 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by texaspandj View Post
cheers.
Thanks hummer.
+1
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Old 01-05-21, 08:02 PM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
The serious posts in this thread read like the parts of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance that I skipped.

Most of the rest remind me of Monty Python sketches.
You would do well to read the whole thing. It took me 30 years, but I'm glad I stuck it out.
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Old 01-05-21, 08:13 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by seedsbelize View Post
You would do well to read the whole thing. It took me 30 years, but I'm glad I stuck it out.
(I actually have. Twice. Lila too.)

But there's no humor in that, and this orthodoxy thread definitely reminded me of Zen themes.
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Old 01-05-21, 08:38 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by jonwvara View Post
This thread is where fun goes to die. I'm out of here--anyone can have my place.
I was scheduled to have a cavity in an upper left molar filled back in April. The pandemic put the kibosh on that. My dentist still isn't accepting new appointments. Now the tooth hurts when I bite on it in a certain way. I know I shouldn't, but I bite on it experimentally several times a day, just to see how it's doing.

God help me, I've been doing the same thing with this thread, despite my best efforts not to.

But we're done now, right? Can we tow the hulk of this thread out to sea and sink it with naval gunfire?
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Old 01-05-21, 11:28 PM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
Hmm, here’s a BF post that tips over the proverbial apple cart:

https://www.bikeforums.net/21205571-post30.html

That BFer reports picking up an H. Tano-built frame directly from H. Tano in Kobe!

And then there’s this H. Tano brochure on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-ORI....m46890.l49292

Hmm.
^
In five paragraphs, one fellow Googling the forum and searching eBay manages to present more concrete fact to this thread than the OP has in an entire thesis.

The serial number on that frame would be very interesting to see, indeed.

-Kurt
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Old 01-06-21, 05:31 AM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
Hmm, here’s a BF post that tips over the proverbial apple cart:

https://www.bikeforums.net/21205571-post30.html

That BFer reports picking up an H. Tano-built frame directly from H. Tano in Kobe!

And then there’s this H. Tano brochure on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-ORI....m46890.l49292

Hmm.
Neal, I read your post late last night and headed to bed. Your information haunted my thoughts and kept me awake. Mostly it was the picture of brodycycle 's all white, nearly devoid of decals,Tano (Centurian?)!


What in your post plagued me and kept me from blissful slumber, you ask?

You brought this whole C&V Orthodoxy (theological, sic.) discussion back full circle to my post #12 back on page 1 of this mind numbing and often frustrating thread.

Orthodoxy in my line of work is determined by Creeds and what we Presbyterians call "Confessions of Faith" (not to be confused with "confession of sin" done in the presence of a priest).

One of the original Creeds, The Nicene, in part, was written to refute and make unorthodox, the Gnostic interpretation of Jesus. Gnosticism stated Jesus was never human flesh and blood. Instead, he was a spiritual (or ghostly) entity which only gave the illusion of being human. The Gnostic reasoning for their deduction was based on their flawed human logic that a perfect God would never be manifested in an imperfect human body (please excuse this oversimplification, but I want to keep this brief).

The early church leaders turned to the Gospels in the Bible to refute the Gnostic philosophy, wrote their Creed, thus removing Gnosticism from the orthodox church.

Is the picture of brodycycle's ghostly white, Tano made, Centurian replacement frameset, a Gnostic illusion? Is it possible that it only appears to be a Tano manufactered bicycle, and in reality, on some higher level of existence, it is something altogether different? Is there a Creed (i.e. an official Serial Number guide printed by the manufacturer) that we can consult? Please answer since I cannot endure another sleepless night!
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Old 01-06-21, 05:34 AM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
Hmm, here’s a BF post that tips over the proverbial apple cart:

https://www.bikeforums.net/21205571-post30.html

That BFer reports picking up an H. Tano-built frame directly from H. Tano in Kobe!

And then there’s this H. Tano brochure on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-ORI....m46890.l49292

Hmm.
You've opened the proverbial Bento Box with this one.
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Old 01-06-21, 07:23 AM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
You've opened the proverbial Bento Box with this one.
Mmm, lunch.
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Old 01-06-21, 10:10 AM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
Well, I did learn that a beer can makes excellent shim material.
I learned from a mechanic that if the beer can shim is too thick you can hammer it to the needed thickness.
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Old 01-06-21, 11:05 AM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by Reynolds View Post
I learned from a mechanic that if the beer can shim is too thick you can hammer it to the needed thickness.
Or just use aluminum foil in however many layers are necessary.
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Old 01-06-21, 11:27 AM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by Reynolds View Post
I learned from a mechanic that if the beer can shim is too thick you can hammer it to the needed thickness.
Hammer the shim or the mechanic? Presumably the beer can had already been emptied.
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Old 01-06-21, 11:33 AM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by panzerwagon View Post
Hammer the shim or the mechanic? Presumably the beer can had already been emptied.
Most likely a pile in the corner for future shim stock.
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Old 01-06-21, 12:47 PM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
Hmm, here’s a BF post that tips over the proverbial apple cart:

https://www.bikeforums.net/21205571-post30.html

That BFer reports picking up an H. Tano-built frame directly from H. Tano in Kobe!

And then there’s this H. Tano brochure on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-ORI....m46890.l49292

Hmm.
Very good. You have done some actual research.

I have seen the pictures of this bicycle before.

Yes, the person that made the post said the bicycle is Tano.
I have seen nothing on the bicycle that indicates H. Tano and Company, but maybe I missed something.
How have you verified that the bicycle frame was manufactured by H. Tano and Company?
The bicycle may have been assembled by H. Tano and Company.
There are no pictures of the serial number which would be helpful with verification.
There are too many unanswered questions about this bicycle for it to be considered definitive proof of H. Tano and Company as a manufacturer.


I have not seen this brochure before. The seller is in Argentina.

South America is one place that I did not look for H. Tano and Company information, but I should have.

It would be nice to know what year the brochure is from.


Mr. Tatsuzo Ueda of Kansai University in Osaka Japan wrote a paper entitled "The Development of the bicycle industry in Japan After World War II", published in 1981. In this paper he shows that in 1957 the three geographic regions that received the most exports of Japanese bicycles and parts were: Southeast Asia, Africa, and Latin America. So, it is not surprising to see this brochure in Argentina. H. Tano and Company specialized in exporting bicycles and South America was a place that was accepting Japanese bicycles and parts.

However the brochure does not say who assembled or manufactured the bicycles.

C. Itoh and Company were also a Japanese trading company that exported bicycles. C. Itoh and Company exported many bicycles with their name on the marquee.

Did C. Itoh ever manufacture bicycle frames?

This H. Tano and Company brochure from Argentina is very interesting, but it is not proof that the Japanese exporter H. Tano and Company manufactured bicycles.

Last edited by Hummer; 01-06-21 at 12:53 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-06-21, 01:19 PM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
The H. Tano Co was a major exporter of bicycles, parts and accessories.
....
This is an advertisement for the H. Tano Co that appeared in the 1952 edition of the Japan Bicycle Guide on page 213. [Item# H.Tano Shokai]
https://www.proteanpaper.com/scart_r...00000000000418
Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
There are too many unanswered questions about this bicycle for it to be considered definitive proof of H. Tano and Company as a manufacturer.
So why do you think they advertise themselves as "Exporters and Manufacturers of Bicycles, Parts and Accessories" in their actual advert from 1952?
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Old 01-06-21, 01:27 PM
  #166  
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Isn't there a little irony (in the colloquial mis-used sense of the word) that John Lydon (Johnny Rotten) said; "I've turned arrogance into an artform, where it's so absurd that it becomes comedy." (?)

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Old 01-06-21, 03:15 PM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
Very good. You have done some actual research.
We're so glad you approve.

Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
Yes, the person that made the post said the bicycle is Tano.
I have seen nothing on the bicycle that indicates H. Tano and Company, but maybe I missed something.
Perhaps this?

Originally Posted by brodycycle View Post
I owned a H. Tano framed Centurion bike I bought in Colorado Springs in 1980. I had an accident that destroyed the frame. When cleaning out old owners manuals I found the Centurion manual and it listed H. Tano in Kobe Japan as the frame maker. Since I was in Korea at the time, I wrote to H. Tano at the address and they told me I could have the frame made to my specifications based on the Centurion Semi Pro. Long story short, I went to Kobe Japan and got the frame.
Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
How have you verified that the bicycle frame was manufactured by H. Tano and Company? The bicycle may have been assembled by H. Tano and Company.
While one could argue there's a slight possibility that H. Tano was such a large exporter that they could do badge engineering on another supplier's frame, there's no way to prove this otherwise than to ask someone who worked at H. Tano for the answer. For this level of accuracy, marketing documents and/or owners manuals won't cut it, and government documents regarding equipment manufacturer will only go so far.

Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
There are no pictures of the serial number which would be helpful with verification.
There are too many unanswered questions about this bicycle for it to be considered definitive proof of H. Tano and Company as a manufacturer.
Ask the owner. If you're so big on research, how about doing a bit yourself?

Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
I have not seen this brochure before. The seller is in Argentina.

South America is one place that I did not look for H. Tano and Company information, but I should have.
Any country where bicycles are extremely popular and not marketed as they are in consumer cultures like Europe or the US are good places to search. Information could come from anywhere. For that matter, there's nothing to conclusively prove that brochure was made for the Latin American market either.

Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
This H. Tano and Company brochure from Argentina is very interesting, but it is not proof that the Japanese exporter H. Tano and Company manufactured bicycles.
*ahem*

Originally Posted by panzerwagon View Post
So why do you think they advertise themselves as "Exporters and Manufacturers of Bicycles, Parts and Accessories" in their actual advert from 1952?
@panzerwagon is quoting your own post that quotes H. Tano's advertisement.

Have you read and understood your own research?
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Old 01-06-21, 04:19 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by jonwvara View Post
I was scheduled to have a cavity in an upper left molar filled back in April. The pandemic put the kibosh on that. My dentist still isn't accepting new appointments. Now the tooth hurts when I bite on it in a certain way. I know I shouldn't, but I bite on it experimentally several times a day, just to see how it's doing.

God help me, I've been doing the same thing with this thread, despite my best efforts not to.

But we're done now, right? Can we tow the hulk of this thread out to sea and sink it with naval gunfire?
Sinking a ship with gunfire is quite difficult, unless a shell finds its way to a magazine (as with HMS Hood 1941) or starts a fire that does (as with several ships at Jutland.). Failing that, can be done but you have to work at it. Torpedos work better, faster, easier fire control. Point and shoot. The incompressibility of water does the rest. Dastardly, ungentlemanly little buggers they are.
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Old 01-06-21, 04:23 PM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by Hummer View Post
Very good. You have done some actual research.

I have seen the pictures of this bicycle before.

Yes, the person that made the post said the bicycle is Tano.
I have seen nothing on the bicycle that indicates H. Tano and Company, but maybe I missed something.
How have you verified that the bicycle frame was manufactured by H. Tano and Company?
The bicycle may have been assembled by H. Tano and Company.
There are no pictures of the serial number which would be helpful with verification.
There are too many unanswered questions about this bicycle for it to be considered definitive proof of H. Tano and Company as a manufacturer.
With all due respect, what you call "research," I call a 5-minute Google search. Really, it wasn't difficult to find those two artifacts, and once finding them, I did not look for more.

All effective arguments need to have a sense of exigency, an answer to the "so-what?" question. I have yet to see any reason why anyone should care whether or not H. Tano manufactured bicycle frames.

All those making effective arguments also need to establish ethos or the credibility/character of the one making the argument. My assessment (not that you asked for it, but this is the Internet, after all) is that you have not succeeded with this component either.
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Old 01-06-21, 05:37 PM
  #170  
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Originally Posted by conspiratemus1 View Post
Sinking a ship with gunfire is quite difficult, unless a shell finds its way to a magazine (as with HMS Hood 1941) or starts a fire that does (as with several ships at Jutland.). Failing that, can be done but you have to work at it. Torpedos work better, faster, easier fire control. Point and shoot. The incompressibility of water does the rest. Dastardly, ungentlemanly little buggers they are.
Sure, if torpedoes would work better, let's use those.
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Old 01-06-21, 06:28 PM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
All effective arguments need to have a sense of exigency, an answer to the "so-what?" question. I have yet to see any reason why anyone should care whether or not H. Tano manufactured bicycle frames.
I thought of that, as I expect most folks on this thread.

But that's not really a good reason whatsoever. Obviously Hummer cares, and if it floats their boat, why do you care? For example, you may have seen my latest quest to determine the evolution of Campagnolo cambio corsa dropouts. I have seen an illustration of 12 teeth and have seen examples of 13, 14, 15, 17 and 19 teeth with varying stampings, eyelets and other features. Why? Why the **** not? A quest to find utterly irrelevant information is the definition of a historian.

I'm interested and if you do not, why would you care enough to reply?
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Old 01-06-21, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by conspiratemus1 View Post
Sinking a ship with gunfire is quite difficult, unless a shell finds its way to a magazine (as with HMS Hood 1941) or starts a fire that does (as with several ships at Jutland.). Failing that, can be done but you have to work at it. Torpedos work better, faster, easier fire control. Point and shoot. The incompressibility of water does the rest. Dastardly, ungentlemanly little buggers they are.
You've got live fish in those tubes, haven't you?


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Old 01-06-21, 07:05 PM
  #173  
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Old 01-06-21, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
I thought of that, as I expect most folks on this thread.

But that's not really a good reason whatsoever. Obviously Hummer cares, and if it floats their boat, why do you care? For example, you may have seen my latest quest to determine the evolution of Campagnolo cambio corsa dropouts. I have seen an illustration of 12 teeth and have seen examples of 13, 14, 15, 17 and 19 teeth with varying stampings, eyelets and other features. Why? Why the **** not? A quest to find utterly irrelevant information is the definition of a historian.

I'm interested and if you do not, why would you care enough to reply?
Well, I don't care--but I responded for the same reason I spend any time on this site when I should probably be trying to make progress on my to-do list: distraction, entertainment, social engagement, sharing and learning. Making sound arguments is more aligned with my line of work than most other topics that come up on this site, so I couldn't help myself (though I tried, I swear!).
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Old 01-06-21, 07:40 PM
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You could literally put any Garfield Minus Garfield comic in this thread and it would be 100% appropriate no matter where you put it.

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