Penetrating oil
#1
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 300
Bikes: 1977 Raleigh Record, 1987 Schwinn Prelude, 1971 Raleigh Record, 1988 Schwinn Traveler, 1967 (?) Carlton Super Course, 1959 Huffy Sportsman 3 speed, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, yet another 70-something Raleigh Record
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times
in
11 Posts
Penetrating oil
Liquid Wrench, PB Blaster, other penetrating oils -- for many years I have been using them with the assumption that they have some acidic, or otherwise corrosive component, that breaks down corrosion. Not sure how I arrived at this idea, no doubt someone else told me. And I've never thought they should be left as a final lubricant, or that not applying some other lube would leave ferrous metal in jeopardy of some long term damage from them. Is there any truth to this, or am I just wrong (again), and these penetrating oils work through some other action?
#2
I'm good to go!
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 14,984
Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6191 Post(s)
Liked 4,807 Times
in
3,316 Posts
Never heard anything about acids. But your hands have acids on them and some claim that enough to damage bearings if you don't wash your hands before handling them. I don't keep up with it now, but when I was young, that was a common position in the aircraft mechanic conversations and racing circles. This was before the days of computer bulletin boards and forums.
Since you are asking about all, then I won't say for certain, but I doubt most use acids. They just have a particular formula of oils and modifiers that help the oil penetrate and spread instead of staying in a blob.
But since they are so light, obviously their lubricating properties may not be adequate for the part you put them on. Then the question becomes is there enough of the thinner penetrating oil left to dilute the other lubricant significantly or will the coating of penetrating oil prevent the grease from clinging to the bearing surface and doing what it is supposed to do.
Most of the website for those penetrating oils have a good write up about them. sometime you have to dig a little and even look at the MSDS data or such.
And don't forget about Kroil. Sometimes it works when the others fail.
Since you are asking about all, then I won't say for certain, but I doubt most use acids. They just have a particular formula of oils and modifiers that help the oil penetrate and spread instead of staying in a blob.
But since they are so light, obviously their lubricating properties may not be adequate for the part you put them on. Then the question becomes is there enough of the thinner penetrating oil left to dilute the other lubricant significantly or will the coating of penetrating oil prevent the grease from clinging to the bearing surface and doing what it is supposed to do.
Most of the website for those penetrating oils have a good write up about them. sometime you have to dig a little and even look at the MSDS data or such.
And don't forget about Kroil. Sometimes it works when the others fail.
#3
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,359
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6218 Post(s)
Liked 4,214 Times
in
2,362 Posts
Liquid Wrench, PB Blaster, other penetrating oils -- for many years I have been using them with the assumption that they have some acidic, or otherwise corrosive component, that breaks down corrosion. Not sure how I arrived at this idea, no doubt someone else told me. And I've never thought they should be left as a final lubricant, or that not applying some other lube would leave ferrous metal in jeopardy of some long term damage from them. Is there any truth to this, or am I just wrong (again), and these penetrating oils work through some other action?
Iron oxidation (aka "rust") has a very porous nature so the oil can penetrate into it better than other kinds of oxidation. Rust is also softer than the metal it is formed from so it tends to break when force is put on it. If the iron parts can slide past each other, they can come apart easier.
Aluminum oxidation products, for example, are extremely hard and many even be nonporous. Think anodized aluminum. The aluminum oxide is also much harder than the underlying metal so it doesn't break and slide as easily. Penetration oils often don't work on aluminum parts for this reason.
You could leave the oil in place as it will still lubricate but the oil is so low a viscosity that it will eventually flow away or evaporate. Putting something like grease on the threads after you've gotten them apart will go a lot further towards keeping the parts from welding back together.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Menomonee Falls, WI
Posts: 1,833
Bikes: 1984 Schwinn Supersport, 1988 Trek 400T, 1977 Trek TX900, 1982 Bianchi Champione del Mondo, 1978 Raleigh Supercourse, 1986 Trek 400 Elance, 1991 Waterford PDG OS Paramount, 1971 Schwinn Sports Tourer, 1985 Trek 670
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 604 Post(s)
Liked 1,063 Times
in
535 Posts
I have a 70s British sports car with chrome and stainless wire wheels. Every year before winter storage, I coat the wheels liberally with WD-40, and leave it so all winter. I bought those wheels in 1995, they still look new. Never heard of any instance of WD-40 actually harming metal surfaces. Not sure on PB Blaster, my first choice on seized hardware.
Tim
Tim
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 33,656
Bikes: '96 Litespeed Catalyst, '05 Litespeed Firenze, '06 Litespeed Tuscany, '20 Surly Midnight Special, All are 3x10. It is hilly around here!
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2026 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,096 Times
in
742 Posts
There are "penetrating oils" that are more than low viscosity oil. "Ed's Red" was developed as a target rifle bore cleaner but has a great reputation as a penetrating oil. It's an equal volume mix of Kerosine (or OMS), Dexron ATF and Acetone. However, as noted above, no acids of any kind.
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Menomonee Falls, WI
Posts: 1,833
Bikes: 1984 Schwinn Supersport, 1988 Trek 400T, 1977 Trek TX900, 1982 Bianchi Champione del Mondo, 1978 Raleigh Supercourse, 1986 Trek 400 Elance, 1991 Waterford PDG OS Paramount, 1971 Schwinn Sports Tourer, 1985 Trek 670
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 604 Post(s)
Liked 1,063 Times
in
535 Posts
Cyccommute's answer is way better then mine. I'd go with that. Tim
Likes For tkamd73:
#8
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 300
Bikes: 1977 Raleigh Record, 1987 Schwinn Prelude, 1971 Raleigh Record, 1988 Schwinn Traveler, 1967 (?) Carlton Super Course, 1959 Huffy Sportsman 3 speed, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, yet another 70-something Raleigh Record
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times
in
11 Posts
Sometimes I have come up with these ideas, and hold on to them forever, and have no idea how I got them. Sounds like this one is wrong. It's good to know -- I may have avoided using penetrating oil for this reason, and didn't need to. Thanks, folks.
Likes For Ol Danl:
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: NW Oregon
Posts: 2,975
Bikes: !982 Trek 930R Custom, Diamondback ascent with SERIOUS updates, Fuji Team Pro CF and a '09 Comencal Meta 5.5
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1299 Post(s)
Liked 739 Times
in
534 Posts
i use a light coating of PB to remove/reduce Aluminum oxide on parts all the time... no ill effects, and the parts look MUCH BETTER!
#11
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 300
Bikes: 1977 Raleigh Record, 1987 Schwinn Prelude, 1971 Raleigh Record, 1988 Schwinn Traveler, 1967 (?) Carlton Super Course, 1959 Huffy Sportsman 3 speed, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, yet another 70-something Raleigh Record
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 50 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times
in
11 Posts
Thanks again -- looked up the MSDS for Liquid Wrench, PB Blaster, and Aero Kroil. Under ph, for each of them, it said N/A -- so, obviously not an issue.
#12
Senior Member
Not exactly sure what you are asking, but from my experience, penetrating oil do nothing to "break free" seized bolts, seat posts, ... but once free, the oil helps lubricating the parts, for easier disassembly.
#13
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,359
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6218 Post(s)
Liked 4,214 Times
in
2,362 Posts
In these cases, I sure that the NA means "not applicable" rather than "not available". They would have no pH since they are neither acidic nor basic nor can even ionize.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Likes For cyccommute:
#14
Senior Member
Penetrating oils are just a low viscosity oils. Nothing corrosive in them. Most rust and corrosion has a lower density than the metal it forms from so the oil penetrates into the threads and lubricates them. This allows the parts to be separated because they can now slide past each other.
Iron oxidation (aka "rust") has a very porous nature so the oil can penetrate into it better than other kinds of oxidation. Rust is also softer than the metal it is formed from so it tends to break when force is put on it. If the iron parts can slide past each other, they can come apart easier.
Aluminum oxidation products, for example, are extremely hard and many even be nonporous. Think anodized aluminum. The aluminum oxide is also much harder than the underlying metal so it doesn't break and slide as easily. Penetration oils often don't work on aluminum parts for this reason.
You could leave the oil in place as it will still lubricate but the oil is so low a viscosity that it will eventually flow away or evaporate. Putting something like grease on the threads after you've gotten them apart will go a lot further towards keeping the parts from welding back together.
Iron oxidation (aka "rust") has a very porous nature so the oil can penetrate into it better than other kinds of oxidation. Rust is also softer than the metal it is formed from so it tends to break when force is put on it. If the iron parts can slide past each other, they can come apart easier.
Aluminum oxidation products, for example, are extremely hard and many even be nonporous. Think anodized aluminum. The aluminum oxide is also much harder than the underlying metal so it doesn't break and slide as easily. Penetration oils often don't work on aluminum parts for this reason.
You could leave the oil in place as it will still lubricate but the oil is so low a viscosity that it will eventually flow away or evaporate. Putting something like grease on the threads after you've gotten them apart will go a lot further towards keeping the parts from welding back together.
Likes For HerrKaLeun:
Likes For CycleryNorth81:
#16
Generally bewildered
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 3,037
Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1152 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
251 Posts
BTW, in at least one test (and I don't think its apochryfal), a 50:50 mix of ATF and acetone worked better than any pre-made product. But the acetone will strip your paint. I think a product called Kroil was the best commercial penetrating oil.
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: SGV So Cal
Posts: 883
Bikes: 80's Schwinn High Plains, Motobecane Ti Cyclocross
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 108 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 30 Times
in
21 Posts
I have a 70s British sports car with chrome and stainless wire wheels. Every year before winter storage, I coat the wheels liberally with WD-40, and leave it so all winter. I bought those wheels in 1995, they still look new. Never heard of any instance of WD-40 actually harming metal surfaces. Not sure on PB Blaster, my first choice on seized hardware.
Tim
Tim
The WD in WD-40 stands for "water displacing formulation #40" It was specifically developed to get and keep moisture out of equipment. It's fairly ineffective as a penetrating oil except in relatively undemanding circumstances.
It's also great as a cutting lubricant /coolant when drilling, taping and machining aluminum. (just don't make the mistake of using it on steel particularly with a tap!)
BITD I ran a ceramics plant. We had lots of water around machinery so used a lot of it. I had to keep it locked up because it kept disappearing. Turned out some of the older women on the lines though it was good as an arthritis treatment.
They'd heard it fixed squeaking joints.
Best penetrating oil I ever got my hands on was some sort of aircraft hydraulic fluid that was repackaged and sold as penetrating oil. That stuff was like magic so of course you can't get it anymore.
Liquid wrench seems to be about as good as there is out there now. Also works as a tapping fluid for steel and stainless steel. Not as good as the old Carbon Tet based fluids though.
Last edited by TGT1; 12-09-17 at 04:31 PM.
#18
Full Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Milwaukee-Chicago (Last stop on the North Shore Metra Line)
Posts: 372
Bikes: 1975 Fuji 'The Finest', 1975 Fuji Super Road Racer S10-S,1980 SR 10-Speed, 1980 Fuji Newest, 1984 Araya 14-Speed, 1985 Bridgestone 500, 1986 Fuji 'Sekkei Series', 1995 Gary Fisher Kaitai MTB
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times
in
8 Posts
#21
Senior Member
+1 for Kano's Kroil. The best there is. Is also the best gun bore solvent made. Lifts lead and copper residue off of a gun barrel in one swipe by breaking the bond from the metal of the gun barrel. It is not an acidic chemical.
Kroil also works well on spoke nipples that are stuck or cotter pins on cottered cranks, stuck nuts, etc.
Kroil also works well on spoke nipples that are stuck or cotter pins on cottered cranks, stuck nuts, etc.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: NW Oregon
Posts: 2,975
Bikes: !982 Trek 930R Custom, Diamondback ascent with SERIOUS updates, Fuji Team Pro CF and a '09 Comencal Meta 5.5
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1299 Post(s)
Liked 739 Times
in
534 Posts
Patience, Dan... Patience...... and there's a point of no return for rusted stuff...
Last edited by maddog34; 12-09-17 at 10:44 PM.
#23
Newbie
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: https://t.me/pump_upp
Posts: 16
Bikes: CharlesraP
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I have a 70s British sports car with chrome and stainless wire wheels. Every year before winter storage, I coat the wheels liberally with WD-40, and leave it so all winter. I bought those wheels in 1995, they still look new. Never heard of any instance of WD-40 actually harming metal surfaces. Not sure on PB Blaster, my first choice on seized hardware.
#24
Steel is real
And of course, the VERY best penetrating oil by far, a mixture of 50% ATF & 50% Acetone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CESDxCloCoQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CESDxCloCoQ
I haven't had much joy with that far as seized stems go
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Posts: 873
Bikes: Too, too many....
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 125 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 130 Times
in
57 Posts
So far I have been lucky but on the rare occasion that penetrants have not worked, I have always had success with carefully thinning the wall of the stem with a drill and PATIENTLY using a hacksaw blade to further weaken the walls of the stem until it comes free.
Works with alloy stems and with alloy seat posts..... but i have never had to try it on steel.
Bink
Works with alloy stems and with alloy seat posts..... but i have never had to try it on steel.
Bink