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Front derailleur spacing problems

Old 09-01-19, 01:53 PM
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G_I_B_B_O_N
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Front derailleur spacing problems

I just picked up a used Surly Long Haul Trucker and I'm having issues with my front derailleur. It will not move outward far enough to clear the large chainring (triple). It will shift into the largest chainring, but there will be a lot of chainrub when it's on the largest in the front and smallest in the back. The second smallest in the back just makes it with occasional rub on the front derailleur. I took it to my LBS and the mechanic's opinion was that the bottom bracket must be too long. I've been searching online but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of manuals on my crankset and bottom bracket.

Here's what I'm running:
Crankset: Shimano M530 triple
Derailleur: Shimano Deore triple of some kind
Bottom Bracket: BB-ES71 113mm spindle length
Cassette: Shimano 11-34

My mechanic recommended that if I need to change the bottom bracket, I might want to switch my crankset to something a bit more current as I'm planning on touring with the bike and Octalink bottom brackets are not readily available in shops these days. Also, I'm running a 48-36-26 on the front and I realized while riding it yesterday that 26 in the back might not be enough under load and going through hills. Shimano had a 44-32-22 setup for this which sounds good, but then I'm replacing even more parts on an outdated crankset.

If it turns out a better idea to just swap cranksets, I'm open to suggestions. In that case I'd be looking for something durable but economical. I would be open to a double in the front as well but the range would have to be similar to the 44-32-22 setup.

Thanks for the help!
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Old 09-01-19, 04:32 PM
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Just to be sure-if you loosen the limit screw as much as possible and move the derailleur by hand (or by pulling the cable with your hand rather than the shift lever) it still won’t go far enough?
I’m a bit surprised, as plenty of older MTBs have 28/38/48 triples, and usually on BB spindles linger than 113, so a Deore triple derailleur should work fine.
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Old 09-01-19, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by AeroGut
Just to be sure-if you loosen the limit screw as much as possible and move the derailleur by hand (or by pulling the cable with your hand rather than the shift lever) it still won’t go far enough?
I’m a bit surprised, as plenty of older MTBs have 28/38/48 triples, and usually on BB spindles linger than 113, so a Deore triple derailleur should work fine.
Also, ensure that the derailleur cage is not bent and is properly parallel with the chain rings; any yaw will reduce the chain clearance.
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Old 09-01-19, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by AeroGut
Just to be sure-if you loosen the limit screw as much as possible and move the derailleur by hand (or by pulling the cable with your hand rather than the shift lever) it still won’t go far enough?
I’m a bit surprised, as plenty of older MTBs have 28/38/48 triples, and usually on BB spindles linger than 113, so a Deore triple derailleur should work fine.
Yeah, initially when I noticed the problem I loosened the limit screws all the way and manually tested the throw by hand. I thought I was doing something wrong, but my LBS mechanic confirmed it. I also thought I must be doing something wrong because 113mm is definitely on the small side for triples. It's been a pain to diagnose what's wrong.

Originally Posted by dsbrantjr
Also, ensure that the derailleur cage is not bent and is properly parallel with the chain rings; any yaw will reduce the chain clearance.
I gave this a quick check before, but just gave it a more thorough look. No signs of bending. The cage is nice and straight.

I was getting desperate and thinking of throwing the BB from my road double in to see if it would work (against what Shimano recommends) but it's octalink v1 not v2. Don't have anything shorter to test with.

I'm on the fence about how to deal with it. If it's just a shorter BB (not sure how it could be) or a new FD, not a big deal, but I've learned that throwing money at old parts to keep them going eventually starts becoming more expensive than a new crankset/BB/FD. As I said I'm probably going to want to swap my chainrings eventually to to have a smaller granny.
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Old 09-01-19, 08:56 PM
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If it is a Shimano FD than the number is on the inside of the inner cage. Without that, its hard to diagnose if its the derailleur or something else. My recommendation is to turn the rear of the FD out a little so it doesn't rub when in the large/small combo, then see if it works okay in other combinations. There is some wiggle room in setting up triples. Sheldon Brown gave some ideas why you might not want the outer cage perfectly parallel with the chainrings.
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Old 09-01-19, 09:52 PM
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Post up a photo. I'm curious if someone put a way-too-wide BB spindle in it, putting the cranks too far outboard of the frame.

-Kurt
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Old 09-01-19, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by G_I_B_B_O_N
If it turns out a better idea to just swap cranksets, I'm open to suggestions. In that case I'd be looking for something durable but economical. I would be open to a double in the front as well but the range would have to be similar to the 44-32-22 setup.
I can't speak for durability yet...I've maybe just got 150 miles on mine, but I'm quite satisfied with my Alivio FC-T4060. It's a 44-32-22 9-speed triple. External bearing BB.

My front derailleur (probably about the same age as yours...it's M5-something...2006 era) is at the very limit of its travel when in the big ring. It took 2 or 3 tries to get it dialed in, but now that I have, it shifts sooooo much better than the stock OEM (non-Shimano) crankset, no matter how many times I tried to dial it in.
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Old 09-02-19, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84
If it is a Shimano FD than the number is on the inside of the inner cage. Without that, its hard to diagnose if its the derailleur or something else. My recommendation is to turn the rear of the FD out a little so it doesn't rub when in the large/small combo, then see if it works okay in other combinations. There is some wiggle room in setting up triples. Sheldon Brown gave some ideas why you might not want the outer cage perfectly parallel with the chainrings.
The model number is: FD-4503. Thanks for the tip on angling. I'll read through Sheldon's page on it and give it a try.

Originally Posted by cudak888
Post up a photo. I'm curious if someone put a way-too-wide BB spindle in it, putting the cranks too far outboard of the frame.

-Kurt
Took a couple quick pictures. Hopefully this helps. The contact with the chain isn't firm, but just enough that it's constant.





Originally Posted by MiPeGr
I can't speak for durability yet...I've maybe just got 150 miles on mine, but I'm quite satisfied with my Alivio FC-T4060. It's a 44-32-22 9-speed triple. External bearing BB.

My front derailleur (probably about the same age as yours...it's M5-something...2006 era) is at the very limit of its travel when in the big ring. It took 2 or 3 tries to get it dialed in, but now that I have, it shifts sooooo much better than the stock OEM (non-Shimano) crankset, no matter how many times I tried to dial it in.
Thanks for the suggestion. I was actually looking at the same crankset, but I've never heard of the Alivio series so I initially wrote it off as garbage. If it comes to swapping out the crankset I'll give this a serious look. I'm avoiding buying anything for now until I can figure out what the culprit is. How's the external BB? I only have experience with Octalink V1 and V2.
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Old 09-02-19, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by G_I_B_B_O_N
The model number is: FD-4503. Thanks for the tip on angling. I'll read through Sheldon's page on it and give it a try.

Took a couple quick pictures. Hopefully this helps. The contact with the chain isn't firm, but just enough that it's constant.
That Tiagra is usually paired with 52t outer rings, but it should handle the triple reasonably well.

However, as I suspected, that crankarm looks like it's sitting outboard a bit. While I'm not there to measure chainline, I'd guesstimate that it's about 4mm further out than it could be - meaning that the BB spindle is too long or the crank's chainring offset is just unsuitable for this particular frame.

Replacing the crank and BB together is probably the best course of action to take here (and make sure the mechanic understands that copying the BB width of the Octalink on it now is not correct). If you haven't already, give the gearing some thought.

One last thing: Even though external-bearing BBs are nice, they're not necessarily the first thing you'll find at a remote bike shop in an emergency. If you plan to do touring in remote areas where picking and choosing an LBS isn't an option, I'd recommend sticking with a simple JIS square taper BB spindle and crankarm. That's the most common crank you'll find at any bike shop - especially those way out in the middle of nowhere. You can even cannibalize a thrift store bike for a crank arm or a cup-and-cone BB in the absolute worst-case scenario. While I wouldn't expect a new crank to come to this, I have had two cranks bent into boomerangs after being hit (in one case, I was hit by another rider, so it's not just automobiles that pose an issue here).

-Kurt
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Old 09-02-19, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by G_I_B_B_O_N
The model number is: FD-4503. Thanks for the tip on angling. I'll read through Sheldon's page on it and give it a try. .

I have done a little research (partly to satisfy my curiosity) and this is what I have found. The Tiagra FD-4503 is designed for a 45mm chainline (per the service instructions at https://si.shimano.com/pFD-4503dfs/s...0A-001-ENG.pdf). The MTB FC-M530 crankset has a 50mm chainline using the recommended 113mm BB (per page 51 of the archived Shimano specifications at file:///C:/Users/eggma/Downloads/2006_SPECIFICATION.pdf). I believe the above 45 and 50mm chainlines are the standard Shimano specs for road and MTB triples, respectively.


Bottom line, your FD may just not be able to extend quite out far enough. Don't believe you can use a shorter BB; what I am seeing is 113 is the shortest V2 Octalink available and if you could find something shorter your frame might not have room for the cranskset to move inward anyway If you like the gearing then try to find a FD that would work with your shifters and crankset. I am real happy using older Shimano MTB FDs (FD-M650/M735/M900) that work great with friction shifting (and Campy brifters that have "microsteps" for the FD) but don't know if they would work with Shimano road brifters. Good luck.
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Old 09-02-19, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Even though external-bearing BBs are nice, they're not necessarily the first thing you'll find at a remote bike shop in an emergency. If you plan to do touring in remote areas where picking and choosing an LBS isn't an option, I'd recommend sticking with a simple JIS square taper BB spindle and crankarm. That's the most common crank you'll find at any bike shop - especially those way out in the middle of nowhere.
-Kurt
Thanks! As Eggman said in the above post, it's most likely the mismatch between my FD and crankset. I will definitely take your suggestions about square taper cranks into consideration though as I do plan on doing some touring and am not sure how out of the way I plan on going.

Originally Posted by Eggman84
I have done a little research (partly to satisfy my curiosity) and this is what I have found. The Tiagra FD-4503 is designed for a 45mm chainline (per the service instructions at https://si.shimano.com/pFD-4503dfs/s...0A-001-ENG.pdf). The MTB FC-M530 crankset has a 50mm chainline using the recommended 113mm BB (per page 51 of the archived Shimano specifications at file:///C:/Users/eggma/Downloads/2006_SPECIFICATION.pdf). I believe the above 45 and 50mm chainlines are the standard Shimano specs for road and MTB triples, respectively.


Bottom line, your FD may just not be able to extend quite out far enough. Don't believe you can use a shorter BB; what I am seeing is 113 is the shortest V2 Octalink available and if you could find something shorter your frame might not have room for the cranskset to move inward anyway If you like the gearing then try to find a FD that would work with your shifters and crankset. I am real happy using older Shimano MTB FDs (FD-M650/M735/M900) that work great with friction shifting (and Campy brifters that have "microsteps" for the FD) but don't know if they would work with Shimano road brifters. Good luck.
Thanks! Unfortunately the links you posted don't seem to work. This would make total sense as I was pretty sure I was using the minimum recommended BB length. As of now I'm unsure about the gearing. I suspect I need a smaller granny when fully loaded. I'm now looking into:

Outboard:
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/produ.../FC-T4060.html
Octalink:
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/produ.../FC-T4010.html
Square taper?
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/produ.../FC-T3010.html

As Cudak said above, the square taper might be the best option for touring. I'm just not sure if the Acera FC-T3010 are any good, or if they're even square taper. The on it's webpage the specs say it is but the image definitely looks like Octalink. Maybe they're just reusing imaging from an Octalink option they also sell.

The chainline on all of those crank options are also 50mm so it looks like I'd need a new FD no matter what I do. I guess I could upgrade the FD to a 50mm compatible one for now and change crankset when I've got a firmer idea of my needs. I'll look into the older Shimano FDs as you recommend for one that's 50mm compatible.
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Old 09-02-19, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by G_I_B_B_O_N
.... As of now I'm unsure about the gearing. I suspect I need a smaller granny when fully loaded. I'm now looking into:

Sorry about the links not working. I need to make sure they work before posting links in the future. As to your current crankset (FC-M530), it came in 2 configurations, 44-32-22T and 48T-36T-26T. You can't get any lower than 22T small chainring. If you have the "larger" configuration, you could change just the 26T inner with a 22T and not notice much if any difference, other than the lower gearing. These are standard 104/64 mm BCD 4 arm cranks so chainrings are still readily available (about $8 for an alloy 22T, $11 for a steel 22T). As to the rubbing in large large- other than annoying, how often are you in that combination? Could save a lot of money not buying anything if you realistically never use that combo (except downhill with a tail wind).
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Old 09-02-19, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84
Sorry about the links not working. I need to make sure they work before posting links in the future. As to your current crankset (FC-M530), it came in 2 configurations, 44-32-22T and 48T-36T-26T. You can't get any lower than 22T small chainring. If you have the "larger" configuration, you could change just the 26T inner with a 22T and not notice much if any difference, other than the lower gearing. These are standard 104/64 mm BCD 4 arm cranks so chainrings are still readily available (about $8 for an alloy 22T, $11 for a steel 22T). As to the rubbing in large large- other than annoying, how often are you in that combination? Could save a lot of money not buying anything if you realistically never use that combo (except downhill with a tail wind).
I have the 48-36-26T chainring. The rubbing would restrict me from only the two heaviest gear combinations. Admittedly they're not mandatory. I live in very hilly terrain and spend most my time climbing with equal amounts of downhill. It just means I'll spend a lot of that downhill time coasting. I was unaware I could change the granny gear only without throwing off my shifting. In that case I would definitely keep my crankset and just change the granny to 22T. I'm quite happy with the 36T middle. I think I'll look into the 22T chainring for now and pick up a more compatible FD when the opportunity presents itself.

As for the chainring, aluminium or steel? $3 difference is irrelevant price-wise. Any reason to go aluminium over steel besides a marginal amount of weight?
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Old 09-02-19, 10:02 PM
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You haven't said what shifters you are using. On Shimano road shifters, you have to peel back the rubber hood to find the number. On MTB shifters, I don't know where the number is. Barends, its on the right rubber shift lever. If we knew that I, or others, might be able to tell you what FD would work with a MTB triple crankset and your shifters. Really need both bits of info.


Something that just occurred to me is that the shape of the Tiagra FD-4503 is designed for road rings (its matching crankset the FC-4503 has 30-39-50T rings). Not a huge difference from the rings you are using but the "tail" of the derailleur is further away from the large chainring than intended, and would more likely lead to chain rub.
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Old 09-03-19, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84
You haven't said what shifters you are using. On Shimano road shifters, you have to peel back the rubber hood to find the number. On MTB shifters, I don't know where the number is. Barends, its on the right rubber shift lever. If we knew that I, or others, might be able to tell you what FD would work with a MTB triple crankset and your shifters. Really need both bits of info.


Something that just occurred to me is that the shape of the Tiagra FD-4503 is designed for road rings (its matching crankset the FC-4503 has 30-39-50T rings). Not a huge difference from the rings you are using but the "tail" of the derailleur is further away from the large chainring than intended, and would more likely lead to chain rub.
I have currently have Shimano 600 Ultegra downtube shifters on it. Both sides are being used as friction shifters. I believe these shifters are only compatible with 6-7-8 speed indexing, so I just use them in friction mode (front is friction only). I might eventually switch to bar ends but I'm in no rush. I also have Shimano 105 ST-5510 9-speed road shifters I could use if there was any major reason. I prefer the downtube ones as they're reliable and easy to maintain.

I would be happy to hear any recommendations for a replacement FD. I'm also planning on swapping my granny with a Shimano Deore M532 22t 64mm 9-Speed Chainring. That'll make my gearing 48-36-22t in the front and 11-34 in the back.
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Old 09-03-19, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by G_I_B_B_O_N
I have currently have Shimano 600 Ultegra downtube shifters on it. Both sides are being used as friction shifters. I believe these shifters are only compatible with 6-7-8 speed indexing, so I just use them in friction mode (front is friction only). I might eventually switch to bar ends but I'm in no rush. I also have Shimano 105 ST-5510 9-speed road shifters I could use if there was any major reason. I prefer the downtube ones as they're reliable and easy to maintain.

I would be happy to hear any recommendations for a replacement FD. I'm also planning on swapping my granny with a Shimano Deore M532 22t 64mm 9-Speed Chainring. That'll make my gearing 48-36-22t in the front and 11-34 in the back.
Using friction shifters really opens up your options. You are correct that in the indexed mode, the right shifter would only work with whatever number of rear cogs it was designed for (be that 7 or 8, 6 wasn't indexed yet). You could update your DT shifters to the 9 speed Dura Ace version (SL-7700) or barends (SL-BS77) and get the right lever to index your RD; the front left shifter was still friction.

Enough about shifters though. What I am running, and what I think would work well are old style MTB FDs. I have experience with the following using Shimano 9 speed Barend shifters (right indexed and left friction).

FD-M900, downpull FD, XTR level from 1992 – 1995. Designed for 3 x 8. Minimum number of teeth between the middle and large chainring is 8T. Maximum difference in the number of teeth between the small and large chainring is 26T (this would match what you are planning to do). Was designed for 48/38/28T or 46/36/26 rings. I am using it on a Bruce Gordon (3x9) with 44/36/22 rings. I also used it on a Santana Tandem (3x9) with 54/44/28T rings 28 rings and a Co-motion touring bike (3x9) with 44/36/22 rings. Note that the FD-M901 was top pull.

FD-M735 (XT level) and FD-M650 (LX level) from 1990-1993. Designed for 3 x 7. Minimum number of teeth between the middle and large chainring is 5T (could run in 1/2 step configurations). Maximum difference in the number of teeth between the small and large chainring is 26T (this would match what you are planning to do). I am using the FD-735 on a Co-motion touring bike (3x9) with 46/38/24 rings, and on a Cannondale (3x9) with 44/34/22 rings. I am using the FD-650 on a "vintage" Trek 520 (originally a 3 x 7 but upgraded over the years to 3x9) with 46/38/24 rings.

The particular thing I like about the above FDs is they lack the large inner plate of the more modern triples. Shimano made this change when they went to more cogs, and got rid of the protruding chain pins that used to help snag the next larger chain ring and lift the chain up onto it. This was also when Shimano started limiting the selection of front chainrings to 2 specific options; the shaping on the inner plate matched the chainrings to help lift the chain. from the small to middle chainrings I find that the older ones shift just fine, maybe not as quick or cleanly as the newer the newer FDs but then I tend to not be stomping on the pedals when shifting the front, and it allows me freedom to pick any combination of chainrings I want.

You can find still these FDs on e-bay. That is where I have picked up all the ones I am using with the exception of the M650, which came original on the Trek. If interested, PM me and I can send you copies of the original Shimano instructions for all these.
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Old 09-03-19, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84
FD-M900, downpull FD, XTR level from 1992 – 1995. Designed for 3 x 8.

FD-M735 (XT level) and FD-M650 (LX level) from 1990-1993. Designed for 3 x 7.
Would these work with my existing 9-speed drive train even though they're not designed for it?
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Old 09-03-19, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by G_I_B_B_O_N
Would these work with my existing 9-speed drive train even though they're not designed for it?

Yes, as I said in my above post I am, or have in the past, used all three of these FDs in 3x9 setups, and most have MTB cranks with the 50mm chainline. These FDs don't seem to care what chain your using (obviously I am using 9 speed to match my cassette), what crankset (I have mostly MTB cranksets), chainrings (I have a mix of ramped and pinned as well as non ramped and pinned), or rear derailleur (I am using a combination of 8 and 9 speed MTB RDs). Its all made possible using a friction front shifter. The problems begin only when you try to use Shimano road brifters, which index the front shifting.


From what you have said your setup is, any of these 3 FDs should work. If you had any qualms, you could get the LX version for about $10 used on E-bay. If it worked, and you wanted a better NOS one, they come up occasionally.
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Old 09-03-19, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84
Yes, as I said in my above post I am, or have in the past, used all three of these FDs in 3x9 setups, and most have MTB cranks with the 50mm chainline. These FDs don't seem to care what chain your using (obviously I am using 9 speed to match my cassette), what crankset (I have mostly MTB cranksets), chainrings (I have a mix of ramped and pinned as well as non ramped and pinned), or rear derailleur (I am using a combination of 8 and 9 speed MTB RDs). Its all made possible using a friction front shifter. The problems begin only when you try to use Shimano road brifters, which index the front shifting.


From what you have said your setup is, any of these 3 FDs should work. If you had any qualms, you could get the LX version for about $10 used on E-bay. If it worked, and you wanted a better NOS one, they come up occasionally.
Awesome. Thanks for the help.
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