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Invasion of the E-bikes!

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Invasion of the E-bikes!

Old 10-10-19, 10:35 AM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I'm bothered by how that story has turned out 'defenders' of ebike users by going into diversions about health issues and a-fib or whatnot. If there's a topic to discuss here, I think it might be about whether we think the industry might be going in a direction where ebikes could become the norm purchase for everyone (young, healthy, old, infirm). As cyclists, how in turn do we feel about that? -- as it can easily be imagined that the bike clubs, organized rides, even the informal races (eg. GFNY) could begin to have allowances for these in the not too distant future.

The commercials that Spesh and Trek are putting out, while a bit funny, aren't really selling the electric road bike models as a solution to a problem (ie. aging, health); they're more angled at 'surprise or annoy other riders at how effortless cycling can be'. I guess this bothers me as a marketing platform.

As new shoppers for a bicycle walk into a LBS today, and if they have the money, I can easily see today's young adult population being sold on the idea of ebikes.. commuting without sweating, only need to use the assist if you want or need to, what's not to like, etc.

Electric longboard skateboards have really taken off too in the last couple years. I used to pass the regular, leg-powered, versions of these riders on my commutes on the MUP.. now they pass me, motorized at 20-25mph. sigh.
I guess you're right that it's a little silly for orle to be justifying them here, it's not like anybody needs our permission to ride one.

Some group rides will allow eBikes, some won't. I think it's probably for the best that many do, for inclusivity. If you don't want to ride with them, do other group rides, start a group ride so you can guarantee that won't be allowed, or - the horror! - do solo rides.

I haven't seen any commercials for them so I can't say much about that. (I hate advertising and avoid it to the best of my ability.) But Trek and Spesh are in the business of making money, and these things are selling, so they'll probably keep doing it.

Being angry about this stuff won't change it, and it's not good for your quality of life either. This is something we all have to accept. Looking at the positives makes that easier: more people are spending time outside, getting some exercise, and replacing some car trips. Cycling is fun, I'm glad more people are going it, even if I can't help feeling a little bit like they're doing it "wrong."
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Old 10-10-19, 10:37 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by Zaskar
No, it's the "type" of bike that has a &$#*ing motor. It's no longer just a bike.
To be fair, my bike has two motors, I want sold at first, but it turns out Di2 is fantastic. 😉
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Old 10-10-19, 10:40 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Looking at the positives makes that easier: more people are spending time outside, getting some exercise, and replacing some car trips. Cycling is fun, I'm glad more people are going it, even if I can't help feeling a little bit like they're doing it "wrong."
Somebody showed me an article about how eBikes improve people's fitness more than regular bike, and that got under my skin. Because it's obviously not true, and Bicycling Magazine shouldn't be lying to people. But there's nothing I can do about it.
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Old 10-10-19, 10:49 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Somebody showed me an article about how eBikes improve people's fitness more than regular bike, and that got under my skin. Because it's obviously not true, and Bicycling Magazine shouldn't be lying to people. But there's nothing I can do about it.
If someone on an e-bike is motivated to ride longer (time) and go further because they're *gasp* having more fun, then they are getting more exercise and fitness out of it.

I've read many similar accounts, especially for people on bents and trikes, that this is exactly what they're doing. I say, more power to them. But I'm not a competitive cyclist, I hate riding in any groups, and I only ride for commuting, exercise, and fun....by myself.
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Old 10-10-19, 10:54 AM
  #130  
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That's exactly what they were saying, people are riding longer on average (we're not average in here, "normal" people don't ride centuries, they ride 5 miles), and riding more. People are riding them for fun but also using them to get groceries instead of driving. The study showed that (again on average) people with eBikes (including non motorized cyclists who got an ebike for errands) get more minutes of exercise.

But intensity is the other part of the equation.
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Old 10-10-19, 11:07 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Somebody showed me an article about how eBikes improve people's fitness more than regular bike, and that got under my skin. Because it's obviously not true, and Bicycling Magazine shouldn't be lying to people. But there's nothing I can do about it.


This one comment caught my eye. Bicycling magazine is so full of myths, untruths, exaggerations, and lies, it's essentially tabloid cycling journalism. The so-called reviews read like blatant advertisements.

So take anything said there (or here in BF, for that matter), with a grain of salt.
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Old 10-10-19, 12:10 PM
  #132  
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“It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle an electric motorcycle.”
Updated for 2019.
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Old 10-10-19, 12:21 PM
  #133  
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As one who's long been into cycling (enjoy all disciplines) and motorcycles (dirt to road, closed course), I really dig the e-bike and rapid evolution.

As expected from the majority of US motor vehicle drivers being anti-bicyclist, the e-bike is a hard sell here.

Though I find it typical too of the narrow minded cyclist today whom shun them, yet have never even test ridden. Its another transporter that may not fit ones lifestyle, and if they had any respect should shut up.


These 'motorbikes' are important in many ways, largely in other countries and for low income the only means of efficient transportation.

A few things I would like to address:

Mandatory liability insurance.

Mega fines for ALL cyclist breaking laws such as blowing traffic controlled intersections. And fot the drunks who ride and continually break laws should be put to labor work, building bikeways rather than fined (because they don't pay them anyways).

Allow mister megawatt cycle owner to enjoy his ride -no limits or govt. controls on these lightweight electric 'motorbikes' but DO enforce speeds, proper passing reg's on public trails, bicycle / pedestrian paths, etc..

Allow all e-bikes as non motorized on public trails. I ride some trails in a very wealthy county that rarely are used by cyclist or hikers. Much as I enjoy them, its a disgusting waste of taxpayers funds. Beautiful underpasses under limited travel county roads, each costing a $mil. or more. E-bikes are considered motorbikes and not permitted. Nor are these paths permitted to be ridden at night.

This would alleviate some road congestion and likely help sell / support the failing bicycle industry. And it case you're wondering, its almost 2020 and the US cycling industry is crumbling.

Last edited by crank_addict; 10-10-19 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 10-10-19, 12:26 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by Notso_fastLane
If someone on an e-bike is motivated to ride longer (time) and go further because they're *gasp* having more fun, then they are getting more exercise and fitness out of it.

I've read many similar accounts, especially for people on bents and trikes, that this is exactly what they're doing. I say, more power to them. But I'm not a competitive cyclist, I hate riding in any groups, and I only ride for commuting, exercise, and fun....by myself.
Let's put an HR monitor and power meter on an e-bike rider and see how much they really burn. My guess is maybe 20% of what a decent rider puts out, if that. They are spinning the pedals just enough to have the motor kick in. You don't get much exercise that way.
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Old 10-10-19, 01:40 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by zacster
Let's put an HR monitor and power meter on an e-bike rider and see how much they really burn. My guess is maybe 20% of what a decent rider puts out, if that. They are spinning the pedals just enough to have the motor kick in. You don't get much exercise that way.
The claims I've seen, and as far as I know, no studies have actually been done, is that many (not all) riders who are or were already pretty serious riders, are getting as much or more of a workout than they were before.

None of this applies to those who buy one to commute and don't pedal, or the locals who rent them just to tour around somewhere, so there are still a whole lot of people who might be buying ebikes that fall into the categories that are described above, but then, those people also don't tend to go on group rides.
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Old 10-10-19, 01:44 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by zacster
Let's put an HR monitor and power meter on an e-bike rider and see how much they really burn. My guess is maybe 20% of what a decent rider puts out, if that. They are spinning the pedals just enough to have the motor kick in. You don't get much exercise that way.
I'd love to see this, too. For average riders, not for people who ride in large part for fitness.

But that adds a grand to the price of an already expensive bike, for something that most buyers won't see value in. So I'm not holding my breath. But I'm a curious guy, and would love to see the data.
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Old 10-10-19, 04:30 PM
  #137  
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But an HR monitor does not cost a lot. If they were looking to get a workout they wouldn't be riding an ebike when you could just ride a bike and pedal, right?

I'd say that most people on an ebike are trying to avoid the workout.
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Old 10-10-19, 04:43 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by Notso_fastLane
The claims I've seen, and as far as I know, no studies have actually been done, is that many (not all) riders who are or were already pretty serious riders, are getting as much or more of a workout than they were before.

None of this applies to those who buy one to commute and don't pedal, or the locals who rent them just to tour around somewhere, so there are still a whole lot of people who might be buying ebikes that fall into the categories that are described above, but then, those people also don't tend to go on group rides.
I am dubious. One of the eye-openers about getting a power meter is when you see how much you coast during a typical ride, or how much your power goes down while riding in the bunch, or even with a slight tailwind.
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Old 10-10-19, 05:06 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by Notso_fastLane
The claims I've seen, and as far as I know, no studies have actually been done, is that many (not all) riders who are or were already pretty serious riders, are getting as much or more of a workout than they were before.
I know it's only anecdotal but a friend who was a regular group rider and did centuries, short tours, etc., bought an e-bike because, in his words, he didn't want to work that hard anymore. He has gained a little weight and I'm sure if he got on a road bike he would not be near the level he was before e.

Our club (400 members) has banned e-bikes. I had nothing to do with this decision and I'm ok with e-bikes on group rides if the riders are not idiots.
I am also against idiots on regular bikes.
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Old 10-10-19, 06:04 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by zacster
But an HR monitor does not cost a lot. If they were looking to get a workout they wouldn't be riding an ebike when you could just ride a bike and pedal, right?

I'd say that most people on an ebike are trying to avoid the workout.
I think you're half right. A lot of people want to ride for various reasons, but are intimidated by hills.

You could use the same logic to say if people wanted a workout they could skip the bike and run. People can want whatever sort of exercise floats their boat.
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Old 10-10-19, 06:10 PM
  #141  
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As long as you can still jam a pump between the spokes, let'em come.
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Old 10-10-19, 08:01 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by sheddle
Also if I had anything resembling a hot take, it's that while ebikes seem cool, I don't quite get the point of the ones made to look exactly like road bikes.
To me it depends on the amount of power the motor puts out. If you're talking something like the Domane+ then yeah, it's a moped. The ones with the light 250w motors and small battery packs (e.g. Pinarello Dyodo, Orbea Gain) look like road bikes because they work like road bikes when the motor is off. A 26/27 lb bike isn't race competitive but it's completely fine for exercise or as part of a group ride.
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Old 10-10-19, 09:56 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by caloso
I am dubious. One of the eye-openers about getting a power meter is when you see how much you coast during a typical ride, or how much your power goes down while riding in the bunch, or even with a slight tailwind.
Can't speak for everyone but I bought a Copenhagen wheel a couple of years back for occasional commuting use. I did a few rides with the wheel on my Tarmac which includes an SRM. My average power for the rides was about the same as any commute but the time was about 5-10 min less and the NP was a little lower.

If I use the wheel it's at the end of the week on Thur or Fri when I'm getting tired and want an easier day before a bigger ride on Sat. When commuting I usually just pedal as hard as I feel like. I average between 180 and 220+W, usually higher when I'm fresh and lower towards the end of the week. If I use the electric wheel I don't think I pedal any differently, I just go faster.
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Old 10-11-19, 08:27 AM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by gregf83
Can't speak for everyone but I bought a Copenhagen wheel a couple of years back for occasional commuting use. I did a few rides with the wheel on my Tarmac which includes an SRM. My average power for the rides was about the same as any commute but the time was about 5-10 min less and the NP was a little lower.

If I use the wheel it's at the end of the week on Thur or Fri when I'm getting tired and want an easier day before a bigger ride on Sat. When commuting I usually just pedal as hard as I feel like. I average between 180 and 220+W, usually higher when I'm fresh and lower towards the end of the week. If I use the electric wheel I don't think I pedal any differently, I just go faster.
How much power does the wheel add?
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Old 10-11-19, 08:38 AM
  #145  
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I'd actually kind of like to see someone show up to a fast ride on an e-bike, and watch them get their feelings hurt, these guys don't mess around.
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Old 10-11-19, 09:16 AM
  #146  
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Did you ever post a thread that you expected to gain very little notice . . . only to see it blow up into SIX PAGES of anger, passion, debate, etc? I'm amazed.

I don't ride an e-bike, but I can foresee a day (hopefully many years from now), when I would ride one. Our local bike group has a dedicated core of riders who have ridden together multiple times per week, just about every week, for over ten years. One of those guys had to have a heart procedure last winter. He's no longer as fast as he once was. Rather than see him leave the group, I wish he would ride an e-bike and hang with us. As it stands, he's dropped on every group ride and I can see him eventually giving up on trying to ride with the group. His heart is there, but his body can't keep up. I don't want to trundle along at his current pace, but I don't want to lose him from the group, either. He's an experienced cyclist and a good bike handler. His riding an e-bike would make everybody happier.

But again, I don't think the geezer market is where most of these are going to be sold. In Europe -- and in Saturday's ride -- most of the riders of e-bikes are under 35 years of age. They don't buy them because they have to. They buy them because they want to. They are not as threatening (or expensive to license, insure, etc.) as a motorcycle. They aren't as much work as a bicycle. The Millennial generation is buying e-bikes for the same reason we buy regular bikes. Because they're fun. (I think it's going to be pretty hard to convince them they shouldn't have fun.)
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Old 10-11-19, 10:45 AM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by caloso
How much power does the wheel add?
I think maybe 100 or so on the flats and upwards of 350 for short hills. I have a bridge with a 5%, 1.3km hill and the wheel adds 300-400 on that hill but I doubt it could sustain that power much longer than a couple of minutes. For me, it 'flattens' the hills so my power output tends to be steadier than if I'm riding without it. Normally, I would go maybe 50% harder on the hills.
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Old 10-11-19, 10:52 AM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo
I don't ride an e-bike, but I can foresee a day (hopefully many years from now), when I would ride one. Our local bike group has a dedicated core of riders who have ridden together multiple times per week, just about every week, for over ten years. One of those guys had to have a heart procedure last winter. He's no longer as fast as he once was. Rather than see him leave the group, I wish he would ride an e-bike and hang with us. As it stands, he's dropped on every group ride and I can see him eventually giving up on trying to ride with the group. His heart is there, but his body can't keep up. I don't want to trundle along at his current pace, but I don't want to lose him from the group, either. He's an experienced cyclist and a good bike handler. His riding an e-bike would make everybody happier.
We have a number of riders in our group who have 'aged out' over the years. They tend to ride slower amongst themselves or solo and meet back at the coffee shop after a ride. While I can see the attraction of adding power to keep up with the group I think it's best not to. Along with lack of power comes slower reflexes and other issues that an e-bike won't fix. I don't think e-bikes belong in a group. Husband and wife riding side by side - no problem; riding 6-12" off a wheel in a paceline - plenty of opportunity for problems.
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Old 10-11-19, 12:38 PM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by gregf83
We have a number of riders in our group who have 'aged out' over the years. They tend to ride slower amongst themselves or solo and meet back at the coffee shop after a ride. While I can see the attraction of adding power to keep up with the group I think it's best not to. Along with lack of power comes slower reflexes and other issues that an e-bike won't fix. I don't think e-bikes belong in a group. Husband and wife riding side by side - no problem; riding 6-12" off a wheel in a paceline - plenty of opportunity for problems.
Totally agree.
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Old 10-11-19, 10:53 PM
  #150  
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Electric Bikes are the Future of Transportation
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