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Old 11-30-20, 09:39 PM
  #5826  
carleton
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Further...

Sprint performance is the combination of several factors:

- Strength: How much weight you can move.
- Power: How quickly can you move an amount of weight (aka: force)
- Aerobic Capacity / Endurance: How well can you recover between efforts (recovery speed and recovery amount)
- Top Speed: Max velocity that you can sustain even if a motorbike gets you up to speed.

Having 1 of these isn't good-enough when your opponents have 2 of them.
Having 2 of these isn't good-enough when your opponents have 3 of them.
Having 3 of these isn't good-enough when your opponents have all 4 of them.

This doesn't really matter when you are at the local level. You can have 1 or 2 of these and still be quite successful. But, when competing at the national or international level (even for Juniors or Masters), if you don't have all 4, you won't be on the podium...because 3 others will.

The skill in Programming is understanding that:

- All 4 components take a certain amount of time to train
- All 4 components have a finite period of effectiveness once fully trained.
- It is possible, but not optimal, for an athlete to train all 4 at the same time.

Aside:
There are micro, meso, and macro time scales for an athlete that has 1 big event a year.

- Micro: Daily/weekly training regimen.
- Meso: Monthly/Quarterly training regimen.
- Macro: Annual training regimen (for year over year growth gains over an athlete's career)

Main point again:

In order for all 4 component systems to be at peak levels for the big annual event (nationals, worlds, etc...) one must understand how long it takes to train that component and how long that training effect will be available.

Generally speaking,

- Strength takes the longest to make and it's the one that takes the longest to decay. Strength can take years to build over several cycles. This is also why there exists the concept of "old man strength". It's real.
- Power is built upon strength. "If you can't lift X lb slowly, you'll never be able to lift X lbs quickly. First you must be strong enough to lift X lbs then more than X lbs.". Power fades faster than strength but not nearly as fast as the others.
- Endurance is trained over the course of months and fades within months.
- Top speed can be trained within days/weeks but also fades within days/weeks.


So, it makes no sense to train top speed behind a motorbike in month 1 of a 12 month program. It's also just as senseless to start weight training the month of your big event.

In an effort to use your time wisely, you should train Strength, then Power, then Endurance, then Top Speed will creating gains in each and doing your best to maintain them in a growing crescendo that's your Peak for the big race.

Note: There are some notable exceptions to that rule that are very effective. But, that is the general rule nonetheless, and the exceptions are...well...the exceptions.

A good read on the subject is Periodization Training for Sports by Tudor O. Bompa

https://www.amazon.com/Periodization...s=books&sr=1-1
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Old 11-30-20, 09:47 PM
  #5827  
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Originally Posted by WulfKeeper View Post
Thanks Carleton, so option 2. That makes the most sense. Much appreciated.

Re strength, I've got good results following hypertrophy (build muscle) and strength (what to do with it) path. Highly recommended. Google it Fitsra has a bit of the theory behind it on their web site (although there's a lot of places pushing that approach).
There is active debate about hypertrophy ("beach muscles) vs lean muscle and strength performance in general. Just know these things:

- Unless the strength training program is written for track sprinting...it's not written for track sprinting. Meaning that the authors assume that you are only doing the things outlined in their program. And their programs don't take into account the power or endurance work that you are doing on the bike.
- Because a track sprinter spends a significant amount of time doing strength work on the bike, there will always be a hypertrophic effect in your the program. So, doing squats with 20 reps doesn't do much more than the standing start session does. So, why bother? Spend that time doing 3x5 or 5x5 to gain peak strength.
- Don't sleep on leg presses.
- You can also strength train for track sprinting 100% on the bike and spin bike.

Last edited by carleton; 11-30-20 at 11:10 PM. Reason: "account" not "effect"
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Old 11-30-20, 11:07 PM
  #5828  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
There is active debate about hypertrophy ("beach muscles) vs lean muscle and strength performance in general. Just know these things:

- Unless the strength training program is written for track sprinting...it's not written for track sprinting. Meaning that the authors assume that you are only doing the things outlined in their program. And their programs don't take into effect the power or endurance work that you are doing on the bike.
- Because a track sprinter spends a significant amount of time doing strength work on the bike, there will always be a hypertrophic effect in your the program. So, doing squats with 20 reps doesn't do much more than the standing start session does. So, why bother? Spend that time doing 3x5 or 5x5 to gain peak strength.
- Don't sleep on leg presses.
- You can also strength train for track sprinting 100% on the bike and spin bike.
Appreciate the further info and input Carleton. Cheers.
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Old 11-30-20, 11:20 PM
  #5829  
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Originally Posted by WulfKeeper View Post
Appreciate the further info and input Carleton. Cheers.
No problem.

I trained entire seasons under these types of programs:

- 100% on the track
- Gym + track + little road
- Heavy gym + little track
- Spin bike + little track ("doing squats on the bike"). This is pretty much a high-rep hypertrophy program. My legs were "dummy thicc"...as the kids would say.

And they all worked. No one program proved to make me significantly faster than the others. The gains that I experienced where likely more due to year over year training and experience.

The one that's best is the one that suits your schedule, work, family, and lifestyle. If you are really strapped for time due to work/family/commute/life, a top quality spin bike is sufficient. Just carve out about 1hr/day 5-6 days/week and find a structured program. Remember: Your legs don't know if you are inside, outside, in the gym, on the road, or on the velodrome. They just know you need them to be stronger when you stimulate them.
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Old 12-01-20, 10:26 AM
  #5830  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Many sprinters will record PBs the week of Nationals only to fall flat when they race at home a two weeks later, maybe even logging season-low numbers. That's normal.
So I've given this very scenario some thought (as 55-59 Masters Sprinter), given the 2021 race schedules for Nationals vs Worlds. Nats are Sep 14-19 while Worlds are essentially less than two weeks later, Oct 2-9. How would one maintain optimal form for both, or does it make more sense to focus on just one of the two?
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Old 12-01-20, 11:27 PM
  #5831  
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Originally Posted by Dfarlow View Post
So I've given this very scenario some thought (as 55-59 Masters Sprinter), given the 2021 race schedules for Nationals vs Worlds. Nats are Sep 14-19 while Worlds are essentially less than two weeks later, Oct 2-9. How would one maintain optimal form for both, or does it make more sense to focus on just one of the two?
You could do like the British did leading up to the London Olympics by "training through" the World Championships. Basically, include Nationals in the big crescendo of training volume and intensity before you start your taper, and endure the sub-optimal results which may not be too bad. If you do this long enough, you pretty much know what times you will run in comp. Very few experienced racers are truly surprised by good performances at big events.

Basically, use Nationals as a dry run for Worlds to test the big things like:
- Performing under pressure.
- Experimenting with gears for the events.
- Strategies
- Warming up with ZERO track time. 100% on rollers or a trainer.

And small things like:
- Traveling with your gear.
- What to pack and leave at home.
- What you should have packed.
- Getting sleep the night before your big day.
- Setting up and maintaining your infield camp.
- Eating while away from home.
- Hotel routines
- What to do when you have an X hr break between heats/events (Go back to the hotel? Nap in the infield?)

Nationals and/or Worlds can be mentally fatiguing for all of those things listed above that most people never deal with when training and racing at their home track. Any combination of those can throw you off of your game. And when winners are decided by less than a second at the National or World level, those things are very important.

That being said, you could also skip Nationals and spend that time and money showing up significantly early at Worlds to get "the lay of the land" before everyone else and be in a good spot as well.
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Old 12-02-20, 08:35 AM
  #5832  
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Originally Posted by Dfarlow View Post
So I've given this very scenario some thought (as 55-59 Masters Sprinter), given the 2021 race schedules for Nationals vs Worlds. Nats are Sep 14-19 while Worlds are essentially less than two weeks later, Oct 2-9. How would one maintain optimal form for both, or does it make more sense to focus on just one of the two?
Don't you have a coach to worry about that for you?
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Old 12-02-20, 09:28 AM
  #5833  
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Ha, I did. But had to part ways due to finances (lost my job due to Covid, still unemployed). May have to take out a loan to travel to any big events next year. So now I'm trying to live and train vicariously through you guys and your coaches. More questions to come....
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Old 12-03-20, 11:47 PM
  #5834  
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Re Jetblack R1 rollers, can you guys have a listen to this noise?.. At low speeds it OK (bearable with noise), however at higher speeds the rollers rattle. The bike feels a bit jerky on each revolution and is not as smooth as what I would have expected.. Is this a setup issue? Or possibly a warranty issue? I haven't used rollers before so have nothing to compare it to!.... Tires are at 110psi.
Note I am aware of the chainline noise (you can hear it as a reference at the start). The noise that is concerning me is the rattling noise of the rollers at higher speed. The carbon wheels are not helping with noise I know!



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Old 12-04-20, 04:07 AM
  #5835  
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My Kreitlers sounded similar. I changed the bearings in the drums and all is well again. It cost about $30 and took about an hour.
How old are your rollers?
PI
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Old 12-04-20, 11:51 PM
  #5836  
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Originally Posted by 1incpa View Post
My Kreitlers sounded similar. I changed the bearings in the drums and all is well again. It cost about $30 and took about an hour.
How old are your rollers?
PI
the rollers are brand new which is why I was leaning towards a warranty issue.
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Old 12-05-20, 12:11 PM
  #5837  
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Yea, you're probably on the right track. My Kreitlers were probably 25 years old when they sounded like that.
Definitely a warranty issue.
PI
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Old 12-06-20, 12:23 PM
  #5838  
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My guess would be the bearings, too.

I'd imagine that budget rollers would cut corners on the quality of bearings.
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Old 12-10-20, 07:46 PM
  #5839  
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Heya, have a couple questions.

There anyone do gym training (ah all track cyclist do train it anyway, I guess) find that dropping in gym performance the day after training cycling? especially lower body training such squats. I don't know, I go cycling training but its not that crazy volume, just 20-30 mins session. Next day I go to gym and bad day happens. I try to find answer for myself, today is bad day so..... kinda freak and frustrating. Try to chill out right now.

Another question. Did anyone have Dolan PreCursa? what is maximum size of chainring it will take? I borrow 56 from friend and its fitted. I look at the clearance, its may take 57 or 58 at max (with very tight clearance to chainstay). I wonder if I can take it to 60 so ..... anyone could give answer?

Thanks in advanced.
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Old 12-11-20, 01:01 AM
  #5840  
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Originally Posted by Altimis View Post
Heya, have a couple questions.

There anyone do gym training (ah all track cyclist do train it anyway, I guess) find that dropping in gym performance the day after training cycling? especially lower body training such squats. I don't know, I go cycling training but its not that crazy volume, just 20-30 mins session. Next day I go to gym and bad day happens. I try to find answer for myself, today is bad day so..... kinda freak and frustrating. Try to chill out right now.
...........................
I train on my bike and train at the gym.. I make sure to warm up before exercise then eat protein following exercise. Works for me.
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Old 12-11-20, 01:33 AM
  #5841  
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Originally Posted by Altimis View Post
Heya, have a couple questions.

There anyone do gym training (ah all track cyclist do train it anyway, I guess) find that dropping in gym performance the day after training cycling? especially lower body training such squats. I don't know, I go cycling training but its not that crazy volume, just 20-30 mins session. Next day I go to gym and bad day happens. I try to find answer for myself, today is bad day so..... kinda freak and frustrating. Try to chill out right now.

Another question. Did anyone have Dolan PreCursa? what is maximum size of chainring it will take? I borrow 56 from friend and its fitted. I look at the clearance, its may take 57 or 58 at max (with very tight clearance to chainstay). I wonder if I can take it to 60 so ..... anyone could give answer?

Thanks in advanced.
You should be allowing your body to recover properly. Hitting a bike workout one day and a lower body gym session the next only gives your body 24hrs to recover. You should be aiming to give muscle groups more like 48hr. If you can, you'd be better to do the bike and gym on the same day with the bike first, and ideally as a warmup to the gym. Do some sort of recovery work on the next day and smash yourself 2 days later again
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Old 12-11-20, 06:19 AM
  #5842  
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Yeah, generally if you have a life and a job, you need a day off after a heavy session, be it bike or gym, before you can train intensely again. This means you may only have a possibility of three or four serious training days in a week, but plenty of people have made that work, myself included. If you are independently wealthy or have some ideal work/life schedule, you can train one in the morning and the other in the afternoon, THEN take a day off. But basically consecutive days of smashing yourself is counterproductive, i.e., you will get slower, and/or injure yourself.
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Old 12-11-20, 02:02 PM
  #5843  
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It's possible to train gym and road work on consecutive days, but you have to know that whatever happens on the second day will be sub-par because (as others have stated) you aren't fully recovered.

It's easier to see this effect in the gym because everything is measured precisely (sets, reps, weight on the bar, etc...) and when we fail a set that we should hit, it's noteworthy in the brain. You may not notice your HR being 5bpm higher, your cadence 5rpm slower, or your speed 2mph slower on a road ride the day after the gym.

It's best to consider the latter session to be "conditioning" or supplemental work and not for striving to reach measured goals.

The same thing happens when elites or elite-level masters train two-a-days. The morning session is good and the afternoon numbers are bad...even if the conditioning effect is great.
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Old 12-12-20, 06:35 PM
  #5844  
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Will EAI cogs fit on Mavic ellipse track hubs ? I know lockring will need italian thread, but cog will be OK?...
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Old 12-14-20, 11:05 AM
  #5845  
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Originally Posted by sixty2strat View Post
Will EAI cogs fit on Mavic ellipse track hubs ? I know lockring will need italian thread, but cog will be OK?...
The cogs will fit fine.
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Old 01-09-21, 09:45 AM
  #5846  
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Anyone know of any Italian thread Lockrings that have clearance for a 12 tooth cog?
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Old 01-10-21, 05:07 AM
  #5847  
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Phil Wood Classic, in the specs they go down to 12. I don't think the PW Pro locking is stepped, so won't take a 12.
https://www.retro-gression.com/produ...track-lockring
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Old 01-10-21, 05:27 AM
  #5848  
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Originally Posted by Minion1 View Post
Phil Wood Classic, in the specs they go down to 12. I don't think the PW Pro locking is stepped, so won't take a 12.
thanks wasn’t aware that these were Italian thread
👍
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Old 01-10-21, 09:50 PM
  #5849  
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Hi Carleton,

I'm interested in building a "true" track frame and was wondering if you could provide some insight. I currently have an Engine 11 Crit D but I am in the process of building a Dolan Pre Cursa. Would you mind posting your recommendations for frames in the $750 range and also the $1200 range?
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Old 01-11-21, 09:39 AM
  #5850  
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Originally Posted by txela View Post
Hi Carleton,

I'm interested in building a "true" track frame and was wondering if you could provide some insight. I currently have an Engine 11 Crit D but I am in the process of building a Dolan Pre Cursa. Would you mind posting your recommendations for frames in the $750 range and also the $1200 range?
Hi, txela,

I'm not much into personal shopping nor am I up on current offerings. But, there is a thread that just for this purpose. Maybe read through it to see what's important (and not) and get feedback on older stuff.

https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cyc...ete-bikes.html

Feel free to bump that thread with fresh questions. That's reasonable as offerings change every year.

Know that once you get to a certain level of quality and angles on a frame, they don't need to be modern in order to perform well...or more precisely, hold you back. A frame cannot make anyone faster...none of them can do that. The entire purpose of hunting for the best frame for you is to get the one that lets you express your full athletic potential.
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