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RIP American Cars

Old 05-14-19, 01:49 PM
  #51  
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I figure the Odyssey and the bicycle balance each other out. The former carries Mom, sometimes me, three kids, and the dog, sometimes other people, and the bicycle takes me around town and to work.

... and that Odyssey is a vastly better use of space than a large crossover for about the same footprint. I'm looking at you, CX-9.
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Old 05-14-19, 02:06 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Hmmm....

Tundra 4x2 Double Cab, V8 (4.6L or 5.7L)
Towing: 10,200 lbs.
Tongue: 1,020 lbs.
Payload: 1600 - 1730 lbs
15 City, 19 HWY, 16 Combined MPG (4.6), and 13/18/15 (5.7)



The New F150 is looking quite impressive now.
Up to a 10 speed transmission
Although, they have a lot of options:
2.7L V6:
20/26/22 MPG
Towing: 7600 lbs to 8500 lbs
Payload: 1710 lbs to 2060 lbs
3.3L V6:
19/25/22 MPG
Towing: 5100 to 12,100 lbs
Payload: 1680 to 1700 lbs
5.0L V8:
17/23/19 MPG
Towing: 8300 to 11,100 lbs
Payload: 2080 to 2890 lbs

https://toyotanews.pressroom.toyota....+info.download
https://media.ford.com/content/dam/f...2019-F-150.pdf


So, depending on the options, the new F150 has a pretty impressive payload. Towing isn't that different from the Tundra.

The new F150 pickups do have pretty impressive fuel efficiency ratings.

However, for those really wanting to push the towing limits, they'll skip the F150, and go to the F350 (towing up to 20,000 lbs) or F450 (towing up to 34,000 lbs).

Lots of different cargo capacities, but the F450 is rated to over 2 tons cargo.

https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content/dam/brand_ford/en_us/brand/resources/general/pdf/guides/Prelm19RV&TT_Ford_SuperDtyPU_May4.pdf

And, of course, other brands, Chevy, Dodge, etc.

For the last decade or two, there has been a bit of an arms race of capacities, with the traditional half-ton models being rated to carry up to a ton or so, and the one-ton models being rated to carry up to two tons or so.

The old pickups from the 1960's and 1970's would really bog down if one loaded a half ton pickup with a full ton cargo.

Ford, in particular has been working on adding more aluminum to their pickups to reduce the vehicle weight and increase the cargo ratings. They've also gone to variable cylinder engine configurations to improve fuel efficiency.

Still, the trucks are good when a truck is needed, but overkill for the trips to the grocery store that most of them do most of the time.
5.7 L Toyota tows 10,000, 5.0 L F-150 tows 11,100. Toyota has nothing bigger... Ford has many more options... oh yeah... so little difference.

When I am not towing, I swap my truck for a bicycle... or use the wife's Mazda 3... about 35 MPG.

Parking a truck "in town," is a major hassle.

I'm sure "country cousins" feel the same about riding bikes to the store.
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Old 05-14-19, 02:08 PM
  #53  
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My next door neighbor owns three dually diesel pickups. One of his side business in RV sales, so I see the need for one. But the other two are for his wife and son. He only has room for two so he parks the third on road in front my house.
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Old 05-14-19, 02:09 PM
  #54  
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I figure the Odyssey and the bicycle balance each other out. The former carries Mom, sometimes me, three kids, and the dog, sometimes other people, and the bicycle takes me around town and to work.

... and that Odyssey is a vastly better use of space than a large crossover for about the same footprint. I'm looking at you, CX-9.


Yeah, I always try to consider not just miles driven, but person-miles driven. It makes more sense to use a car to transport 5 people than just 1.
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Old 05-14-19, 05:44 PM
  #55  
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Texas is full of Honda Civics, Accords and CRVs. Good gas mileage for the long distances. Toyota and Nissan small efficient cars as well. Just not a red or blue thing, an economic sense thing.
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Old 05-14-19, 10:27 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
My next door neighbor owns three dually diesel pickups. One of his side business in RV sales, so I see the need for one. But the other two are for his wife and son. He only has room for two so he parks the third on road in front my house.
Parking pickups on the street is strictly forbidden in many neighborhoods I know. In fact, I know of one with ordnance that no pickup is allowed to be seen from the street after business hours. I take it the two of you are friends?
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Old 05-15-19, 03:59 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post



The old pickups from the 1960's and 1970's would really bog down if one loaded a half ton pickup with a full ton cargo.
We did it occasionally, in the '70s on a commercial paint crew, outrageously overloading half ton pickups with bags of sand or pulling a 600 Compressor (6-71 Detroit) by the tongue with a 454 V8 Chevy half ton also loaded with 5 gal cans of paint and a skyclimber cage and driving them for 4 to 12 hours to and from the Texas panhandle to eastern Oklahoma or down to Austin and beyond. They might bottom out still sitting and wallow like a drunk on the road but I don't recall any bogging down. The 352 V8 Ford half ton with the coil springs and twin I beams would hold the most and still not bottom out while sitting. The Chevy half ton (327 or 350 V8) with leaf springs in back and A frames in front wouldn't hold as much but still more than my low slung '65 AMC 4WD Jeep with a 327 V8 and leaf springs around, which was the first to bottom as we were loading. Don't remember the calculated weights other than the Ford taking somewhere over a ton.

Internationals with stiff overload leaf springs in back and single I beam with leaf springs in front can be just flat dangerous, with no load, bouncing around in the back as if they wanted to shake their bed back and forth like some flirty girl walking down the street. They'll behave better when you load them with a half ton or more though.

Fords in the oil fields and seismograph crews seemed to take the beating better than the Internationals with those twin I beam axles and coil springs and better insulation. Road construction foremen who drove the highways seldom leaving pavement seemed partial to Chevy handling with those A frame front ends. That's all to do with '60s and '70s trucks which is what I know first hand.

My low mileage 2wd 4 cylinder 1999 Toyota Tacoma retirement vehicle is my first Japanese vehicle and just might be the best quality truck I've owned. It's a bit of a tight fit to work on and I'd like about 2 more inches of legroom but I don't drive it out of town very far. I tried to hold off going Japanese but my last two American vehicles, a '97 Riviera and '92 V6 Dakota convinced me to take the "fureign" thing for the long retirement ride.

Last edited by Zinger; 05-15-19 at 05:08 AM.
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Old 05-15-19, 07:58 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by no motor? View Post
Nice story, I figured he'd write something like that.
Yep, good article.

"The size of your truck is inversely proportional to the size of your..."
...wallet.
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Old 05-15-19, 08:21 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
So, say a car comes in 10 MPG low, then the fine per car is $550... a big chunk of change, but still small enough that it could get lost in say a $20K to $80K price tag of the vehicle, as just another tax.
It doesn't get lost in the price, it is added to what consumers pay, with markup. And then Republicans point to it as another evil of regulation being foisted on the US by Democrats. When it's actually the corporations passing along the penalty.
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Old 05-15-19, 08:34 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by DesmoDog View Post
...Could US manufacturers make copies of the Prius? I suppose they could, but why?

Auto companies are in business to make money....

Small cars don't sell well in the US. Small cars don't make the big money....

If car companies were making money selling traditional cars, they wouldn't be cancelling them.
Cars are lower margin product than trucks. Less cars, more trucks = higher profit for car companies.

CAFE laws don't apply to trucks -- get rid of cars and you can ignore CAFE standards. However, I do wish that every law that applied to commercial trucks would also be applied to trucks bought for non-commercial purposes, and their drivers. You want a truck? Fine, but you gotta play by truck rules...

Last time there was an oil crisis, USA kicked small car production into gear. Now, with a more global economy, they don't have to build them here -- they can import cars they manufacture elsewhere if the demand for cars ever comes back, or simply buy someone else's cars and re-badge them.

If we wanted a true use fee for the roads, we would assess fees at annual registration with a gross vehicle weight x annual mileage formula. But of course that would punish those who buy trucks and the companies who sell them, so such a common sense fee will never happen...
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Old 05-15-19, 09:02 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
Cars are lower margin product than trucks. Less cars, more trucks = higher profit for car companies.

CAFE laws don't apply to trucks -- get rid of cars and you can ignore CAFE standards. However, I do wish that every law that applied to commercial trucks would also be applied to trucks bought for non-commercial purposes, and their drivers. You want a truck? Fine, but you gotta play by truck rules...
You know better than that. The last thing we need is more government control over the consumer. We have government to protect us, not regulate our freedom choice.

Last time there was an oil crisis, USA kicked small car production into gear. Now, with a more global economy, they don't have to build them here -- they can import cars they manufacture elsewhere if the demand for cars ever comes back, or simply buy someone else's cars and re-badge them.
To be fair, that's nothing new. They've been doing that for a very long time.

If we wanted a true use fee for the roads, we would assess fees at annual registration with a gross vehicle weight x annual mileage formula. But of course that would punish those who buy trucks and the companies who sell them, so such a common sense fee will never happen...
And that's a good thing. There are more ways to affect people's choice than regulation.
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Old 05-15-19, 09:24 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
You know better than that. The last thing we need is more government control over the consumer. We have government to protect us, not regulate our freedom choice.
You'd still be free to buy and operate a truck. Just that you actually have to play by truck rules. Either that or go the other way and include light trucks in CAFE standards. Shouldn't get to have it both ways -- in essence, it is gov't subsidization of the light truck market.

Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
To be fair, that's nothing new. They've been doing that for a very long time.
Of course. Just that before, there was always parallel US car manufacturing capacity. Only pointing out that if cars suddenly do become popular again, domestic car companies are not without the resources to meet demand. Ford is still making cars in Europe; Buick is still making cars in China...

Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
And that's a good thing. There are more ways to affect people's choice than regulation.
Instead, you are in favor of how it stands now? With additional taxes being applied to electric cars because they are not paying a gas tax? That's not a fair share solution, it's punitive -- fair would be if people were paying for use and actual impact on the roads, i.e. a GVWR x annual mileage calculation.
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Old 05-15-19, 09:33 AM
  #63  
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IMO, large trucks have gotten a free pass on regulation and taxes, for decades. When it comes to "annoying things we need to regulate", giant trucks are the 300 lb gorilla that everyone is afraid to challenge. There should be a price to pay for driving something that big, gas-guzzling, exhaust-belching, loud, heavy, and dangerous to other drivers, bicyclists and pedestrians.

Regulating these trucks would cause fewer to be sold, since very few people driving them actually NEED something that big. I would propose a "needs test" for anyone wanting to buy one of these trucks. If you don't have some compelling reason to drive something so big, a car dealer can't sell you one. Owning a seven foot tall pickup truck is not a Constitutional right, so what's the harm in trying to limit the numbers of them out on the road? Which are clearly excessive at this point in time, that's not even arguable.
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Old 05-15-19, 10:21 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
CAFE laws don't apply to trucks
?? I don't think that's true. Commercial 18-wheelers maybe, but 'light trucks' which are what people buy to drive their groceries around (and including SUVs) must be included in CAFE
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Old 05-15-19, 10:34 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
?? I don't think that's true. Commercial 18-wheelers maybe, but 'light trucks' which are what people buy to drive their groceries around (and including SUVs) must be included in CAFE
You are correct -- they are included in CAFE standards, but the mileage allowed for Light Trucks is less than that allowed for cars. Also, rate by which mileage was to increase was also lower for trucks than for cars. There are different classifications and standards for cars vs. light trucks, with the standards for light trucks on the more lenient end of things.
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Old 05-15-19, 10:56 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
Last time there was an oil crisis, USA kicked small car production into gear. Now, with a more global economy, they don't have to build them here -- they can import cars they manufacture elsewhere if the demand for cars ever comes back, or simply buy someone else's cars and re-badge them.
Did the Big 3 ever kick small car production into high gear?

There have been a couple of attempts here and there. A lot of it has been bringing in foreign cars and re-badging them. Then a few years lager, the US versions vanished and all that remained were the new imports under the original name.

$3 gas seemed pretty extreme a decade or two ago. Is it the new norm now?

What are the chances that the average price of gas will be > $5 by 2025?

China and India have been really trying to break into the US auto market.

Will Ford or GM be the ones to finally open the floodgates to Chinese and Indian cars?

(Indian motorcycles don't count).
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Old 05-15-19, 11:10 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Did the Big 3 ever kick small car production into high gear?
Ford Escort, Chevy Chevette, Dodge Omni, etc. Ford developed into a global producer of small cars. One I'd love to own but which will never be sold in the US is the Euro-only Ka.


Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
China and India have been really trying to break into the US auto market.

Will Ford or GM be the ones to finally open the floodgates to Chinese and Indian cars?
Kinda like Trump ran as a (R) instead of an (I), China and India have started buying their way into the US. Jaguar and Land Rover are owned by Tata (India), Volvo is owned by Geely (China). Apparently, there are also various Ford, and GM models produced in China and imported into the USA.

FWIW, most of the smaller motorcycles, all the way up through mid-size bikes, like the BMW 310 and KTM 390, along with the Japanese Big Four brand 200-400cc bikes, are actually manufactured in China and India... Royal Enfield (India) sells into the US market, and there's a host of cheap Chinese off-brands you can get, too.
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Old 05-15-19, 11:13 AM
  #68  
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I always see Skoda cars in the Tour de France (they're a sponsor) but I have never seen a single one on the road in the US. Too bad, I like some of the designs.
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Old 05-15-19, 11:14 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
You are correct -- they are included in CAFE standards, but the mileage allowed for Light Trucks is less than that allowed for cars. Also, rate by which mileage was to increase was also lower for trucks than for cars. There are different classifications and standards for cars vs. light trucks, with the standards for light trucks on the more lenient end of things.
OK, that makes sense. They can just separately work on getting the cars to meet the higher car-standards, and the trucks to meet the lower truck-standards (or not, and pass the penalty on to the bro-dozer-addicted consumer).

I thought I had read a few years ago that standards were singular, so manufacturers were forced (incentivized) to overprice trucks and SUVs and underprice fuel-efficient to entice the public to buy a balance of cars with a low enough combined average.
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Old 05-15-19, 11:28 AM
  #70  
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Forget pollution, which is bad enough, but what about safety standards? Trucks and SUV's can obviously cause a lot of damage in collisions, especially with smaller cars, and especially when the truck is huge, heavy and lifted.

There really should be some penalty to pay for driving a vehicle like that, rather than having the govt essentially subsidize trucks and SUV's by giving them a break on CAFE standards. What this really is is a gift to car companies. And to people who like driving huge vehicles. Unless that's the kind of vehicle we want to encourage millions of people to drive, nothing wrong with that, etc.
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Old 05-15-19, 11:47 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
We just need to switch fuel sources and mpg will cease to be a problem.
I've long proposed Cognitive Dissonance as an unlimited power source ,
once they can access the proper neurons..
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Old 05-15-19, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985 View Post
I always see Skoda cars in the Tour de France (they're a sponsor) but I have never seen a single one on the road in the US. Too bad, I like some of the designs.
They're an old Czech Company, now invested in by Volkswagen

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Old 05-15-19, 11:59 AM
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Old 05-15-19, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
They're an old Czech Company, now invested in by Volkswagen
Yes, SKODA is czech VW, and SEAT is spanish VW. As I understand it, the cars are pretty much identical except for some cosmetic stuff.

I have a VW Golf that for years has been missing the driver-side seat release handle (so people can get in the back). When I got a 3D printer last year, my wife's first request was that I print a replacement handle. I found that somebody had already designed one and posted it on Thingiverse, noting it works for " golf mk4, audi, skoda, seat, polo, (2 doors)". I did have to thicken it a little for strength, but otherwise it works great!
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Old 05-15-19, 12:43 PM
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The Skoda Wikipedia page shows them involved in manufacturing in all sorts of things in various countries..
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