Play in the Headset
#1
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Play in the Headset
Steerer is sloppy. When I put the front brake on while standing to the side and push the bike to and fro, there is play in the headset. There is a large "thin" threaded bolt under the stem. Can anyone tell me whats going on.?? Is it safe to ride.??
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Photos would help as well as make/model of headset if you can determine what it is. Don't ride it until you fix it though as you can cause damage to the bearing and surfaces. Headsets are usually pretty easy to maintain so once we figure out what you have we can offer some help.
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It sounds like you have a threaded headset. Hopefully, it's just loosened and the bearings and race are still good. Here's a link to Park Tool's info on threaded headset--everything from installing one to adjusting one may be found here (assuming it is a threaded headset): https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...eadset-service
#4
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Thanks Cranky.... Here's a picture. Schwinn GTX-3 ... 2015 or so.
Freeranger.... Best link ever. Evah.!!! Thanks buddy.
Important note here.... It has a shock for a fork. Also, I would say it has a threaded head. 1" straight fork.
Freeranger.... Best link ever. Evah.!!! Thanks buddy.
Important note here.... It has a shock for a fork. Also, I would say it has a threaded head. 1" straight fork.
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As to it being unsafe, it's not. But it will damage your headset in fairly short order if you don't address it. The bearings will pound into the lower cup and will eventually dent it to the point where you'll have indexed steer. That's not a good thing to have.
Threaded headset are very prone to loosening and the are worse on bikes ridden off-road. Back in the day, mountain bikes would go through threaded headsets like a kid's birthday party can go through cookies and cake. There was a cottage industry in making locking mechanisms to prevent the race and top nut from vibrating loose. Threadless was the eventual solution and doesn't suffer from that problem.
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#6
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Thank you so much cyccommute. Sounds like I can save it. I've been meaning to ask this question... Where do I turn to bike specific tools.?? Thin headed wrenches. Or that circular tool head that gets one into the rear wheel, the tool one uses on a vice to "spin" the freewheel/cassette off. I don't think I have the tools to tighten the head up.?? I'd purchase them if I knew where to do so. Park Tool carry this stuff.?? I don't need/want to spend big bucks on the tools. I just want them to work for me. I enjoy working on bikes. I've learned a lot here. Thanks everyone.
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The culprit is vibration while riding in a straight line, enabled by the looseness. The vibration displaces the bearing lubrication, leaving bare metal against bare metal, which ultimately leads to fretting erosion of the bearing surfaces and the balls.
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Thank you so much cyccommute. Sounds like I can save it. I've been meaning to ask this question... Where do I turn to bike specific tools.?? Thin headed wrenches. Or that circular tool head that gets one into the rear wheel, the tool one uses on a vice to "spin" the freewheel/cassette off. I don't think I have the tools to tighten the head up.?? I'd purchase them if I knew where to do so. Park Tool carry this stuff.?? I don't need/want to spend big bucks on the tools. I just want them to work for me. I enjoy working on bikes. I've learned a lot here. Thanks everyone.
Here is a link to the Park Tool instruction that cyccommute mentioned https://www.parktool.com/blog/repair...eadset-service
Cone (flat) wrenches are needed for adjusting axle bearing cones on wheels, pedal wrenches are also flat but have more meat to them to take a pounding. Park Tool has great stuff but not a real fan of their "kits", I prefer to buy individual tools and source some from local Home Depots or Harbor Freight.
If you are just getting started and only going to occasionally working on your own bike, it may be hard to justify the expense of a Park Tool kit . There are some other companies out there that make bike tool kits that may better fit your level and budget, you can always add the individual Park Tool items later.
Here is one that seems to cover the basics and won't break the bank.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/BIKEHAND-Qu...79e9da120aee31
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#9
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Thank you so much cyccommute. Sounds like I can save it. I've been meaning to ask this question... Where do I turn to bike specific tools.?? Thin headed wrenches. Or that circular tool head that gets one into the rear wheel, the tool one uses on a vice to "spin" the freewheel/cassette off. I don't think I have the tools to tighten the head up.?? I'd purchase them if I knew where to do so. Park Tool carry this stuff.?? I don't need/want to spend big bucks on the tools. I just want them to work for me. I enjoy working on bikes. I've learned a lot here. Thanks everyone.
Your bike shop can order the the headset from Quality Bike Products (QBP). If you have an REI nearby, you can get the headset wrench from there or have REI ship them to you. You will need to know what size the headset takes. You can even order them direct from Park Tool. It looks like the top nut and the cup are the same size so you can measure the top nut to get the proper size that you need. Use an caliper if you have one but if you don't use adjustable wrench and just measure the width from the wrench jaws. You only need the thin tool for the cup. You can use the adjustable wrench on the top nut.
Alternatively, if you don't want to buy the tool, see if there is a bicycle co-op or tool library in your area.
I wouldn't necessarily order any kind of "tool kit" for bicycle repair. Just get the tools you need as you go along. It's slightly more expensive going that route but you end up with a better tool kit without stuff you don't need. If you don't need it or you have to replace it, you aren't saving money.
Finally, if your headset has been "indexed" and it has bearings in keepers, you can give it a bit more life by removing the bearings (the lower cup is the only one that will dimple) and putting loose ones in their place. You can take the bearings out of the keeper and add a few more to take up the space. This will keep the balls from falling into the same holes and will get rid of the indexing.
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Last edited by cyccommute; 09-06-19 at 07:58 AM.
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#10
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That’s not how headset bearings become “indexed”. No amount of pounding is enough to dent a bearing cup or cone.
The culprit is vibration while riding in a straight line, enabled by the looseness. The vibration displaces the bearing lubrication, leaving bare metal against bare metal, which ultimately leads to fretting erosion of the bearing surfaces and the balls.
The culprit is vibration while riding in a straight line, enabled by the looseness. The vibration displaces the bearing lubrication, leaving bare metal against bare metal, which ultimately leads to fretting erosion of the bearing surfaces and the balls.
Brinelling/ˈbrɪnəlɪŋ/ is the permanent indentation of a hard surface. It is named after the Brinell scale of hardness, in which a small ball is pushed against a hard surface at a preset level of force, and the depth and diameter of the mark indicates the Brinell hardness of the surface. Brinelling is a process of wear in which similar marks are pressed into the surface of a moving part...
Brinelling is a material surface failure caused by Hertz contact stress that exceeds the material limit. It usually occurs in situations where a significant load force is distributed over a relatively small surface area. Brinelling typically results from a heavy or repeated impact load, either while stopped or during rotation, though it can also be caused by just one application of a force greater than the material limit.
Brinelling can be caused by a heavy load resting on a stationary bearing for an extended length of time. The result is a permanent dent or "brinell mark". The brinell marks will often appear in evenly spaced patterns along the bearing races, resembling the primary elements of the bearing, such as rows of indented lines for needle or roller bearings or rounded indentations in ball bearings.
Brinelling is a material surface failure caused by Hertz contact stress that exceeds the material limit. It usually occurs in situations where a significant load force is distributed over a relatively small surface area. Brinelling typically results from a heavy or repeated impact load, either while stopped or during rotation, though it can also be caused by just one application of a force greater than the material limit.
Brinelling can be caused by a heavy load resting on a stationary bearing for an extended length of time. The result is a permanent dent or "brinell mark". The brinell marks will often appear in evenly spaced patterns along the bearing races, resembling the primary elements of the bearing, such as rows of indented lines for needle or roller bearings or rounded indentations in ball bearings.
Fretting, on the other hand is more related to corrosion than to impact. Fretting leads more to pitting and corrosion which are irregular. A fretted headset should fret at just about any bearing and wear should be random. If fretting were the mechanism, you'd expect to see fretting on both the top and bottom cups or races and the fretting would be randomly distributed.
And I don't see why you think hardened steel bearings won't dent unharden steel cups or aluminum cups. Per above, Brinneling is a test used to test metal hardness by pushing a hardened steel ball into a metal surface. A loose headset is just a dynamic version of that test.
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#11
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Your bike shop can order the the headset from Quality Bike Products (QBP). If you have an REI nearby, you can get the headset wrench from there or have REI ship them to you. You will need to know what size the headset takes. You can even order them direct from Park Tool. It looks like the top nut and the cup are the same size so you can measure the top nut to get the proper size that you need. Use an caliper if you have one but if you don't use adjustable wrench and just measure the width from the wrench jaws. You only need the thin tool for the cup. You can use the adjustable wrench on the top nut.
Alternatively, if you don't want to buy the tool, see if there is a bicycle co-op or tool library in your area.
I wouldn't necessarily order any kind of "tool kit" for bicycle repair. Just get the tools you need as you go along. It's slightly more expensive going that route but you end up with a better tool kit without stuff you don't need. If you don't need it or you have to replace it, you aren't saving money.
Finally, if your headset has been "indexed" and it has bearings in keepers, you can give it a bit more life by removing the bearings (the lower cup is the only one that will dimple) and putting loose ones in their place. You can take the bearings out of the keeper and add a few more to take up the space. This will keep the balls from falling into the same holes and will get rid of the indexing.
Alternatively, if you don't want to buy the tool, see if there is a bicycle co-op or tool library in your area.
I wouldn't necessarily order any kind of "tool kit" for bicycle repair. Just get the tools you need as you go along. It's slightly more expensive going that route but you end up with a better tool kit without stuff you don't need. If you don't need it or you have to replace it, you aren't saving money.
Finally, if your headset has been "indexed" and it has bearings in keepers, you can give it a bit more life by removing the bearings (the lower cup is the only one that will dimple) and putting loose ones in their place. You can take the bearings out of the keeper and add a few more to take up the space. This will keep the balls from falling into the same holes and will get rid of the indexing.
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Another "solution" to an indexed headset, is to tap out the bearing cups/races and shift them around 90°. Back to no-hands riding goodness.
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In reality, a loose headset is unlikely to become indexed, as the movement of the vibrating bearings is enough to maintain lubrication, and fretting damage will not occur under lubrication.
Fretting, on the other hand is more related to corrosion than to impact. Fretting leads more to pitting and corrosion which are irregular. A fretted headset should fret at just about any bearing and wear should be random. If fretting were the mechanism, you'd expect to see fretting on both the top and bottom cups or races and the fretting would be randomly distributed.
A fellow engineer and occasional riding companion named Jobst Brandt (now deceased) wrote about headset indexing in detail on rec.bicycles.tech. If I haven't convinced you, maybe he will.
#14
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I took the bike to the LBS today. He tightened the the cup and the locknut and the problem didn't go away. Its a little better than it was but it certainly didn't fix the problem. The steering continues to be great. It doesn't hang up at all. Steering is silky smooth. Any other ideas as to why I continue to have some play in the headset.??
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Nope. There is not enough load to indent, with or without vibration, under static or dynamic loads.
In reality, a loose headset is unlikely to become indexed, as the movement of the vibrating bearings is enough to maintain lubrication, and fretting damage will not occur under lubrication.
In reality, a loose headset is unlikely to become indexed, as the movement of the vibrating bearings is enough to maintain lubrication, and fretting damage will not occur under lubrication.
Additionally, if fretting due to lack of lubrication were the reason for the dents, the fretting would occur all around the cup and in the top cup as well. I've never seen dents form in the top part of a headset. Fretting would also result in random dent depth. The dents that form are regularly sized and decrease in depth as you move form the center line of the headset towards both sides.
A fellow engineer and occasional riding companion named Jobst Brandt (now deceased) wrote about headset indexing in detail on rec.bicycles.tech. If I haven't convinced you, maybe he will.
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#16
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I took the bike to the LBS today. He tightened the the cup and the locknut and the problem didn't go away. Its a little better than it was but it certainly didn't fix the problem. The steering continues to be great. It doesn't hang up at all. Steering is silky smooth. Any other ideas as to why I continue to have some play in the headset.??
Check to make sure the play is in the headset. Pull hard on the front brake so that the wheel won't turn. Rock the bike back and forth against that brake. If you still feel play, grab the wheel behind the fork so as to isolate the upper parts of your suspension fork and rock again. If you still feel play, it may be in the suspension fork. They often have a little play in the seals.
You might also check the front wheel bearings to see if they have play. Also check your front quick release while you are at it. And check the brakes to see if they have play in them. Basically, rock and move and prod anything you can think of to see if the play is really in the headset or somewhere else. I'd suspect play in the fork.
By the way, pay no attention to the side argument. Angels on a pin head and all that.
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I agree that you should check for movement somewhere other than the headset.
#18
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Yup. Okay. I'll do that. I too am wondering if its in the shock fork. I'm not overly concerned at this point but I would like to know for myself what exactly is going on. I'd like to chalk this up for experience.
Just for the record, this bike has given to me waay more than I've given to it. I've rode many trails with this bike. Ad recently I've had some fast descents down mowed hillsides and fields. A lot of shaking going on. And, last week I bought a Giant Talon 29 for those rough trails and hillsides. I'm discovering new trails everywhere I go. Its a great change of pace from the 1,150 road miles this summer.
Just for the record, this bike has given to me waay more than I've given to it. I've rode many trails with this bike. Ad recently I've had some fast descents down mowed hillsides and fields. A lot of shaking going on. And, last week I bought a Giant Talon 29 for those rough trails and hillsides. I'm discovering new trails everywhere I go. Its a great change of pace from the 1,150 road miles this summer.
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For anyone interested in the hows and whys of an indexed headset, the phenomenon is known as False Brinelling.
Brinelling because the dents in the bearing cups and cones look like they were smashed in by the hardened steel bearings (but they were not).
False Brinelling because the indentations are not made by brinelling, but instead were made by fretting wear.
Roughly speaking, a headset bearing doesn't wear evenly like a hub or bottom bracket bearing that spins. Instead, vibration while riding causes headset wear directly underneath the stationary balls of the headset, which leave dents at those spots.
There is a decent Wikipedia article on False Brinelling that goes into more detail, which mentions threaded bicycle headsets as an example.
Brinelling because the dents in the bearing cups and cones look like they were smashed in by the hardened steel bearings (but they were not).
False Brinelling because the indentations are not made by brinelling, but instead were made by fretting wear.
Roughly speaking, a headset bearing doesn't wear evenly like a hub or bottom bracket bearing that spins. Instead, vibration while riding causes headset wear directly underneath the stationary balls of the headset, which leave dents at those spots.
There is a decent Wikipedia article on False Brinelling that goes into more detail, which mentions threaded bicycle headsets as an example.
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Stand the bike up on two wheels, grab the front brake with your left hand, wrap your right hand around the top of the headset (where it meets the frame's head tube), and rock the bike forwards and back.
If there is any looseness in the headset, you will feel it in your right hand.
#21
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For anyone interested in the hows and whys of an indexed headset, the phenomenon is known as False Brinelling.
Brinelling because the dents in the bearing cups and cones look like they were smashed in by the hardened steel bearings (but they were not).
False Brinelling because the indentations are not made by brinelling, but instead were made by fretting wear.
Roughly speaking, a headset bearing doesn't wear evenly like a hub or bottom bracket bearing that spins. Instead, vibration while riding causes headset wear directly underneath the stationary balls of the headset, which leave dents at those spots.
There is a decent Wikipedia article on False Brinelling that goes into more detail, which mentions threaded bicycle headsets as an example.
Brinelling because the dents in the bearing cups and cones look like they were smashed in by the hardened steel bearings (but they were not).
False Brinelling because the indentations are not made by brinelling, but instead were made by fretting wear.
Roughly speaking, a headset bearing doesn't wear evenly like a hub or bottom bracket bearing that spins. Instead, vibration while riding causes headset wear directly underneath the stationary balls of the headset, which leave dents at those spots.
There is a decent Wikipedia article on False Brinelling that goes into more detail, which mentions threaded bicycle headsets as an example.
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Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
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Back to the OP's question. It's common for low cost suspension forks to develop play between the sliding lower legs and the stationary uppers. When you do the usual headset slop test with locking the front brake (while stopped) and rock the bike fore and aft AND if the forks are also sloppy you will feel both the headset's and the fork's contribution to slop. Turning the ft wheel/bars 90* and repeating the locked ft brake and rock will reduce the fork's portion by a lot. Working the fork in a side to side way tends to remove it's slop allowing one to focus on the headset. Andy
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Location: Palo Alto, CA
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Old headset was frame-race-ball-race-fork.
Modern headset is frame-race-cartridge-race-fork. The race-cartridge-race combination acts as a plain bearing that accommodates the fork vibration, so the cartridge-ball interface doesn’t vibrate to produce fretting wear.
Typical Threadless Headset
Last edited by terrymorse; 09-11-19 at 04:32 PM.
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There are many thousands of bikes with a threadless headset that also use the cup as the bearing contact surface. The bearings are typically held in place with a plastic seal/snap ring. I've service a few dozens over the years.
As to brinelling or fretting... I'll be happy to sit on the side lines and hope for a good game then play. Andy
As to brinelling or fretting... I'll be happy to sit on the side lines and hope for a good game then play. Andy
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AndrewRStewart
AndrewRStewart