LucasHartong

Hello friends, got a new mystery frame, without any clues. No labels, numbers, anything. Dutch? Belgian? Italian? I have been restoring it to it's present state as well as possible.





What I know right now is this:

Built: first half 1977

- Frame: steel (hey!)

- Headset: Hatta Swan (25.4 mm)

- Crank: Sakae SA 42/52 alu 170 mm

- Bracket: Shimano

- Gear levers: Shimano LB-160 (600 serie)

- Derailleur front: Shimano FD-FE12 (28.6 mm)

- Derailleur rear: Shimano 600 EX Arabesque

- Pinion: Shimano (5x)

- Pedals: Campagnolo Chorus 750/000 (later addition)

- Rims: Mavic MA (green label) 700c

- Hubs: Shimano 600 (first series)

- Tyres: Schwalbe Blizzard Sport 700 x 23c

- Brakes: Mafac 2000 gold center pull, including levers (june ’76)

- Saddle: Selle San Marco Squadra HDP (titanium)

- Saddle pen: SR Custom-P3 meltforged

- Handlebar: Cinelli 66 ‘Campione del Mundo’ (26.4 mm)

- Campagnolo cable clamps

Any suggestions appreciated.

bikemig 

Nice bike and nice build. I'm curious how do you know the year the bike was built (first half of '77) if you don't know the manufacturer?

Doug Fattic 

The best way for me to identify a frame is to show the details of the joints. The seat stay to seat lug treatment can be especially telling. Even the bottom bracket shell can reveal clues to the maker of the frame. Back in the classic era, it was common to buy just a frame and then put whatever parts on it so what components were used then and possibly changed over time are not necessarily insightful.

LucasHartong

Date codes on parts and looking up in what year the parts were produced, e.g. through Velobase. Sometimes it's a bit of 'Fingerspitzengefuhl' too.

LucasHartong

True, my experience too.

MiloFrance

My first instinct was decent level Gitane, looking at the swaged seat stay tops and lugs. Its possible I'm being misled by the very Gitane Pro blue paint job though. Looks nice whatever it is.

'02 nrs

seatpost diameter?

unterhausen

a good picture of the seat stay/seat lug joint would be nice. The cable stop on the chainstay says production bike to me. Are there markings on the bb shell?

LucasHartong

Thanks!

LucasHartong

None. Will post some more pics tomorrow.

juvela

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Found meself wondering anent a possible MICMO origin as well...

Lucas has yet to advise us as to threading, if BSC that would rule out Nantes for this era.

Rack mounts certainly an add-on done prior to present respray.

Agree we need close-up images of head, crown, seat cluster and shell.

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madpogue 

Any markings on the steerer tube?

Interesting, braze-ons for a pannier rack, but none for the rear brake cable housing. Rack braze-ons may have come after the initial build.

unworthy1

this is a weak clue, but the fact is has a Hatta Swan headset almost always has pointed to a Benelux product (if it's OEM), though the HS may just have been replaced in a Benelux country! Much stronger clues (as others have said) will be the seatpost size (diameter) and the threading (BB shell most important, steerer next)

verktyg 

1977 Bottecchia.

They used cheap swagged seat stay tops for a long time.

verktyg

LucasHartong

Interesting. Any similar bikes/pics? And: why no decals? Did they offer 'blank' frames to other builders then?

LucasHartong

Found a picture of a '78 Bottecchia Gran Sport with exactly the same lugs on the web. Seems to confirm your guess. No attachment for an air pump on the frame, so could this indicate higher end frame? Columbus?

repechage

Quick look before work gets going.
The Italian threading is a surprise, esp due to the stay end treatments.
Could use more detail on the fork crown- including if any stiffners and the fork blade ends.
The folded over seat stay caps... hmmm A common French solution, not Italian.
the seat stay braze-ons are probably part of the respray work.

repechage

looking at the off drive side of the bottom bracket... is the shell 68mm wide?


for a 70 mm shell I would not expect that much overhang, yes they can get milled down... and French (35mm) can be tapped out to 36 mm

unterhausen

The lugs don't really identify much because they are standard, unmodified lugs.

I think the bike has been repainted, so someone might have had modifications done.

verktyg 

When you hear hoof beats, think horses not zebras!

@LucasHartong not trying to say "you have an ugly dog" but... (Your frame looks pretty nice with the new paint job).

The cosmetics on Bottecchias up until the later 70's was pretty cobby! Not up to par with other Italian marques like Bianchi.

For example they went to the trouble of chrome plating the head tube lugs on their early 70's bikes but used quick and dirty swagged seat stay tops on a Columbus framed all campy bike. (Like many French bikes)

This Bottecchia Professional is from around 1977. It has a Campy SR gruppo... Silk stockings on a rooster!



Head tube with cut out lugs (stamped out cut outs).


Seat cluster on a similar model. (I built some frames back then so I'm touchy about little details)


We used to buy Bottecchia bikes and also Atalas around 1973-75 to part them out for the Campy gruppos. They were "all Campy except for the brakes" which were Universal Mod 61.

They cost us ~$300 wholesale plus $9 motor freight from the east coast.

For that price we got a good set of wheels with reasonable to good quality sewup tires, 3TTT or Cinelli bars and stem, Unicanitor saddle, toe clips and straps, a Campy gruppo plus a frame we could sell for $75-$100. The Universal center pull went into a box.

Campy gruppos were selling for $300 alone. We sold a lot of high quality Italian and British frames which we built up with the components from some of those bikes.

Bottecchias from the late 70's on had higher quality frames but we never ran across them back then. Bottecchia was one of the casualties of the US bike boom fad when it ended in 1974.

verktyg

LucasHartong

Thanks for the info! Wasn't mad or anything near, just curious. Is it possible that Bottecchia delivered frames and that other small workshops put parts on them? Or was it 'hand made only in Italy'? The bike has a strange mix of parts... She rides great though! Like a lady in the ballroom.

verktyg 

Can't say about European sales but I'd guess that until Greg Lemond started riding Bottecchia branded bikes at the end of his career, all US Bottecchia sales were probably for complete bikes.

The 4 or so big manufacturers like Raleigh, Peugeot, Gitane and Bianchi sold a few custom ordered or team replica bare frames.

They were in business to sell bikes and those special high end models were more for publicity and advertising purposes than for profit.

I suspect that your bike originally came with Campy components and a previous owner rode it until they upgraded to a more expensive frame at which time they transferred the Campagnolo parts over to the new frame??? (or something like that).

It happened all the time. The next owner, maybe someone who worked in a bike shop put on a mishmash of components. Somewhere along the line it got a new paint job.

My suggestion is stop fretting about it and in the words of a crusty old Brit on the CR list, "just ride the bloody bike"...

The two most important parts of a bike are the frame and the wheels. You have a decent frame and wheels, the other components should work fine until they wear out which could be a long time from now.

Just keep dancing and those mix of parts may far out last you!

Relax, have some snaps and Surströmming and everything will be OK!

adjö

verktyg

LucasHartong

:d